The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (18 Viewers)

[martcov]

The EU wanting to create a border is the fault of the UK?

All the problems of the past were because of the British government. But not if there is a forced border of any kind this time that the EU brings in.

The EU doesn’t want a border. It wants NI to remain in the Customs Union. The UK is being bloody minded. Brexit caused the problem.

 

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[Sick Boy]

The EU wanting to create a border is the fault of the UK?

All the problems of the past were because of the British government. But not if there is a forced border of any kind this time that the EU brings in.

I thought you wanted to tighten up the borders? Now you are calling for an open border with the EU?

 

[martcov]

I come from Irish descendants. I know what has gone on over the years. It isn't me who needs a history lesson.

So if the EU brings in a border of any kind it is nothing to do with the EU?

The EU is not bringing in a border. We are by leaving the EU and thus creating a customs border.

 

[Astute]

Oh really...? I have said often enough that the EU needs reform and that I am pleased that people like Macron are putting ideas on the table. Even if I don’t agree with everything. A major reform is necessary and this made be the upside of Brexit that things start moving forward. I think Brexit was unnecessary and brought about by certain people appealing to the worst in some people, whilst building a united Europe after the war was appealing to the best in people. We have had no internal wars during the building of the EU. Long may that continue. Before you go on about NATO, NATO Expansion could be the most likely cause of a European conflict in the future. A European defence force which could take over protecting the EU may actually be a better long term solution to relations with Russia as opposed to a force dominated by an increasingly unreliable and warlike USA. It should at least be discussed.

All your own opinion.

Of course the EU needs reform. But what chance is there of it happening when everyone has to agree and the bloke at the top just wants it to expand.

Before I go on about NATO? I have never mentioned it.

 

[Astute]

The EU doesn’t want a border. It wants NI to remain in the Customs Union. The UK is being bloody minded. Brexit caused the problem.

The bloody mindedness is coming from the EU.

So what happens if the EU refuses us all any part of the customs union? Yes. You will just blame the UK.

 

[martcov]

All your own opinion.

Of course the EU needs reform. But what chance is there of it happening when everyone has to agree and the bloke at the top just wants it to expand.

Before I go on about NATO? I have never mentioned it.

No, but I was covering that eventuality as that is the usual leaver retort to the peace achieved by close cooperation after the war.

 

[Astute]

The EU is not bringing in a border. We are by leaving the EU and thus creating a customs border.

Only if the EU takes it that way.

 

[Astute]

No, but I was covering that eventuality as that is the usual leaver retort to the peace achieved by close cooperation after the war.

Why quote me as about to bring it up then?

I have said countless times that we don't know what will happen. I have said countless times that it would be better all round to have deals. It isn't me that is against deals being made. It isn't me going on about how bad IT WIIL BE.

 

[martcov]

The bloody mindedness is coming from the EU.

So what happens if the EU refuses us all any part of the customs union? Yes. You will just blame the UK.

They have offered that for NI and ROI is in favour of the proposal. I would take that seeing that ROI and EU agree, and then move on to the other 2 points. Problem it is the DUP - not Juncker - who would never agree and seeing as they have May by the „balls“, there will be a continuing problem.

 

[martcov]

Only if the EU takes it that way.

The EU is surrounded by the EU external border. They are not „taking it that way“. It is a known fact there is a border around the EU. The postal worker in Chatham should have thought about that in assessing his leave vote - as should have the other leavers, but I suspect that many believed the bullshit spewed by the leave campaign suggesting an easy „Brexit“.

 

[martcov]

Why quote me as about to bring it up then?

I have said countless times that we don't know what will happen. I have said countless times that it would be better all round to have deals. It isn't me that is against deals being made. It isn't me going on about how bad IT WIIL BE.

No, we don’t know how good or bad it will be, but what we do know is that it is very likely that it will be bad for both sides in the short term. The difference being, that I don’t think it is worth the risk to go through all this whilst not knowing that we will be better off in the end. Remain and reform would not be plain sailing, but the risks are not as great as leave and hope for the best.

 

[Astute]

They have offered that for NI and ROI is in favour of the proposal. I would take that seeing that ROI and EU agree, and then move on to the other 2 points. Problem it is the DUP - not Juncker - who would never agree and seeing as they have May by the „balls“, there will be a continuing problem.

We will see. I don't trust any of them.

 

[Astute]

The EU is surrounded by the EU external border. They are not „taking it that way“. It is a known fact there is a border around the EU. The postal worker in Chatham should have thought about that in assessing his leave vote - as should have the other leavers, but I suspect that many believed the bullshit spewed by the leave campaign suggesting an easy „Brexit“.

