The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (1 Viewer)

[Grendel]

Do you think NI will remain in the Customs Union?

No

 

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[Astute]

Fine by me. But some of the crap in the Mail well past right of centre.

No paper is perfect. Most are shite at times. That is the problem of freedom of speech. Idiots are allowed to have a say.

But I don't discount everything from every rag. I know what is right and wrong. I don't look for things that back me up. I don't read them to help me make my mind up. But it does help to see both sides.

 

[Grendel]

Out of interest perhaps Martcov would like to list some of the columnists in the Daily Mail and his views on them.

 

[Astute]

Like I said, nothing stopping people changing their mind in either direction. You keep telling us that you voted remain, nothing stopping you or anyone else who did voting leave should there be another referendum as a point of principle. Like I said could be a leave whitewash. Wouldn’t that be better than the narrow victory that’s raised more questions than answers that we have now? Wouldn’t a clear victory strengthen our negotiating place?

Would you be after another vote if nearly 2 million people more voted to remain than leave?

Neither would I. I would be on here trying to have a debate with those on here crying about staying in the EU when there was 'only nearly two million' people more wanting to stay than leave. Moaning about the remain lot lying. Looking for papers and people to blame.

I have accepted the result. And now I have seen the real EU.

 

[martcov]

There was a referendum on proportional representation - it was rejected.

We have a parliament act which renders the lords obsolete when we choose to. We can't ignore the slimy EU commission

The border poll was for a referendum - 46% don't even want it discussed - the same poll also said a hard border was preferable than not remaining in the uk post brexit.

So, you agree with me then? Brits rejected proportional representation because it too democratic, or judging by some posters on here, they don’t understand how it works.

They could make the Lords into an elected senate of nominated experienced/ well qualified people, but that would be too democratic. The public may vote for the wrong ones.

54% want a referendum for the border discussed, let‘s take the side of the 46%. A referendum on staying in Britain and the customs union wasn’t even polled as that is a suggestion from the EU. Far too democratic.

 

[martcov]

Out of interest perhaps Martcov would like to list some of the columnists in the Daily Mail and his views on them.

I think I have already explained that I usually only read the links to the Mail on here. Maybe it is a bulwark of reasoned arguments ( and I know they do have some decent reporting as well as what gets highlighted on here ), but reasoned articles don’t get linked on here, so no I won’t be naming the people who write the articles. The Guardian articles that I occasionally read do seem to be reasoned ( in general). There doesn’t seem to be the same degree of sensationalism in the Guardian. I prefer the Independent ( yes, I have noticed that it is biased and also uses clickbait sensational headlines ). I mix that with US and German sources to get a broader picture. I cannot read everything- and I admit that I miss some good talking points in the Mail, but the sensationalism and bias drives me away from it.

 

[martcov]

Would you be after another vote if nearly 2 million people more voted to remain than leave?

Neither would I. I would be on here trying to have a debate with those on here crying about staying in the EU when there was 'only nearly two million' people more wanting to stay than leave. Moaning about the remain lot lying. Looking for papers and people to blame.

I have accepted the result. And now I have seen the real EU.

I doubt that you have seen the real EU. I doubt that you have seen the infrastructure projects in the East and the aims for equality and cohesion. All you care about is exerts from Juncker‘s speeches ( missing out ‚I don’t hate Britain’ of course ) and the growth - or presumed growth - of right wing parties. I say presumed because they are one theme parties which could collapse just as easily as UKIP if problems ease. And of course the homeless.. and Greece

 

[Grendel]

So, you agree with me then? Brits rejected proportional representation because it too democratic, or judging by some posters on here, they don’t understand how it works.

They could make the Lords into an elected senate of nominated experienced/ well qualified people, but that would be too democratic. The public may vote for the wrong ones.

54% want a referendum for the border discussed, let‘s take the side of the 46%. A referendum on staying in Britain and the customs union wasn’t even polled as that is a suggestion from the EU. Far too democratic.

