The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (35 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
You are funny.

You are right. I don't like Juncker. He is a twat. He has always been out for what is best for Luxembourg and himself. He doesn't care about the residents of the EU. Just his visions.

So what don't I like about the EU? Run properly it would be great. But it isn't. Too much bureaucracy. Too many unvoted for people just in it to make money. Astronomical pensions for all. Golden goodbyes for all. And it costs us billions a year to be a part of it.

Cameron wanted to see about changes. Juncker slapped him down. Publicly. Just days before the vote. Well done Juncker.

The EU already has a lot of Tariff free GSP scheme deals in place around the world. India being one of them. We now hear from India that relaxing control of the movement of people between India and the UK needs to be better than it currently is as an EU member state, because the EU has tight controls on this. So how are we going to get a better deal out of India than we currently have? We already have a free trade agreement with them as EU members and strict control of immigration again as an EU member state. I don’t doubt we’ll get a free trade agreement but at what cost? If India gets their way it seems to mean excepting higher immigration from India. Sort of defeats the point of brexit doesn’t it? You’re moaning about EU immigrants causing a housing shortage is that just going to change to Asian immigrants causing a housing shortage?

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
Just let him continue. I like to get the version from someone who knows everything.

I’m from a Northern Irish border county and indeed border town family. What would you like to know? We’re even Protestants so I can even put a pro UK stance on it if you want.

Ashdown · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
No, we don’t know how good or bad it will be, but what we do know is that it is very likely that it will be bad for both sides in the short term. The difference being, that I don’t think it is worth the risk to go through all this whilst not knowing that we will be better off in the end. Remain and reform would not be plain sailing, but the risks are not as great as leave and hope for the best.

Remain and reform..............and there is the major stumbling block. These pricks in Brussels have demonstrated what little respect for us they have throughout all this charade, so what makes anyone think they would make any concessions to British requirements. It's blatantly obvious they want the governance to come from central Europe and a good chunk of the money to come from the UK. Fuck 'em !

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Grendel said:
An extensive survey conducted by the Belfast times showed only 7% wanted a referendum to even discuss the issue. A poll across all political and religious views conducted after the referendum.

The UDP are voted for by mainstream public who have zero interest in some of the more eccentric views. They have no relevance at all.

Even on the border only just over half wanted a referendum on it.

As I said you have no understanding of Ireland, zero comprehension of their viewpoints at all.

I am only talking about the border, not remain or leave. They voted remain in the referendum which entails staying in the Customs Union.

On the border, just over half means a majority. Ask any leaver on here.

The DUP are shoreing up the UK government which means they have a disproportionate relevance.

Read your own post if you want to talk about comprehension.

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Grendel said:
You are aware Sinn Fein has less than 30% in the Irish assembly and its catholic counterparts in the assembly are totally opposed to them?

Are you saying that the catholics want a hard border, or a border at all?

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
You tell me? You seem to be complaining that the EU won’t negotiate a soft border and the majority of brexit errs want a hard border. Damed if they do, damed if they don’t.

So you say that I don't want the EU to win on us leaving yet you can't come out with any way they can win.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
Juncket is not the whole EU. Cameron went over very halfheartedly. There are many people in the EU who want the same things as you do.

So why try and say that I am wrong all the time?

I want what is right for the people of the EU. Yes that does include us.

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
So you say that I don't want the EU to win on us leaving yet you can't come out with any way they can win.

Eh?

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
The EU already has a lot of Tariff free GSP scheme deals in place around the world. India being one of them. We now hear from India that relaxing control of the movement of people between India and the UK needs to be better than it currently is as an EU member state, because the EU has tight controls on this. So how are we going to get a better deal out of India than we currently have? We already have a free trade agreement with them as EU members and strict control of immigration again as an EU member state. I don’t doubt we’ll get a free trade agreement but at what cost? If India gets their way it seems to mean excepting higher immigration from India. Sort of defeats the point of brexit doesn’t it? You’re moaning about EU immigrants causing a housing shortage is that just going to change to Asian immigrants causing a housing shortage?