So the countries in Europe but not in the EU all have borders?

 

[skybluetony176]

The bloody mindedness is coming from the EU.

So what happens if the EU refuses us all any part of the customs union? Yes. You will just blame the UK.

Brexit was always likely to create a hard border. Why else do you think Northern Ireland voted remain? Many people who voted out are furious at the prospect of their being a soft border located in the UK. Out means out all that. It sounds like you’re saying that there isn’t a scenario where the EU can win here.

 

[martcov]

So the countries in Europe but not in the EU all have borders?

Yes. It is a normal thing to have a border. Some have hard borders others don’t. The difference being the history of Ireland. People are married and related to one another. They have a soft border now. There is also the GFA and the peace process. This is not like, says, Norway and the EU, or Switzerland, this is an island which the majority think should be one island. ROI wants to trade as now with the North. The border is difficult to patrol because of the number of rural lanes you would have to control. A deal whereby NI would remain in the customs union would solve the problem and benefit the whole of the island of Ireland including the majority of voters who voted remain in Northen Ireland. Apart from anything else, the British government doesn’t even have a mandate from the population to take Northern Ireland out of the Customs Union. They are using the mandate for the whole of the UK to override the majority of voters in Northern Ireland, those who will actually be effected.

The DUP will never agree though. This party have MPs who do not accept evolution, neither do they accept geological explanations for the evolution of our planet. They are young earthers and religious fanatics and are holding up our Government at this crucial time. But you blame the EU.

 

[Astute]

No, we don’t know how good or bad it will be, but what we do know is that it is very likely that it will be bad for both sides in the short term. The difference being, that I don’t think it is worth the risk to go through all this whilst not knowing that we will be better off in the end. Remain and reform would not be plain sailing, but the risks are not as great as leave and hope for the best.

Personally I think that it will not be a good or bad deal.

The EU will want to punish us for leaving. It is going to leave their finances in disarray. And they won't want other countries to see us do well after leaving.

But on the other hand millions of people throughout the EU depend on us. Bringing in hard borders will cause us harm. But also to their members. We buy much more from them than they buy from us.

It is about time the idiots stopped posturing and got on with it. The 'We want such amount' and 'We won't pay that' won't get us anywhere. Guarantee residency first. Not hard is it.

Trade deals? Who knows. A trade deal would be best all round. Juncker says no. So lets see who is in charge. It would be a benefit to the EU countries as well as us for there to be a deal.

 

[Astute]

Brexit was always likely to create a hard border. Why else do you think Northern Ireland voted remain? Many people who voted out are furious at the prospect of their being a soft border located in the UK. Out means out all that. It sounds like you’re saying that there isn’t a scenario where the EU can win here.

What would you count as a win for the EU?

 

[Astute]

Yes. It is a normal thing to have a border. Some have hard borders others don’t. The difference being the history of Ireland. People are married and related to one another. They have a soft border now. There is also the GFA and the peace process. This is not like, says, Norway and the EU, or Switzerland, this is an island which the majority think should be one island. ROI wants to trade as now with the North. The border is difficult to patrol because of the number of rural lanes you would have to control. A deal whereby NI would remain in the customs union would solve the problem and benefit the whole of the island of Ireland including the majority of voters who voted remain in Northen Ireland. Apart from anything else, the British government doesn’t even have a mandate from the population to take Northern Ireland out of the Customs Union. They are using the mandate for the whole of the UK to override the majority of voters in Northern Ireland, those who will actually be effected.

The DUP will never agree though. This party have MPs who do not accept evolution, neither do they accept geological explanations for the evolution of our planet. They are young earthers and religious fanatics and are holding up our Government at this crucial time. But you blame the EU.

Come on then. What have I blamed the EU for?

 

[martcov]

Brexit was always likely to create a hard border. Why else do you think Northern Ireland voted remain? Many people who voted out are furious at the prospect of their being a soft border located in the UK. Out means out all that. It sounds like you’re saying that there isn’t a scenario where the EU can win here.

This is and was the Irish Problem in mini form. Astute is British lives in Cumbria, doesn’t like the EU or Juncker. The ROI wants a sea border with Britain - the island of Ireland as one economic entity with both sides of the border in the Customs Union and a soft border separating the political entities. The EU has proposed that. The Northern Ireland population voted remain and therefore implied continued membership of the Customs Union.

