The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (68 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

And you are intelligent enough to know that Brexit is much more than a passing phase. They are offering remainers exactly what they want.

And don't you mean that it was the first poll by YouGov that had them in the lead of Labour? And did you ignore the point it was straight after they said they would scrap Brexit? And the one they did before that only had Labour 1% ahead of the Lib Dems.

The sitting on the fence is costing Labour badly. Would you say the Guardian is a good enough source to quote?

Why the resurgent Liberal Democrats are Labour’s biggest headache

Certainly seems to back up everything I have said. Or shouldn't we believe the Guardian now?

Look at where Lib Dems will get votes. They are likely to increase vote share in London for example, but a lot of those Lab seats have big, big majorities, so the likelihood of turning them over is relatively low. The other main places are in Con/LD marginals. Their leader has a high probability of losing her seat.

It’s like the Brexit Party - polling in mid/high teens yet that translates to only 1 seat in most forecasts. They could have made gains in an alliance with Cons but now 31st Oct is probably off the table that’s out of the window.

It’s this complex geography that exists which means Labour has to find a balancing act between its voter base in the South and North.

 

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[shmmeee]

Of course there was enough remainers in parliament to push it through. The majority of MP's are for remain. That is why we aren't going forward on the matter.

And yes those pushing for remain has held it up. Exactly what I said. I will say it yet again. Those wanting to remain didn't want it as it would take us out of the EU. Those wanting to leave didn't want it as it would leave us tied to the EU.

So what is the fault of who? Are you blaming those who voted leave? As you know there is much more to it than that. Shall we start with 'call me Dave' Cameron buying votes by offering the referendum if he got in?

If the leavers had a plan for leaving we’d have been out by now.

Im not blaming people who votes anything. It was on the Leave politcians who have been pushing this for decades to know what they wanted.

They didn’t, because they’re the politicial version of Grendel: for nothing, against everything other people put forward.

So what we got was a load of “red lines” that we don’t want and nothing we do. May got that and then they realised it was shit and spat their dummy. Now their plan is literally “do nothing and figure it out later”.

 

[shmmeee]

Look at where Lib Dems will get votes. They are likely to increase vote share in London for example, but a lot of those Lab seats have big, big majorities, so the likelihood of turning them over is relatively low. The other main places are in Con/LD marginals. Their leader has a high probability of losing her seat.

It’s like the Brexit Party - polling in mid/high teens yet that translates to only 1 seat in most forecasts. They could have made gains in an alliance with Cons but now 31st Oct is probably off the table that’s out of the window.

It’s this complex geography that exists which means Labour has to find a balancing act between its voter base in the South and North.

Labour level with the Tories on the most recent polls? Where are they?

Ha. It was this ComRes from a couple of days ago but as I went to look I saw YouGov have just released one with Lab ten point behind! As I say, I’m not sure anyone knows.

 

[skybluetony176]

There were enough “Remainer” votes to get through. There’s a significant number of Labour MPs who will vote for a deal. It’s the insistence on pushing for No Deal that’s the hold up.

Again, Mays deal is the best available if you want your red lines. Yes it’s shit, because it’s based on a hare brained half baked idea. That’s the nature of Brexit.

The unicorn people were promised doesn’t exist and it’s not Remainers fault.

Please rewrite but this time blame the 48% who didn’t vote for this mess and exonerate the 52% that did vote for this mess. When will people learn that the majority don’t have to take ownership of their vote and it’s all the minority’s fault.

 

[Grendel]

Labour level with the Tories on the most recent polls? Where are they?

There’s one. The real key is the Brexit party if they didn’t exist the Tories would have a significant lead which says a lot given the state of the party

 

[skybluetony176]

There’s one. The real key is the Brexit party if they didn’t exist the Tories would have a significant lead which says a lot given the state of the party

That must boil your piss because from your perspective all it really shows is that “the man” is putting his lust for attention before the country. Again, from your perspective.

 

[shmmeee]

Please rewrite but this time blame the 48% who didn’t vote for this mess and exonerate the 52% that did vote for this mess. When will people learn that the majority don’t have to take ownership of their vote and it’s all the minority’s fault.

No voters are to blame. It’s not their job to legislate. It’s entirely on the ERG and the DUP.

 

[skybluetony176]

No voters are to blame. It’s not their job to legislate. It’s entirely on the ERG and the DUP.

