MalcSB
Well-Known Member
She has Bengali parents and had provisional Bengali citizenship up to the age of 21 which has lapsed as she did not take it up - her choice on the face of it. She has made herself stateless.
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Shamima Begum (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sky Blue Pete
- Start date
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
So you didn’t admit she didn’t actually have Bengali citizenship then. The decision will inevitably be overturned at the ECHR.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Admit? What is this, a court of law.
To repeat myself, she had provisional Bengali citizenship until the age of 21.
The ECHR should go fuck themselves.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
She didn’t actually have the citizenship though; she’d have been entitled to apply but she didn’t actually have it, which is key here. I’m not sure they’d have been obliged to give her citizenship either.
At this point it’s political rather than legal, so the UK courts have essentially left it up to the ECHR to decide.
She’s a UK citizen first and foremost and is the UK’s responsibility.
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SkyBlueCharlie9
Well-Known Member
Cant just sweep the law away because it doesnt suit you. Im not sure she technically committed a crime, but she is British and also not a risk now and she was a child when she was groomed/ brainwashed. As with rioters, we need to learn from her to help understand grooming problem, educate people and try and make the country safer even if a fraction. Tory government weren't interested in this at all though just typical reactionary 'kick her out' mentality or 'lock her up' which helps no one in longer run and actually breeds more hatred and grooming. Did the government go for the people that exploited and groomed her, maybe even within her local community?
Can't understand why people don't grasp the need to learn and progress and why people on the right are so obsessed with Shamina Begum.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Starmer has the same view as the previous government
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
She
When did courts start to decide political issues and not legal ones?
And no, she is not a British citizen. She was but is no longer.
So you admit it was her choice not to take up / formalise her Bangladeshi citizenship.
When did courts start to decide political issues and not legal ones?
And no, she is not a British citizen. She was but is no longer.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
You use the terms groomed / brainwashed when the correct term is radicalised.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It's not a case of formalising it; she would have had to apply for it officially, and even then, it could have been denied.
How would she have applied for/got hold of/sent off legal documents to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship while being held in a prison camp in Syria?
Technically, as she didn't have another citizenship at that point, it shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
How did she
At the time, as far as I have read, there would have been no legal basis for Bangladesh to have not confirmed her provisional citizenship.
How did she conduct her legal business in the UK?
At the time, as far as I have read, there would have been no legal basis for Bangladesh to have not confirmed her provisional citizenship.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I'm pretty sure I read that they'd have been able to reject it. Regardless, though, she didn't actually have citizenship at the time her UK one was revoked.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
She was 15!
Skybluekyle
Well-Known Member
I admit, I have, and still do to an extent, flip-flop on this one, past-Kyle used to be militant in his view that Begum gave up her right to be called a British citizen, like me, when she joined a group that hated anyone that wasn't one of them, even Muslims if they weren't "the right type of Muslim", that didn't conform to their ideology. However, I have actually changed my view as I have gotten older and think that we should not just wash our hands of Begum and deprive her of her nationality like that, that is cowardly.
I will forgive my past-self as she has not exactly said anything that would engender sympathy, she's not exactly seemed remorseful of joining a cult that despises everyone that is not them, and I still have my reservations, but it's about doing what is right. I do actually think the Government has a case that she may pose a national security risk, as I said, she has not disagreed with some of the founding principles of ISIS, but the country must do the right thing.
It's easy just to say "she's not our problem", and I am also not completely sold on the fact she was "brainwashed", at 15 years old, you should know right from wrong, but I sit here in my ivory tower, so I do not hold too much weight to my opinion. I personally think she should be given back her citizenship and given the right to a fair trial in this country if she has broken a law. I know I may sound like I am on the fence, but I can see both angles, but I do not think deprivation of citizenship is the right thing to do in any case.
I will forgive my past-self as she has not exactly said anything that would engender sympathy, she's not exactly seemed remorseful of joining a cult that despises everyone that is not them, and I still have my reservations, but it's about doing what is right. I do actually think the Government has a case that she may pose a national security risk, as I said, she has not disagreed with some of the founding principles of ISIS, but the country must do the right thing.
It's easy just to say "she's not our problem", and I am also not completely sold on the fact she was "brainwashed", at 15 years old, you should know right from wrong, but I sit here in my ivory tower, so I do not hold too much weight to my opinion. I personally think she should be given back her citizenship and given the right to a fair trial in this country if she has broken a law. I know I may sound like I am on the fence, but I can see both angles, but I do not think deprivation of citizenship is the right thing to do in any case.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
At 15 years old in the wrong hands you can essentially be utterly brainwashed to believe anything.
We just saw how a load of British adults have been brainwashed into thinking anyone not white is a murderer and a terrorist and should be burned alive, so it’s not a giant leap to consider.
Skybluekyle
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I get that, but there is a reason why the criminal age of responsibility is 10 years old, you should know right from wrong by that age.
I do agree that she may well have been easily influenced, but I am not completely sold that she was just brainwashed and therefore bares no responsibility for her actions (not saying that is what you're saying, by the way).
But, with that being said, she may well not be a criminal, but, same as the Supreme Court maybe right that it is legal to remove her citizenship, it doesn't mean I agree with it, nor that Begum may not be criminally liable to anything but may not have acted appropriately.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
The human brain doesn’t even get fully developed until 25 or so.. in the absence of influence you’re right, but with brainwashing going on, at that age you’re gonna end up doing exactly what you’re taught to do, and think you’re doing a good thing.
I’m not sticking up for her by the way, just saying that the kind of brainwashing she had would have been very powerful indeed for someone that age.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Nearly old enough to vote in Labour’s opinion.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
And yet Labour seems to want to give 16 year olds the vote.
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Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
what the fuck does that have to do with it?
What if she younger when the brainwashing started say thirteen or fourteen?
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Can
Any more excuses? Perhaps it started in the womb.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
I’m sure you can see the link.
Skybluekyle
Well-Known Member
She'd still be old enough to know right from wrong, plus, how can you say she was definitely brainwashed?
I am not saying I disagree, I just think we should remain open-minded, hence why I think she should come back to face the courts if found to have violated the law.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You really are a cretin
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
Gynnsthetonic
Well-Known Member
I think she actually knows shes made a mistake and just wants to get on with her life in Britain and she'd be closey monitored anyway. There's probably 10s of thousands far worse than Begum walking the streets freely.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yeah agreed. Imagine if we were all held to our beliefs at 15, what a world it would be.
Seems weird that the one criminal we can kick out the country is a British citizen.
Gynnsthetonic
Well-Known Member
I don't even know what crime she's committed, it's like the government saying look how tough we are while letting all and sundry in with no criminal checks
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Technically she hasn’t been kicked out, she left of her own accord and has been refused readmission. legally she isn’t a British citizen.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Being a member of a proscribed terrorist group is my understanding,
Sounds like a case is building then?