We have a control of non EU residents coming here. We have no control over EU residents coming here. But you don't understand the difference.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Eh?

Exactly.

You don't have a clue what is going on but make out you know everything.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
I am only talking about the border, not remain or leave. They voted remain in the referendum which entails staying in the Customs Union.

On the border, just over half means a majority. Ask any leaver on here.

The DUP are shoreing up the UK government which means they have a disproportionate relevance.

Read your own post if you want to talk about comprehension.

Oh yes. Shoring up a government. Nothing but problems in the UK but no problem in Germany.

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
Exactly.

You don't have a clue what is going on but make out you know everything.

I made the point that you think the EU should negotiate a soft border whereas the majority who voted out are expecting a hard border. If we end up with a hard border like the majority who voted out want you’re not happy and blaming the EU for it despite it being what the majority wanted. If we have a soft border the majority will be up in arms and no doubt blaming the EU but you’ll be happy. It isn’t complicated really. If you’re happy the majority won’t be, if the majority are happy you won’t be. Whatever happens the EU are liable for the blame apparently so you tell me how they can win. Or are you suggesting that the whole point of brexit is to make the EU into some sort of pantomime villain to point blame at for everything? Do we as a country take no responsibility for brexit and what that gives us?

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
So why try and say that I am wrong all the time?

I want what is right for the people of the EU. Yes that does include us.

I said I want things done as well. The salaries, pensions, number of jobs, people like Schultz and Farage getting mates well paid jobs at the drop of a hat. Generous tax free allowances for attendance that are claimed when people are not there. Then people abusing the benefits system etc.. With you all the way on these points. Never said otherwise. Even said that the Euro cannot work without some form of transfer system to aid poorer countries. I want money spent on infrastructure in the East. I want Europe to be a wealthy place, and unlike you, I don’t think saving on support for school exchanges is a priority.

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
We have a control of non EU residents coming here. We have no control over EU residents coming here. But you don't understand the difference.

The point is we are probably going to have to relax those controls over non EU residents so those numbers are likely to increase and replace maybe even pass the number of EU immigrants. Boris was the one scaremongering saying that a country that has no intention of joining the EU (ie Turkey) had 80 million people who would be looking to come to the UK when they join. The price of stopping something that was never going to happen seems to be make it easier for the people of a country that has a population of 1.32 billion to come here instead.

It’s also not true to say we have no control. Successive governments have made it easier for EU immigrants to come here than it is for them to go to other EU countries simply because they haven’t put systems in place that other EU countries have, sickboy can tell you all about that and what he has to do to be able to live in Italy. We also have a natural method. We currently have record high numbers of people in employment and record low numbers of unemployment. The whole reason why the vast vast majority of EU immigrants are coming here is because jobs provide the opportunity to do so, if the jobs weren’t available they wouldn’t be here in the numbers that they are.

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
We have a control of non EU residents coming here. We have no control over EU residents coming here. But you don't understand the difference.

There is no difference. They all take space whether they are controlled or not controlled. The numbers are very similar.

Kingokings204 · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
There is no difference. They all take space whether they are controlled or not controlled. The numbers are very similar.

Eh? Controlled or not controlled? Did you really say no difference?

We have no control over eu numbers and we do over rest of the world numbers. What's hard to understand about that?

Ashdown · Oct 12, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Eh? Controlled or not controlled? Did you really say no difference?

We have no control over eu numbers and we do over rest of the world numbers. What's hard to understand about that?

Except we don't actually impose any controls over any of it !