And that is the great irony. Leavers are so busy pointing the finger at remainers they fail to acknowledge that if the ERG had have voted for May’s deal we would have left in March as per the original timetable. I think even without the DUP vote there was still enough opposition votes to get brexit done. IIRC.

I distinctly remember seeing leave paper headlines when the white paper came out saying it was a betrayal and then a week or two later saying that the opposition had betrayed the people by voting against it.

 

[Astute]

Look at where Lib Dems will get votes. They are likely to increase vote share in London for example, but a lot of those Lab seats have big, big majorities, so the likelihood of turning them over is relatively low. The other main places are in Con/LD marginals. Their leader has a high probability of losing her seat.

It’s like the Brexit Party - polling in mid/high teens yet that translates to only 1 seat in most forecasts. They could have made gains in an alliance with Cons but now 31st Oct is probably off the table that’s out of the window.

It’s this complex geography that exists which means Labour has to find a balancing act between its voter base in the South and North.

I din't necessarily disagree with you. But the lower the polls the possibility of a poor showing in an election would be. Polls are just an indicator.

But as you know I have been droning on about the Corbyn effect on Labour votes. It is happening. And the longer he sits on the fence where others say exactly what they want the worse it will get.

 

[Astute]

If the leavers had a plan for leaving we’d have been out by now.

We are still in because the remainers won't let it happen. The remainers include the majority of MP's and Bercow. Those in charge of the EU have taken full advantage of the diatribe coming out of the commons.

 

[Astute]

Ha. It was this ComRes from a couple of days ago but as I went to look I saw YouGov have just released one with Lab ten point behind! As I say, I’m not sure anyone knows.

looks like they had a one off. Went on their site and this is what they say

 

[shmmeee]

We are still in because the remainers won't let it happen. The remainers include the majority of MP's and Bercow. Those in charge of the EU have taken full advantage of the diatribe coming out of the commons.

This is just incorrect. Bercow can’t vote and those you are calling “Remain MPs” mostly voted for the deal. Clarke, Stewart, Hammond all voted for it. JRM, Francis, etc voted against it.

Remember before Boris fucked it the Tories has a majority. They shouldn’t need to rely on opposition votes.

 

[shmmeee]

looks like they had a one off. Went on their site and this is what they say

View attachment 13112

thats the Britain elects poll of polls, not ComRes.

ComRes have consistently has Lab within margin of error of the Tories.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

This is just incorrect. Bercow can’t vote and those you are calling “Remain MPs” mostly voted for the deal. Clarke, Stewart, Hammond all voted for it. JRM, Francis, etc voted against it.

I was genuinely shocked when I realised Clarke of all people had been voting for us to leave the EU.

What kind of world are we in when he votes for us to leave, while Rees-Mogg rebels and votes to keep us in!

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

There’s one. The real key is the Brexit party if they didn’t exist the Tories would have a significant lead which says a lot given the state of the party

And if the Lib Dems and Greens didn't exist Labour would be comfortably ahead, and that's not taking into account the Scots and Welsh National Parties. There are more left wing parties than right so the left vote is always more split up.

Tories only seem to ever have one major challenger on the right and they tend to be such nut jobs for all but the most extreme they aren't an alternative. BNP were replaced by UKIP who've now been replaced by Brexit.

It would be like Labours only challenger being the Socialist party.

 

[Grendel]

And if the Lib Dems and Greens didn't exist Labour would be comfortably ahead, and that's not taking into account the Scots and Welsh National Parties. There are more left wing parties than right so the left vote is always more split up.

Tories only seem to ever have one major challenger on the right and they tend to be such nut jobs for all but the most extreme they aren't an alternative. BNP were replaced by UKIP who've now been replaced by Brexit.

It would be like Labours only challenger being the Socialist party.

No they wouldn’t as many Lib Dem voters would never vote for labour

Lib Dem policies have zero alignment with labour - they are Tory light and ab alternative in the south west and Home Counties - Brexit are a one issue party

The real clue to real real intent is the follow up question regarding who would people have as prime minister - Johnson has more than Corbyn and Swinson put together

Corbyn when I last checked had a popularity rating of -65 which is truly astonishing

 

[shmmeee]

And if the Lib Dems and Greens didn't exist Labour would be comfortably ahead, and that's not taking into account the Scots and Welsh National Parties. There are more left wing parties than right so the left vote is always more split up.

Tories only seem to ever have one major challenger on the right and they tend to be such nut jobs for all but the most extreme they aren't an alternative. BNP were replaced by UKIP who've now been replaced by Brexit.

