The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (95 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

Hardly Ian. The EU dictated the sequencing and timing of everything. They wouldn’t even discuss us leaving until we triggered article 50 (which started the clock ticking) They then put in place the fact that NI border backstop and divorce bill would need to be agreed before discussing a trade deal. If done concurrently the backstop probably wouldn’t be the issue it is today

Barnier (and the solidarity of the EU countries staying silent) have run rings around our shambles of shit Parliament. They could easily have had 27 countries pulling in different directions but haven’t because they knew the value of solidarity. Unfortunately when the time came for parliament to deliver they have been found wanting.

Ps Have a quick look at the history of EU referendums and countries that voted against treaties. There’s only ever one winner

One of the Brexit heavyweights was under the impression the UK could do individual trade deals with EU countries, when you have that level of incompetence leading negotiations what do you expect? To many people the way it has panned out has not been a surprise, were you really expecting all of the Billy Big Bollocks stuff like buying cars, cheese and wine to have an impact?

The EU also saw through the British divide and rule tactics, which have served the country well historically and they knew were always going to be attempted.

If you think the EU is bad, just wait until they move onto trying to get a trade deal with the USA...

 

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[skybluetony176]

Hardly Ian. The EU dictated the sequencing and timing of everything. They wouldn’t even discuss us leaving until we triggered article 50 (which started the clock ticking) They then put in place the fact that NI border backstop and divorce bill would need to be agreed before discussing a trade deal. If done concurrently the backstop probably wouldn’t be the issue it is today

Barnier (and the solidarity of the EU countries staying silent) have run rings around our shambles of shit Parliament. They could easily have had 27 countries pulling in different directions but haven’t because they knew the value of solidarity. Unfortunately when the time came for parliament to deliver they have been found wanting.

Ps Have a quick look at the history of EU referendums and countries that voted against treaties. There’s only ever one winner

You do know that the process of triggering article 50 and the following timetable is EU constitution, written by Brit Lord Kerr and voted in by EU members including ourselves? Nothing has been dictated. It’s an agreed process agreed long before brexit was even dreamt up.

 

[Ian1779]

Hardly Ian. The EU dictated the sequencing and timing of everything. They wouldn’t even discuss us leaving until we triggered article 50 (which started the clock ticking) They then put in place the fact that NI border backstop and divorce bill would need to be agreed before discussing a trade deal. If done concurrently the backstop probably wouldn’t be the issue it is today

Barnier (and the solidarity of the EU countries staying silent) have run rings around our shambles of shit Parliament. They could easily have had 27 countries pulling in different directions but haven’t because they knew the value of solidarity. Unfortunately when the time came for parliament to deliver they have been found wanting.

Ps Have a quick look at the history of EU referendums and countries that voted against treaties. There’s only ever one winner

Yet from Day 1 we talked up how this would ‘be the easiest trade deal in history’

Our arrogance has contributed to our demise.

I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with the notion that the EU may be acting in a way to put off future members from attempting to leave.

 

[CCFCSteve]

He’s been stifled by his own false promises. Unfortunately he’s lied himself into a position where he’s been exposed to be a liar. Even his own brother can’t stand by him.

That’s rubbish Tony. He’s not done things the way I would have but we were given two previous extensions and fuck all has happened until Johnson came in.

The facts as I see it are:

MPs voted for article 50 meaning we left with or without a deal in two years.
Limited ‘no deal’ planning undertaken.
WA rejected three times - even by those that are up in arms at the risk of ‘no deal’
Extension provided - remember macron only wanted short one as he knew given time our fuckwit MPs would continue to prevaricate.
Johnson comes in - steps up ‘no deal’ planning, gets indication that there could be minor movement on WA.
Johnson tried to brings matters to a head (incorrectly in my view) by prologuing Parliament over conference season.
Panic stations from MPs (most of which want to remain) and we hand every last drop of leverage to EU.

Out of interest, other than not proroguing, what would you have done differently to Johnson (taking into consideration the above) ?

Would you seriously not accept a revised WA (with alternative/tweaks to backstop) being put to Parliament ?

 

[skybluetony176]

One of the Brexit heavyweights was under the impression the UK could do individual trade deals with EU countries, when you have that level of incompetence leading negotiations what do you expect? To many people the way it has panned out has not been a surprise, were you really expecting all of the Billy Big Bollocks stuff like buying cars, cheese and wine to have an impact?