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
I made the point that you think the EU should negotiate a soft border whereas the majority who voted out are expecting a hard border. If we end up with a hard border like the majority who voted out want you’re not happy and blaming the EU for it despite it being what the majority wanted. If we have a soft border the majority will be up in arms and no doubt blaming the EU but you’ll be happy. It isn’t complicated really. If you’re happy the majority won’t be, if the majority are happy you won’t be. Whatever happens the EU are liable for the blame apparently so you tell me how they can win. Or are you suggesting that the whole point of brexit is to make the EU into some sort of pantomime villain to point blame at for everything? Do we as a country take no responsibility for brexit and what that gives us?

This proves that you don't have the ability to read and understand at the same time.

Once again I didn't vote leave.

The question was about a trade deal. Nothing to do with the way people voted. I stated what could and might happen. No uneducated guessing like from yourself.

But you are right on one thing for once. Millions of people will be unhappy whatever happens.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
I said I want things done as well. The salaries, pensions, number of jobs, people like Schultz and Farage getting mates well paid jobs at the drop of a hat. Generous tax free allowances for attendance that are claimed when people are not there. Then people abusing the benefits system etc.. With you all the way on these points. Never said otherwise. Even said that the Euro cannot work without some form of transfer system to aid poorer countries. I want money spent on infrastructure in the East. I want Europe to be a wealthy place, and unlike you, I don’t think saving on support for school exchanges is a priority.

At least you finally agree with lots of points I have previously made about where money is wasted instead of constantly trying to make excuses up for the EU.

Kingokings204 · Oct 12, 2017

Ashdown said:
Except we don't actually impose any controls over any of it !

Very true but net half a million a year is crazy and unsustainable.

Every other country (non EU) in the world has a controlled immigration system so why can't we?

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
The point is we are probably going to have to relax those controls over non EU residents so those numbers are likely to increase and replace maybe even pass the number of EU immigrants. Boris was the one scaremongering saying that a country that has no intention of joining the EU (ie Turkey) had 80 million people who would be looking to come to the UK when they join. The price of stopping something that was never going to happen seems to be make it easier for the people of a country that has a population of 1.32 billion to come here instead.

It’s also not true to say we have no control. Successive governments have made it easier for EU immigrants to come here than it is for them to go to other EU countries simply because they haven’t put systems in place that other EU countries have, sickboy can tell you all about that and what he has to do to be able to live in Italy. We also have a natural method. We currently have record high numbers of people in employment and record low numbers of unemployment. The whole reason why the vast vast majority of EU immigrants are coming here is because jobs provide the opportunity to do so, if the jobs weren’t available they wouldn’t be here in the numbers that they are.

Yet again you show yourself to not have a clue.

1, Why will we have to relax rules on non EU residents?

2, If we have made it easier than the EU wanted why did Juncker say no to Cameron who wanted to make it harder right before the vote? Instead of it being a vote winner for Cameron it most probably lost the vote for him.

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
This proves that you don't have the ability to read and understand at the same time.

Once again I didn't vote leave.

The question was about a trade deal. Nothing to do with the way people voted. I stated what could and might happen. No uneducated guessing like from yourself.

But you are right on one thing for once. Millions of people will be unhappy whatever happens.

I never said that you did vote leave. It was an observation made on what you’ve been saying about the EU not wanting to negotiate on a soft border between the UK and Ireland at the Northern Irish/Irish border. The majority of out voters don’t want any soft border full stop so the EU are doing what the people voted for but it’s still their (the EU’s) fault according to what you’ve been saying. The EU didn’t vote leave, the British public did. If we don’t have a soft border between the UK and Ireland you can only blame the party who voted for a hard border. Remember, they knew what they voted for and apparently it wasn’t a two tiered brexit where the UK with the exception of Northern Ireland has a hard border. Out means just that and the people who voted for it are going to have to take responsibility for it instead of blaming the the EU and remoaners.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

Ashdown said:
Except we don't actually impose any controls over any of it !