It would be like Labours only challenger being the Socialist party.

More like CPGB than Socialist.

The right are an “away from” ideology which makes them easy to rally around. They’re just in opposition to pretty much any changes.

The left have to propose changes and that’s where the splits and arguments start. This is the Brexiters problem: they’ve been forced to move from whinging on the sidelines to putting forward a plan for governance and they’ve immediately shit the bed.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No they wouldn’t as many Lib Dem voters would never vote for labour

Lib Dem policies have zero alignment with labour - they are Tory light and ab alternative in the south west and Home Counties - Brexit are a one issue party

The real clue to real real intent is the follow up question regarding who would people have as prime minister - Johnson has more than Corbyn and Swinson put together

Corbyn when I last checked had a popularity rating of -65 which is truly astonishing

The Lib Dems were set up to be a 'middle ground' but they lean more towards the left than right. They predominantly want change and on the whole favour more social equality policies, which is the opposite to most 'conservative' thinking.

You've said on here before most Lib Dem votes come from students, who beforehand had largely been Labour voters.

Using who people would have as PM in the modern climate can be a false flag - it's a personality led choice rather than policy because many people feel the political system is broken. For all his monumental failings. Alexander has been pretty good at making people like him through his buffoonery so people ignore the less pleasant sides of his character. But as his tenure as PM goes on I think people will start to tire of the comedy character 'Boris' he's created and want someone competent (not that they're likely to get it from any party frankly) - it looks like many are starting to tire of him already and he's only been in the job a month!

 

[shmmeee]

Boris Johnson's tax plans will place billions of pounds into the pockets of Britain's richest people

Willow de Peeple

We all voted for tax cuts for billionaires, right? That’s what the Brexit masses wanted? Stick it to those Establishment Elites by handing them tax cuts?

The Lib Dems were set up to be a 'middle ground' but they lean more towards the left than right. They predominantly want change and on the whole favour more social equality policies, which is the opposite to most 'conservative' thinking.

You've said on here before most Lib Dem votes come from students, who beforehand had largely been Labour voters.

Using who people would have as PM in the modern climate can be a false flag - it's a personality led choice rather than policy because many people feel the political system is broken. For all his monumental failings. Alexander has been pretty good at making people like him through his buffoonery so people ignore the less pleasant sides of his character. But as his tenure as PM goes on I think people will start to tire of the comedy character 'Boris' he's created and want someone competent (not that they're likely to get it from any party frankly) - it looks like many are starting to tire of him already and he's only been in the job a month!

Have to disagree. IMO left and right is about economics not social policy and the Libs are very much right wing there.

 

[Astute]

This is just incorrect. Bercow can’t vote and those you are calling “Remain MPs” mostly voted for the deal. Clarke, Stewart, Hammond all voted for it. JRM, Francis, etc voted against it.

Remember before Boris fucked it the Tories has a majority. They shouldn’t need to rely on opposition votes.

This is incorrect.

Those who voted to accept were mainly Tories under orders. Naming a few who are remain doesn't make what you are saying right. That is unless the Tories have suddenly become remain and the rest want out.

 

[Astute]

thats the Britain elects poll of polls, not ComRes.

ComRes have consistently has Lab within margin of error of the Tories.

Has anybody else in the world got them as close?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Boris Johnson's tax plans will place billions of pounds into the pockets of Britain's richest people

Willow de Peeple

We all voted for tax cuts for billionaires, right? That’s what the Brexit masses wanted? Stick it to those Establishment Elites by handing them tax cuts?



Have to disagree. IMO left and right is about economics not social policy and the Libs are very much right wing there.

IMO you can have left/right wing economic and left/right wing social. Lib Dems economics is more right wing, social is more left.

What about thought on things like abortion, homosexuality, sexism etc? These have absolutely no relation whatsoever to economic policy. But someone anti-abortion or homophobic or mysogynistic would be thought of as 'right wing'. The rise in 'right-wing extremism' is based on attacks on different race or religious groups - it has no basis in economic opinion.

 

[djr8369]

Boris Johnson's tax plans will place billions of pounds into the pockets of Britain's richest people

Willow de Peeple

We all voted for tax cuts for billionaires, right? That’s what the Brexit masses wanted? Stick it to those Establishment Elites by handing them tax cuts?



Have to disagree. IMO left and right is about economics not social policy and the Libs are very much right wing there.