No they rejected it as they see what it creates - a mish mash of parties and a rise in the extremist vote. It was completely correct and supports a far better form of democracy which has served the country for centuries

We don't need an elected second house. It would be another layer of federalism. When you say vote for the "wrong ones" what does that even mean? That's democracy Euro style. I think you've been there too long old boy. You know, get the result wrong so have another go.

Unfortunately I'm now going to sue you as I'm in A and E having broken my ribs laughing at your third paragraph. The EU suggested a referendum for staying in Britain? That's odd for three reasons - firstly you keep telling us they don't interfere in domestic politics, two 93% in a recent poll said they'd hate the idea of a referendum and three the idea of N Ireland surviving as an independent country is utterly proposterous.

 

[skybluetony176]

Would you be after another vote if nearly 2 million people more voted to remain than leave?

Neither would I. I would be on here trying to have a debate with those on here crying about staying in the EU when there was 'only nearly two million' people more wanting to stay than leave. Moaning about the remain lot lying. Looking for papers and people to blame.

I have accepted the result. And now I have seen the real EU.

I don’t think that either of us are naive enough to believe that whatever the size of the victory for remain would have been either in the first referendum or a second should that happen that people like Ferage, Reece Mogg, Davis and all the other MP’s past and present or people with anti European views would all of a sudden go quite and disappear. There’s been MP’s, public figures, journalists, business leaders etc. who have wanted us to leave Europe almost as soon as we joined. Why would that have changed just because we voted remain whatever the percentage? It wouldn’t and neither should it. It’s their right and I wouldn’t deny them that. There would still be people pushing for another in out referendum, Scotland shows you that would almost certainly be the case. If the will was there after voting remain for another in/out referendum who would I be to deny that opportunity to people who wanted to leave? I take you back to the David Davis quotation again "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy." That works both ways. Or at least it should. My problem isn’t the result, my problem is what people based their decision making on when voting. We’re now thanks to two of what must have been the poorest, most ill informed campaigns in the country’s history (the last Tory election campaign aside) in a situation where it isn’t unreasonable to ask for a second referendum based on the truths of brexit that we’ve learned since the last referendum.

 

[martcov]

No they rejected it as they see what it creates - a mish mash of parties and a rise in the extremist vote. It was completely correct and supports a far better form of democracy which has served the country for centuries

We don't need an elected second house. It would be another layer of federalism. When you say vote for the "wrong ones" what does that even mean? That's democracy Euro style. I think you've been there too long old boy. You know, get the result wrong so have another go.

Unfortunately I'm now going to sue you as I'm in A and E having broken my ribs laughing at your third paragraph. The EU suggested a referendum for staying in Britain? That's odd for three reasons - firstly you keep telling us they don't interfere in domestic politics, two 93% in a recent poll said they'd hate the idea of a referendum and three the idea of N Ireland surviving as an independent country is utterly proposterous.

The far better form of democracy is a sovereign parliament which served us for centuries. As you say. But, why allow an advisory referendum to supercede it?

The ‚wrong ones‘ from the point of view of the virtual duopoly which rules the UK.

The EU suggested NI remains in the Customs Union and Britain to avoid a hard border. You made up the bit about the EU suggesting a referendum. You used the arguments against proportional representation, but you ignore similar arguments about referenda.

 

[Grendel]

The far better form of democracy is a sovereign parliament which served us for centuries. As you say. But, why allow an advisory referendum to supercede it?

The ‚wrong ones‘ from the point of view of the virtual duopoly which rules the UK.

The EU suggested NI remains in the Customs Union and Britain to avoid a hard border. You made up the bit about the EU suggesting a referendum. You used the arguments against proportional representation, but you ignore similar arguments about referenda.

You said and I quote "a referendum for staying in Britain wasn't even polled and that was a suggestion by the EU"

We don't need to stay in it to have a non hard border as long as your cronies in Brussels permit it.

 

[Sick Boy]

No

How is there not going to be a hard border then? Unless the UK retain EU standards of course and doesn't deregulate?

 

[Sick Boy]

Still waiting for you solution to this post-Brexit, BTW. I would like to see the mansions of the super rich foreign residents who don't even live there gifted to the homeless. I'm sure you can agree with that?

Strange that no plan is forthcoming.