Don't we? Try telling that to those trying to get into the UK.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
I never said that you did vote leave. It was an observation made on what you’ve been saying about the EU not wanting to negotiate on a soft border between the UK and Ireland at the Northern Irish/Irish border. The majority of out voters don’t want any soft border full stop so the EU are doing what the people voted for but it’s still their (the EU’s) fault according to what you’ve been saying. The EU didn’t vote leave, the British public did. If we don’t have a soft border between the UK and Ireland you can only blame the party who voted for a hard border. Remember, they knew what they voted for and apparently it wasn’t a two tiered brexit where the UK with the exception of Northern Ireland has a hard border. Out means just that and the people who voted for it are going to have to take responsibility for it instead of blaming the the EU and remoaners.

I said they don't want to negotiate on any borders whatever the case is. They only want to talk about money. They won't even talk about people already a resident elsewhere to where they come from.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Very true but net half a million a year is crazy and unsustainable.

Every other country (non EU) in the world has a controlled immigration system so why can't we?

Some on here think we can build millions of houses, roads all over the place, lots more hospitals and much more.

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
Yet again you show yourself to not have a clue.

1, Why will we have to relax rules on non EU residents?

2, If we have made it easier than the EU wanted why did Juncker say no to Cameron who wanted to make it harder right before the vote? Instead of it being a vote winner for Cameron it most probably lost the vote for him.

1) India has stated very publicly that any trade deal with the UK post brexit will have to involve a renogatiation to ease the restraints currently imposed on India because we are a member of the EU with regards to movement of people between India and the UK. Agreeing that both parties will like a free trade agreement is the easy part, it’s the terms and conditions that are going to be difficult to agree and as I say India have already set their stall out on what those terms and conditions will revolve around. Movement of people. It’s actually very difficult for people to rock up in the EU (currently including us as well). If they’re coming to the EU as tourists they have to apply for a visa, if they’re coming to the EU for business they need a letter/letters of invitation from a company/companies in the EU to be able to travel here, if they come as students to the EU there’s a criteria to meet, if they’re looking to resettle in the EU there’s a criteria to meet. All of which India wants relaxing as part of any trade deal between the UK and India post brexit. Tell me do you think that a relaxing of restrictions is going to increase or decrease immigration to the UK from India? Do you think India will be a one off or is this setting a precedent that other international trading partners will want? How has this strengthened our hand in international trade if all we’re doing is relinquishing control of something to get a free trade agreement that we currently enjoy as part of the EU
but with less control on immigration?

2) Cameron and Junker were negotiating about movement of people around the EU. Cameron and Junker wasn’t negotiating anything to do with movement of people from outside the EU into the EU. I’m not sure what that has to do with an India/UK post brexit trade deal.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
1) India has stated very publicly that any trade deal with the UK post brexit will have to involve a renogatiation to ease the restraints currently imposed on India because we are a member of the EU with regards to movement of people between India and the UK. Agreeing that both parties will like a free trade agreement is the easy part, it’s the terms and conditions that are going to be difficult to agree and as I say India have already set their stall out on what those terms and conditions will revolve around. Movement of people. It’s actually very difficult for people to rock up in the EU (currently including us as well). If they’re coming to the EU as tourists they have to apply for a visa, if they’re coming to the EU for business they need a letter/letters of invitation from a company/companies in the EU to be able to travel here, if they come as students to the EU there’s a criteria to meet, if they’re looking to resettle in the EU there’s a criteria to meet. All of which India wants relaxing as part of any trade deal between the UK and India post brexit. Tell me do you think that a relaxing of restrictions is going to increase or decrease immigration to the UK from India? Do you think India will be a one off or is this setting a precedent that other international trading partners will want? How has this strengthened our hand in international trade if all we’re doing is relinquishing control of something to get a free trade agreement that we currently enjoy as part of the EU
but with less control on immigration?

2) Cameron and Junker were negotiating about movement of people around the EU. Cameron and Junker wasn’t negotiating anything to do with movement of people from outside the EU into the EU. I’m not sure what that has to do with an India/UK post brexit trade deal.