The EU also saw through the British divide and rule tactics, which have served the country well historically and they knew were always going to be attempted.

If you think the EU is bad, just wait until they move onto trying to get a trade deal with the USA...

The US defence secretary was at No 10 today trying to dictate the terms of what our relationship with Israel should be. The warning signs, as if they were needed, are there.

 

[CCFCSteve]

You do know that the process of triggering article 50 and the following timetable is EU constitution, written by Brit Lord Kerr and voted in by EU members including ourselves? Nothing has been dictated. It’s an agreed process agreed long before brexit was even dreamt up.

I’m aware that the triggering of article 50 and timetable is in the constitution. I’m not aware that the sequencing of events detailed above is in there ? Happy to be proved wrong

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Out of interest, other than not proroguing, what would you have done differently to Johnson (taking into consideration the above) ?

Call a second vote with a legal obligation to implement the outcome the following day. What really is the point in having a GE that is a referendum in all but name?

Cameron, May, and Porky-the ultimate Team Twat that will deflect the blame for their incompetence on Labour/the EU for years to come

 

[CCFCSteve]

Yet from Day 1 we talked up how this would ‘be the easiest trade deal in history’

Our arrogance has contributed to our demise.

I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with the notion that the EU may be acting in a way to put off future members from attempting to leave.

I agree that there have been plenty of comments that haven’t helped, however, much has been made of the trade deal comment and the fact is, it should be straight forward

We already have the same quality and standards as the EU and we import significantly more than we export so why should it be a problem ? The issue is around NI border and border controls in general ie ‘protecting the integrity of the single market’ as we like to be told

We haven’t even been allowed to discuss the trade deal yet though so why people keep bringing up that comment is a mystery

 

[skybluetony176]

That’s rubbish Tony. He’s not done things the way I would have but we were given two previous extensions and fuck all has happened until Johnson came in.

The facts as I see it are:

MPs voted for article 50 meaning we left with or without a deal in two years.
Limited ‘no deal’ planning undertaken.
WA rejected three times - even by those that are up in arms at the risk of ‘no deal’
Extension provided - remember macron only wanted short one as he knew given time our fuckwit MPs would continue to prevaricate.
Johnson comes in - steps up ‘no deal’ planning, gets indication that there could be minor movement on WA.
Johnson tried to brings matters to a head (incorrectly in my view) by prologuing Parliament over conference season.
Panic stations from MPs (most of which want to remain) and we hand every last drop of leverage to EU.

Out of interest, other than not proroguing, what would you have done differently to Johnson (taking into consideration the above) ?

Would you seriously not accept a revised WA (with alternative/tweaks to backstop) being put to Parliament ?

Do you know that under the BBC’s charter of impartiality BBC presenters are officially allowed to call Boris a lier and a racist because of his history of being sacked for lying and writing racists remarks in his own columns.

We haven’t left because Boris and his chumps voted against it. We’re now further away (technically not time scale) from leaving than we’ve ever been as a direct consequence of his actions. The truth is since the referendum result was announced every action Boris has taken has took us farther away from leaving and he’s concentrated that effort ten fold since winning the Tory leadership contest. In fact May got us nearer to leaving.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Call a second vote with a legal obligation to implement the outcome the following day. What really is the point in having a GE that is a referendum in all but name?

Cameron, May, and Porky-the ultimate Team Twat that will deflect the blame for their incompetence on Labour/the EU for years to come

Labour are in this as much as the Tories BSB, don’t let your political persuasion blind you to that. Their refusal to agree to the WA was political. It gave them everything they wanted yet they rejected it saying it was a ‘blind Brexit’, however, during the transition period they could’ve/would’ve had a say on any future trade agreement. Remember both main parties campaigned on leaving single market and customs union (as it was).

I’d happily have another referendum, anything to get this sorted one way or another.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Do you know that under the BBC’s charter of impartiality BBC presenters are officially allowed to call Boris a lier and a racist because of his history of being sacked for lying and writing racists remarks in his own columns.

We haven’t left because Boris and his chumps voted against it. We’re now further away (technically not time scale) from leaving than we’ve ever been as a direct consequence of his actions. The truth is since the referendum result was announced every action Boris has taken has took us farther away from leaving and he’s concentrated that effort ten fold since winning the Tory leadership contest. In fact May got us nearer to leaving.