 

[martcov]

You said and I quote "a referendum for staying in Britain wasn't even polled and that was a suggestion by the EU"

We don't need to stay in it to have a non hard border as long as your cronies in Brussels permit it.

The suggestion did come from the EU and your survey didn’t poll whether people would want a referendum on staying in Britain and in the customs union. Seeing as that is seen favorably by both the EU and the ROI there should be some sort of NI ROI debate/ consultation on this. Maybe this is in keeping with the spirit of the GFA.

 

[Grendel]

How is there not going to be a hard border then? Unless the UK retain EU standards of course and doesn't deregulate?

Switzerland does not have a hard border at all and it has free trade with the eu but is not in the customs union - and before you say otherwise I've been there and I've driven through many times with zero requirement to show any passport at all.

 

[martcov]

You said and I quote "a referendum for staying in Britain wasn't even polled and that was a suggestion by the EU"

We don't need to stay in it to have a non hard border as long as your cronies in Brussels permit it.

Why should they be dictated to by a country that is leaving, doesn’t know where it is heading to, has no unified stance on negotiations and has signed the GFA which expects a soft border, but will not accept a reasonable suggestion to solve the problem?

 

[martcov]

TripAdvisor:

Switzerland is a member of the Schengen Area (an area consisting of most countries on the European continent, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland. It does not include the UK or Ireland) and no passport checks are done on people crossing borders within the Schengen area. However, because Switzerland is not a member of the EU, it is not in a Customs Union with its neighbours and the Frontier Guards may ask if travellers have anything to declare. (They are more likely to do this to those driving privately owned Swiss-registered cars). In many cases there is no staff at the border. When there are staff, expect to be waved through in most cases, but if a traveller DOES have something to declare it is wise to do so. There are Customs Forms available, even if the post is not staffed, and a box to drop them in.

We are not in Schengen.

 

[Grendel]

Why should they be dictated to by a country that is leaving, doesn’t know where it is heading to, has no unified stance on negotiations and has signed the GFA which expects a soft border, but will not accept a reasonable suggestion to solve the problem?

Thanks you've finally shown your true colours and don't pretend you and your cronies would even care less about Ireland other than using it and it's citizens rights for your own grubby purposes. You'd love it if there was some violence and unrest.

Is there anything you wouldn't do for your Euro overlords?

 

[Grendel]

TripAdvisor:

Switzerland is a member of the Schengen Area (an area consisting of most countries on the European continent, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland. It does not include the UK or Ireland) and no passport checks are done on people crossing borders within the Schengen area. However, because Switzerland is not a member of the EU, it is not in a Customs Union with its neighbours and the Frontier Guards may ask if travellers have anything to declare. (They are more likely to do this to those driving privately owned Swiss-registered cars). In many cases there is no staff at the border. When there are staff, expect to be waved through in most cases, but if a traveller DOES have something to declare it is wise to do so. There are Customs Forms available, even if the post is not staffed, and a box to drop them in.

We are not in Schengen.

Hardly a hard border and never been stopped in my UK registered car.

 

[skybluetony176]

Switzerland does not have a hard border at all and it has free trade with the eu but is not in the customs union - and before you say otherwise I've been there and I've driven through many times with zero requirement to show any passport at all.

They are a member of EFTA though which means they have a coordinated trade policy with the EU. I.E we wouldn’t be as free to negotiate our own trade deals as brexit is supposed to be. At least not to the we know what we voted for crowd. Maybe out doesn’t mean out after all?

 

[Astute]

I doubt that you have seen the real EU. I doubt that you have seen the infrastructure projects in the East and the aims for equality and cohesion. All you care about is exerts from Juncker‘s speeches ( missing out ‚I don’t hate Britain’ of course ) and the growth - or presumed growth - of right wing parties. I say presumed because they are one theme parties which could collapse just as easily as UKIP if problems ease. And of course the homeless.. and Greece

I doubt you ever notice when I say something good on the side of the EU. I'm sure that you are only waiting for me to say something unkind about them.

Of course they do decent things. But there is one major problem. The Euro. Great for Germany and anyone doing well. Bad for anyone not doing well.