It should be first point „done and dealt“. But, no. People like Astute and the quoted postal worker from Chatham don’t want that. They, through their government, together with religious wing nuts from the Protestant community won’t allow it. No wonder that there has been so much strife in Ireland.

I would be fuming if I were Irish or Northern Irish, and may even join a separatist party to break away from the UK if I were there. I see that as the only real solution to the Irish problem. What right has Astute to want to scupper a potential solution to the border problem? If he wants talks to progress, he should be for something which ROI, the majority of Northern Ireland through their remain vote, and the EU agree on. It has nothing to do with the rest of Britain in reality.

 

[martcov]

Come on then. What have I blamed the EU for?

Not time today.

 

[skybluetony176]

For it to be good these trade deals need to be better than the ones the EU already have in place otherwise it’s a complete waste of time. That seems unlikely to me. Other than cheaper citrus fruit coming into the UK and twice as many pigs ears going out I’m still waiting for someone to tell me the gain here.

Especially when the EU is already negotiating with China, Renegotiating with Japan and countries like India want movement of people between India and the UK to be easier. Doesn’t seem likely that we’re going to improve our trading position and where we can they’ll be other costs for it such as a rise in non EU immigration.

Sometimes it really is better the devil you know.

 

[Astute]

This is and was the Irish Problem in mini form. Astute is British lives in Cumbria, doesn’t like the EU or Juncker. The ROI wants a sea border with Britain - the island of Ireland as one economic entity with both sides of the border in the Customs Union and a soft border separating the political entities. The EU has proposed that. The Northern Ireland population voted remain and therefore implied continued membership of the Customs Union.

It should be first point „done and dealt“. But, no. People like Astute and the quoted postal worker from Chatham don’t want that. They, through their government, together with religious wing nuts from the Protestant community won’t allow it. No wonder that there has been so much strife in Ireland.

I would be fuming if I were Irish or Northern Irish, and may even join a separatist party to break away from the UK if I were there. I see that as the only real solution to the Irish problem. What right has Astute to want to scupper a potential solution to the border problem? If he wants talks to progress, he should be for something which ROI, the majority of Northern Ireland through their remain vote, and the EU agree on. It has nothing to do with the rest of Britain in reality.

You are funny.

You are right. I don't like Juncker. He is a twat. He has always been out for what is best for Luxembourg and himself. He doesn't care about the residents of the EU. Just his visions.

So what don't I like about the EU? Run properly it would be great. But it isn't. Too much bureaucracy. Too many unvoted for people just in it to make money. Astronomical pensions for all. Golden goodbyes for all. And it costs us billions a year to be a part of it.

Cameron wanted to see about changes. Juncker slapped him down. Publicly. Just days before the vote. Well done Juncker.

 

[Astute]

For it to be good these trade deals need to be better than the ones the EU already have in place otherwise it’s a complete waste of time. That seems unlikely to me. Other than cheaper citrus fruit coming into the UK and twice as many pigs ears going out I’m still waiting for someone to tell me the gain here.

Especially when the EU is already negotiating with China, Renegotiating with Japan and countries like India want movement of people between India and the UK to be easier. Doesn’t seem likely that we’re going to improve our trading position and where we can they’ll be other costs for it such as a rise in non EU immigration.

Sometimes it really is better the devil you know.

Trade deals are only a part of being in.....or out of the EU. Why do they need to be better? Better than zero tariffs? Easy transporting of goods?

Have you forgotten about the millions of homeless people that we have in the UK already? Staying in the EU with present rules would have made the problem continually worse. And Juncker publicly said that nothing would change.

You might be cosy in your own place. But how about for once thinking of the millions of people without a home. This includes both people that have come to live here as well as those born here.

 

[Grendel]

This is and was the Irish Problem in mini form. Astute is British lives in Cumbria, doesn’t like the EU or Juncker. The ROI wants a sea border with Britain - the island of Ireland as one economic entity with both sides of the border in the Customs Union and a soft border separating the political entities. The EU has proposed that. The Northern Ireland population voted remain and therefore implied continued membership of the Customs Union.

It should be first point „done and dealt“. But, no. People like Astute and the quoted postal worker from Chatham don’t want that. They, through their government, together with religious wing nuts from the Protestant community won’t allow it. No wonder that there has been so much strife in Ireland.

I would be fuming if I were Irish or Northern Irish, and may even join a separatist party to break away from the UK if I were there. I see that as the only real solution to the Irish problem. What right has Astute to want to scupper a potential solution to the border problem? If he wants talks to progress, he should be for something which ROI, the majority of Northern Ireland through their remain vote, and the EU agree on. It has nothing to do with the rest of Britain in reality.