To be fair he voted the third time, which if he was an ideological ‘no deal’ brexiteer he wouldn’t have.

He’s brought matters to a (messy) head but he’s not to blame for Brexit not being delivered

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m aware that the triggering of article 59 and timetable is in the constitution. I’m not aware that the sequencing of events detailed above is in there ? Happy to be proved wrong

All in here Steve

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Labour are in this as much as the Tories BSB, don’t let your political persuasion blind you to that. Their refusal to agree to the WA was political. It gave them everything they wanted yet they rejected it saying it was a ‘blind Brexit’, however, during the transition period they could’ve/would’ve had a say on any future trade agreement. Remember both main parties campaigned on leaving single market and customs union (as it was).

I’d happily have another referendum, anything to get this sorted one way or another.

Don’t think for a moment that I will refuse to criticise Labour when they fuck up. Another referendum is the best practical solution still available. Put ‘Leave means Leave’ to the test

 

[Ian1779]

I agree that there have been plenty of comments that haven’t helped, however, much has been made of the trade deal comment and the fact is, it should be straight forward

We already have the same quality and standards as the EU and we import significantly more than we export so why should it be a problem ? The issue is around NI border and border controls in general ie ‘protecting the integrity of the single market’ as we like to be told

We haven’t even been allowed to discuss the trade deal yet though so why people keep bringing up that comment is a mystery

It’s not a mystery as such. As I said we were far too arrogant in what we had to say prior to even sitting down at the table... it was Trump-esque at times and it handicapped the muppets from the start.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So the economy argument is dead. Unify Ireland - we can’t again surrender to bombs and bullets

But the Unionists would say that unifying Ireland is surrendering to bombs and bullets. It's basically giving the IRA exactly what they want. So how do you think the more extreme Unionists would respond....?

Not saying it's right, just it's what would happen. If you were in charge of this people would once again be dying in the streets of the UK and Ireland.

 

[skybluetony176]

To be fair he voted the third time, which if he was an ideological ‘no deal’ brexiteer he wouldn’t have.

He’s brought matters to a (messy) head but he’s not to blame for Brexit not being delivered

I think it’s became clear over the last week that the Brexit campaign he fronted was a Trojan horse for a no deal brexit for the disaster capitalist that back him. Did you know one of his major backers and donators has bet big on British business failing and the economy crashing after a no deal brexit and stands to gain hundreds of millions of pounds of Boris succeeds in delivering a no deal brexit? Same for Ferage backers.

 

[Sick Boy]

I agree that there have been plenty of comments that haven’t helped, however, much has been made of the trade deal comment and the fact is, it should be straight forward

We already have the same quality and standards as the EU and we import significantly more than we export so why should it be a problem ? The issue is around NI border and border controls in general ie ‘protecting the integrity of the single market’ as we like to be told

We haven’t even been allowed to discuss the trade deal yet though so why people keep bringing up that comment is a mystery

Because the UK is going to deregulate, unless you genuinely believe it’s going to retain the same standards as it has now?

It will be forced upon the country by the USA.

 

[djr8369]

It’s disappointing the amount of apparent pleasure people appear to be getting from what is the biggest political mess of our lifetimes. Most normal people I know (from both sides of the argument) just want this done and out the way, not just kicked into the long grass (again) which is what has just happened. The damage the continued uncertainty is doing is probably outweighing even a No Deal (which I have never wanted by the way) would do/have done.

Johnson might well be out of his depth, only time will tell but what the fuck is he supposed to do ? The country voted out, whether you agree with his methods or not, he’s at least trying to respect that decision, however, he’s been stifled by Parliament and now can’t hold an election because he can’t get the two thirds requirement. So we are at this impasse and now in the hands of the EU....is that really good news ?

Ps Looking around the Parliament I reckon there are plenty out their depth as MPs let alone PM.

The problem is no deal is just the start of a very long period of uncertainty. People may want it over but it’s not going to happen. This is just the end of the beginning.


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[djr8369]

Hardly Ian. The EU dictated the sequencing and timing of everything. They wouldn’t even discuss us leaving until we triggered article 50 (which started the clock ticking)

Because that’s the legal process. We should know, we were key in writing it.