Economics and politics are intertwined and I don’t think it’s right to try and base the political spectrum on economics alone.

You can be social liberal but a libertarian economically which puts you to the right on economics.


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[djr8369]

This is incorrect.

Those who voted to accept were mainly Tories under orders. Naming a few who are remain doesn't make what you are saying right. That is unless the Tories have suddenly become remain and the rest want out.

Tbf what he’s said is factually correct but you don’t want him to cherry pick examples to support his view while doing it yourself.


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[Astute]

Boris Johnson's tax plans will place billions of pounds into the pockets of Britain's richest people

Willow de Peeple

We all voted for tax cuts for billionaires, right? That’s what the Brexit masses wanted? Stick it to those Establishment Elites by handing them tax cuts?

Don't worry. We voted leave and it doesn't look to be happening. So does that mean if we vote for tax cuts for the rich that it also won't happen?

 

[Grendel]

Hello hello

Sir John Major warns Boris Johnson could use 'political chicanery' to force through no-deal Brexit

 

[Astute]

16 rebel Labour MP's wanted to be able to vote for the so called May deal.

Rebel Labour MPs call for vote on Theresa May's final Brexit deal

 

[shmmeee]

This is incorrect.

Those who voted to accept were mainly Tories under orders. Naming a few who are remain doesn't make what you are saying right. That is unless the Tories have suddenly become remain and the rest want out.

again. You blamed Bercow, he can’t vote.

You blamed “Remain MPs” I pointed out the rebels were Brexiters.

The fact the opposition opposed the government isn’t the story. It was the scale of the rebellion that stopped Mays Deal passing.

She had a majority, she didn’t need to get opposition votes.

 

[shmmeee]

Don't worry. We voted leave and it doesn't look to be happening. So does that mean if we vote for tax cuts for the rich that it also won't happen?

Stop. Literally no one is saying we won’t leave apart from the Lib Dem’s. We’ll only not leave if that’s what people vote for in a referendum. And even the Libs will only do it if they win an election on a manifesto promise of remain.

 

[Astute]

again. You blamed Bercow, he can’t vote.

You blamed “Remain MPs” I pointed out the rebels were Brexiters.

The fact the opposition opposed the government isn’t the story. It was the scale of the rebellion that stopped Mays Deal passing.

She had a majority, she didn’t need to get opposition votes.

Ah so Bercow has had no say in any matter. He has caused more shit than anyone else.

I said none of them wanted the so called May deal. So hiw have I now blamed the Brexiteers or remainers?

May didn't have the majority. That is why it has been difficult to do anything.

 

[skybluetony176]

Ah so Bercow has had no say in any matter. He has caused more shit than anyone else.

I said none of them wanted the so called May deal. So hiw have I now blamed the Brexiteers or remainers?

May didn't have the majority. That is why it has been difficult to do anything.

May did have a majority.

 

[Astute]

Stop. Literally no one is saying we won’t leave apart from the Lib Dem’s. We’ll only not leave if that’s what people vote for in a referendum. And even the Libs will only do it if they win an election on a manifesto promise of remain.

Does it look to be happening? Over three years later it still doesn't look to be happening.

It looks like the only way of leaving is without a deal. So they pass a new law that says we can't leave without a deal. They won't vote something through with the backstop. The EU says the backstop must remain.

Can you honestly see any end to this?

 

[shmmeee]

Does it look to be happening? Over three years later it still doesn't look to be happening.

It looks like the only way of leaving is without a deal. So they pass a new law that says we can't leave without a deal. They won't vote something through with the backstop. The EU says the backstop must remain.

Can you honestly see any end to this?

Utter nonsense.

We need a referendum to make it clear what the actual will of the actual people is then that’ll be done.

Or we need a barely competent PM who doesn’t piss off everyone needed to get a vote through on a deal.

The fact you’re whining that the biggest post war project hasn’t been planned from scratch and implemented inside of three years suggests a massive naivety about either the scale of the project or governments standard workings.

It’d be like asking why HS2 hasn’t happened yet.

 

[dutchman]

Utter nonsense.

We need a referendum to make it clear what the actual will of the actual people is then that’ll be done.

We've already had one. Your side doesn't accept the result and never will if the result goes against you so holding another one is pointless.

 

[skybluetony176]

We've already had one. Your side doesn't accept the result and never will if the result goes against you so holding another one is pointless.

The one we had was advisory and wasn’t legally binding. Make the next one legally binding. It really isn’t that difficult.