You are utterly clueless about Ireland stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[Astute]

You are utterly clueless about Ireland stop embarrassing yourself.

Just let him continue. I like to get the version from someone who knows everything.

 

[Grendel]

Just let him continue. I like to get the version from someone who knows everything.

I've already had this "debate" with him. Less than one in ten even want a referendum in Northern Ireland to leave.

 

[Astute]

I've already had this "debate" with him. Less than one in ten even want a referendum in Northern Ireland to leave.

Same as any other debate when wrong.

My main point is for the homeless. Yet it gets forgotten for a few days usually then the onslaught against me starts again. Then I get told that there isn't millions of homeless. So I show the proof again.

It is like groundhog day.

 

[martcov]

You are utterly clueless about Ireland stop embarrassing yourself.

Really? Which way did the referendum go in Northern Ireland go? Why have 64% of the NI population now got ROI passports - more than Protestant community? Do the ROI want a soft border and NI in the Customs Union? Are the DUP MPs all sensible intelligent people who accept geological and evolutionary facts? Maybe you should take your own advice and stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[martcov]

You are funny.

You are right. I don't like Juncker. He is a twat. He has always been out for what is best for Luxembourg and himself. He doesn't care about the residents of the EU. Just his visions.

So what don't I like about the EU? Run properly it would be great. But it isn't. Too much bureaucracy. Too many unvoted for people just in it to make money. Astronomical pensions for all. Golden goodbyes for all. And it costs us billions a year to be a part of it.

Cameron wanted to see about changes. Juncker slapped him down. Publicly. Just days before the vote. Well done Juncker.

Juncket is not the whole EU. Cameron went over very halfheartedly. There are many people in the EU who want the same things as you do.

 

[martcov]

Same as any other debate when wrong.

My main point is for the homeless. Yet it gets forgotten for a few days usually then the onslaught against me starts again. Then I get told that there isn't millions of homeless. So I show the proof again.

It is like groundhog day.

I said, yes it’s bad. A large portion of migrants come from elsewhere. How come is it the EU half that cause the housing problem? It depends what you class as homeless. According to some classifications I was homeless for years. I didn’t even know it. I was young and was voluntarily homeless to an extent - if it was classified as such. There are many factors for the housing problem, including houses not being built, companies sitting on land as an investment, more single households, old people whose family has moved out living in larger homes etc etc. You come out several times a day and blame the EU.

 

[martcov]

I've already had this "debate" with him. Less than one in ten even want a referendum in Northern Ireland to leave.

More than half voted remain. No one has asked if they want a soft border through being in the Customs Union, but they did vote remain which implies that.

 

[martcov]

I've already had this "debate" with him. Less than one in ten even want a referendum in Northern Ireland to leave.

The Northern Ireland parliament is Split almost 50:50 between republicans and pro uk representatives. It is suspended at the moment, but it would be good to hear what they think via a debate.

We know what Sinn Fein‘s MEP thinks of a border- something to do with sticking it in a place where the sun doesn’t shine.

 

[Grendel]

Really? Which way did the referendum go in Northern Ireland go? Why have 64% of the NI population now got ROI passports - more than Protestant community? Do the ROI want a soft border and NI in the Customs Union? Are the DUP MPs all sensible intelligent people who accept geological and evolutionary facts? Maybe you should take your own advice and stop embarrassing yourself.

An extensive survey conducted by the Belfast times showed only 7% wanted a referendum to even discuss the issue. A poll across all political and religious views conducted after the referendum.

The UDP are voted for by mainstream public who have zero interest in some of the more eccentric views. They have no relevance at all.

Even on the border only just over half wanted a referendum on it.

As I said you have no understanding of Ireland, zero comprehension of their viewpoints at all.

 

[skybluetony176]

What would you count as a win for the EU?

You tell me? You seem to be complaining that the EU won’t negotiate a soft border and the majority of brexit errs want a hard border. Damed if they do, damed if they don’t.

 

[Grendel]

The Northern Ireland parliament is Split almost 50:50 between republicans and pro uk representatives. It is suspended at the moment, but it would be good to hear what they think via a debate.

We know what Sinn Fein‘s MEP thinks of a border- something to do with sticking it in a place where the sun doesn’t shine.

You are aware Sinn Fein has less than 30% in the Irish assembly and its catholic counterparts in the assembly are totally opposed to them?