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[Brighton Sky Blue]

But the Unionists would say that unifying Ireland is surrendering to bombs and bullets. It's basically giving the IRA exactly what they want. So how do you think the more extreme Unionists would respond....?

Not saying it's right, just it's what would happen. If you were in charge of this people would once again be dying in the streets of the UK and Ireland.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that Scotland/NI or both won’t be in the UK by the end of this century.

 

[Sick Boy]

I think it’s pretty safe to say that Scotland/NI or both won’t be in the UK by the end of this century.

Do you mean the next decade?

 

[skybluetony176]

Call a second vote with a legal obligation to implement the outcome the following day. What really is the point in having a GE that is a referendum in all but name?

Cameron, May, and Porky-the ultimate Team Twat that will deflect the blame for their incompetence on Labour/the EU for years to come

I’m all for this. Again it exposes his lies. If he’s serious about getting a deal do his job and get it then put his deal to the people in a referendum. A straight up Boris deal vs remain. If as I suspect he’s not playing with a straight bat then come clean and put no deal against remain.

Job done.

 

[djr8369]

That’s rubbish Tony. He’s not done things the way I would have but we were given two previous extensions and fuck all has happened until Johnson came in.

The facts as I see it are:

MPs voted for article 50 meaning we left with or without a deal in two years.
Limited ‘no deal’ planning undertaken.
WA rejected three times - even by those that are up in arms at the risk of ‘no deal’
Extension provided - remember macron only wanted short one as he knew given time our fuckwit MPs would continue to prevaricate.
Johnson comes in - steps up ‘no deal’ planning, gets indication that there could be minor movement on WA.
Johnson tried to brings matters to a head (incorrectly in my view) by prologuing Parliament over conference season.
Panic stations from MPs (most of which want to remain) and we hand every last drop of leverage to EU.

Out of interest, other than not proroguing, what would you have done differently to Johnson (taking into consideration the above) ?

Would you seriously not accept a revised WA (with alternative/tweaks to backstop) being put to Parliament ?

Fuck all has not happened until Johnson came in, that’s rubbish. Fuck all has happened since he came in, in terms of negotiations or moving along the process. He has made a lot of noise about stepping up no deal prep but in reality all they’ve done is allocate more funds and continued processes already in motion. The main thing he has achieved is dividing his own party and making us look like idiots.

We haven’t handed leverage to the EU, there was no leverage. It’s not a negation you can bully your way through. The red lines May laid down drastically limited the options available.


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[skybluetony176]

To be fair he voted the third time, which if he was an ideological ‘no deal’ brexiteer he wouldn’t have.

He’s brought matters to a (messy) head but he’s not to blame for Brexit not being delivered

The problem is Steve that every action has a reaction and what’s happened in Parliament this week is a direct reaction to his actions.

Did you see the documents that came out in court today? More proof of his lies and even in his own handwriting to remove any doubt.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Did you know one of his major backers and donators has bet big on British business failing and the economy crashing after a no deal brexit and stands to gain hundreds of millions of pounds of Boris succeeds in delivering a no deal brexit? Same for Ferage backers.

Do you know that under the BBC’s charter of impartiality BBC presenters are officially allowed to call Boris a lier and a racist because of his history of being sacked for lying and writing racists remarks in his own columns.

Did someone watch the Mash report?

 

[skybluetony176]

Fuck all has not happened until Johnson came in, that’s rubbish. Fuck all has happened since he came in, in terms of negotiations or moving along the process. He has made a lot of noise about stepping up no deal prep but in reality all they’ve done is allocate more funds and continued processes already in motion. The main thing he has achieved is dividing his own party and making us look like idiots.

We haven’t handed leverage to the EU, there was no leverage. It’s not a negation you can bully your way through. The red lines May laid down drastically limited the options available.


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Yep. Technically his (I say his, I mean Cummings) decision making since becoming PM has done nothing but turn back the Brexit clock. Never mind world king, he’s kicking the can down the road king.

 

[CCFCSteve]

All in here Steve

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

Thanks Tony....it’s no doubt a thrilling read !!! I had a quick skim through (I was going to make a joke about David Davies but won’t) and from what I can see I stand by my original points

The EU members refused to discuss anything until we triggered article 50. Yet it states in the attached that informal discussions could have taken place before notification ! (See procedure). This was part of the EU negotiation strategy.