1, We don't have to make borders easier for anyone.

2, I never said from outside the EU. I said EU. And I said it most probably cost the vote for Cameron. He seems to agree

Subscribe to read

David Cameron bade an emotional farewell to the EU on Tuesday night, saying Britain would not “turn its back on Europe” but claiming he could have avoided Brexit had European leaders let him control migration.

Mr Cameron, attending his final Brussels summit, said he wanted Britain to have “the closest possible” relations with the EU in future, but that the immigration issue could bedevil talks on a trade deal.

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
At least you finally agree with lots of points I have previously made about where money is wasted instead of constantly trying to make excuses up for the EU.

I can see the bigger picture though and am not petty. The EU is more than just Juncker and gravytrainers like Farage.

Grendel · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
I am only talking about the border, not remain or leave. They voted remain in the referendum which entails staying in the Customs Union.

On the border, just over half means a majority. Ask any leaver on here.

The DUP are shoreing up the UK government which means they have a disproportionate relevance.

Read your own post if you want to talk about comprehension.

No mart they wanted s referendum on the issue only. Not a definite decision and it's lower on their priority then remaining in the union.

The last brown administration would have formed a union with the DUP if they could.

Throughout this thread you have suggested the decision to leave Europe could cause the break up of the Union.

Never in Ireland or wales and even Sturgeon will not mention it. Not happening now or ever.

Grendel · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
I can see the bigger picture though and am not petty. The EU is more than just Juncker and gravytrainers like Farage.

The only picture you can see if a view from Junkers backside.

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Eh? Controlled or not controlled? Did you really say no difference?

We have no control over eu numbers and we do over rest of the world numbers. What's hard to understand about that?

We let in nearly half the total from non eu last year. Do you see a difference between a house occupied by 4 Pakistanis as opposed to one occupied by 4 Poles? If we let in the same amount of EU and non EU, do you see a difference? Control apperently doesn't make a big difference to quantity. It could, but it doesn't.

Astute · Oct 12, 2017

martcov said:
I can see the bigger picture though and am not petty. The EU is more than just Juncker and gravytrainers like Farage.

You see the picture from Germany. We see the picture from the UK.

But fair play. You managed to mention Farage for no reason yet again.

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Grendel said:
The only picture you can see if a view from Junkers backside.

You can see why I mentioned that I am not petty.

skybluetony176 · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
1, We don't have to make borders easier for anyone.

2, I never said from outside the EU. I said EU. And I said it most probably cost the vote for Cameron. He seems to agree

Subscribe to read

David Cameron bade an emotional farewell to the EU on Tuesday night, saying Britain would not “turn its back on Europe” but claiming he could have avoided Brexit had European leaders let him control migration.

Mr Cameron, attending his final Brussels summit, said he wanted Britain to have “the closest possible” relations with the EU in future, but that the immigration issue could bedevil talks on a trade deal.

We don’t have to. Doesn’t mean we won’t as part of a free trade agreement. Will we be able to make a free trade agreement with India without relaxing control of our border with India beyond what it is currently as an EU member state? Who knows, negotiations haven’t taken place yet but that is certainly what India wants. What happens if India won’t budge on this and we have to revert back to WTO rules? The EU will be on stronger trading terms with India than the UK and that could seriously damage the export market making our goods more expensive in India than EU goods and also mean that duty will be paid on all goods coming from India increasing prices to business and the consumer. It won’t just be the EU either, they also have a GSP arrangement with the USA for instance, not sure if that’s free trade or heavily reduced duty but the points the same.

martcov · Oct 12, 2017

Astute said:
You see the picture from Germany. We see the picture from the UK.

But fair play. You managed to mention Farage for no reason yet again.

I try and even it out with the number of times Juncker is mentioned on here. And we were on about gravytrainers, so it does have revelance.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (35 Viewers)

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