In addition the WA was supposed to incorporate what the future relationship would look like, however, due to Barniers sequencing ie no trade discussions until WA agreed, it leaves out a major part of what could/should have been incorporated and has made a far bigger issue of the backstop. By that I mean if you have a trade deal agreed (or its major principles) no need for a backstop. Again this was part of the EUs negotiation strategy.

I’m not being difficult/funny by saying tell me if I’m wrong but please do.

People need to start looking at the bigger picture and accepting that however shit our negotiations have been the dice were loaded from the start and throw in the mix of a significant proportion of Parliament not willing to accept the result, it’s little wonder we are in the middle of a major shitstorm !

Ps do have a look into previous EU referendums. It’s why I voted leave (after a lot of agonising - I’m a cautious person at heart !). All I see is it happening again !

 

[Ian1779]

Of course they were loaded... we are 1 and they are 27.

 

[skybluetony176]

Did someone watch the Mash report?

I watch for Geoff Norcott in truth, I don’t find Nish Kumar particularly funny as either the presenter of the show or a stand up.

It does come to something though when an institution such as the BBC can’t reprimand a presenter for labelling the actual PM a liar and racist as a direct consequence of the actual PM’s own history. This isn’t Italy (I watch a lot of Stewart Lee also).

 

[CCFCSteve]

Of course they were loaded... we are 1 and they are 27.

You know what I mean though Ian.

 

[skybluetony176]

The EU members refused to discuss anything until we triggered article 50. Yet it states in the attached that informal discussions could have taken place before notification !

Yep, that was a poor show from the EU . I won’t be arguing that point.

I will make a comparison though. Boris and the Brexit Secretary met with some of the more prominent rebels on the morning before the vote and was asked directly by them if the government had a credible alternative to the back stop, they were told yes, they asked to see it as it may persuade them to vote with the government not against the government and were told that we could show you but we won’t. I’ll just remind you that this wasn’t school kids falsely bragging in the play ground, this was the actual PM in No 10 his official residence.

 

[CCFCSteve]

One of the Brexit heavyweights was under the impression the UK could do individual trade deals with EU countries, when you have that level of incompetence leading negotiations what do you expect? To many people the way it has panned out has not been a surprise, were you really expecting all of the Billy Big Bollocks stuff like buying cars, cheese and wine to have an impact?

The EU also saw through the British divide and rule tactics, which have served the country well historically and they knew were always going to be attempted.

If you think the EU is bad, just wait until they move onto trying to get a trade deal with the USA...

Not ignoring you Sick boy...

I’m not condoning some of the language used (or some of the idiot comments by our negotiating team) but the sentiment, in basic terms is correct ie no deal/no trade deal wouldn’t only be damaging to us but also major industries on the continent so why wouldn’t they want to do a sensible deal ?!

I’ve said numerous times before, Mays WA barring the potential of being trapped in a CU forever (I never believed this was the EUs intention but there should’ve been mechanisms to incentivise a quick trade deal to avoid the backstop ie the part of divorce bill that was not clearly defined as owed retained) wasn’t as bad a compromise as portrayed.

Following that I think there would have been a trade deal that would have been close to customs union type of arrangement which would have made far reaching trade deals (that differed from the ones the EU already has with those non EU countries) difficult. Again a compromise though.

As I’ve also said 100 times before....the extremes on both sides just won’t budge from their ideological unaccepting positions though !

 

[CCFCSteve]

Yep, that was a poor show from the EU . I won’t be arguing that point.

I will make a comparison though. Boris and the Brexit Secretary met with some of the more prominent rebels on the morning before the vote and was asked directly by them if the government had a credible alternative to the back stop, they were told yes, they asked to see it as it may persuade them to vote with the government not against the government and were told that we could show you but we won’t. I’ll just remind you that this wasn’t school kids falsely bragging in the play ground, this was the actual PM in No 10 his official residence.

I heard that, totally unacceptable

I might be naive but I am pretty sure Johnson wants a deal.

They should have provided detailed outline alternative arrangements for everyone to see. I think they do exist in relation to trade (people is trickier)

 

[Ian1779]

As I’ve also said 100 times before....the extremes on both sides just won’t budge from their ideological unaccepting positions though !

Agree with that.

 

[Evo1883]

Emily thornberry did well on QT, another step towards Labour taking a well deserved battering at the GE