But you like to ignore the bad.

Presumed growth of right wing parties? You are deluded if you believe it is just presumed. It is growing in all the main countries in the EU. But you try to make out that it means nothing.

To me it is mainly as a protest vote. Most people don't vote as a protest though. So how bad is it really?

 

[Sick Boy]

Switzerland does not have a hard border at all and it has free trade with the eu but is not in the customs union - and before you say otherwise I've been there and I've driven through many times with zero requirement to show any passport at all.

Does Switzerland comply with EU standards as they are in the SM?

Presumably you are all for retaining EU standards and not lowering them while also retaining freedom of movement. Sounds good to me.

 

[martcov]

Thanks you've finally shown your true colours and don't pretend you and your cronies would even care less about Ireland other than using it and it's citizens rights for your own grubby purposes. You'd love it if there was some violence and unrest.

Is there anything you wouldn't do for your Euro overlords?

I would love it the island of Ireland was in the customs union and NI was still being administered by Britain under the terms of the GFA.

 

[martcov]

I doubt you ever notice when I say something good on the side of the EU. I'm sure that you are only waiting for me to say something unkind about them.

Of course they do decent things. But there is one major problem. The Euro. Great for Germany and anyone doing well. Bad for anyone not doing well.

But you like to ignore the bad.

Presumed growth of right wing parties? You are deluded if you believe it is just presumed. It is growing in all the main countries in the EU. But you try to make out that it means nothing.

To me it is mainly as a protest vote. Most people don't vote as a protest though. So how bad is it really?

I agree that it is a protest vote and that the governments have to recognize the causes of it and that they try and resolve the problems.

 

[Astute]

They are a member of EFTA though which means they have a coordinated trade policy with the EU. I.E we wouldn’t be as free to negotiate our own trade deals as brexit is supposed to be. At least not to the we know what we voted for crowd. Maybe out doesn’t mean out after all?

So you was part of the we didn't know what we were voting for then?

 

[Grendel]

Does Switzerland comply with EU standards as they are in the SM?

Again that's all part of negotiation isn't it and it's very easy for a solution to be reached unless the EU play hardball and use the Irish people as pawns in their game. Which I'm sure you'd be outraged about wouldn't you?

 

[Sick Boy]

Again that's all part of negotiation isn't it and it's very easy for a solution to be reached unless the EU play hardball and use the Irish people as pawns in their game. Which I'm sure you'd be outraged about wouldn't you?

It's a British created problem and the UK has admitted EU citizens are part of its negotiating hand. Stop deflecting the blame and expecting others to fix our mess.

 

[Astute]

I agree that it is a protest vote and that the governments have to recognize the causes of it and that they try and resolve the problems.

For a lot of people the problems are either the EU or something to do with their policies. Italy for instance is having the Euro.

 

[martcov]

Hardly a hard border and never been stopped in my UK registered car.

No, of course you won’t be stopped. You were controlled when you crossed the border of the Schengen area. That is why you could enjoy the freedom of not having to show your passport. Britain and Ireland are not in Schengen. The UK wants a harder border to control EU immigration. That is why many voted leave. It would be better to have a sea border and let NI stay in the customs union to achieve the control over EU citizens that the leavers want and save customs bureaucracy. The leavers want to reduce bureaucracy. I would have thought they would be in favour of a sea border.

 

[martcov]

For a lot of people the problems are either the EU or something to do with their policies. Italy for instance is having the Euro.

Yes and before that it was having to continually devalue the Lira. It is more than a currency problem.

 

[Sick Boy]

No, of course you won’t be stopped. You were controlled when you crossed the border of the Schengen area. That is why you could enjoy the freedom of not having to show your passport. Britain and Ireland are not in Schengen. The UK wants a harder border to control EU immigration. That is why many voted leave. It would be better to have a sea border and let NI stay in the customs union to achieve the control over EU citizens that the leavers want and save customs bureaucracy. The leavers want to reduce bureaucracy. I would have thought they would be in favour of a sea border.

Apparently now they want to retain open borders with the EU while being a 3rd country and expect the EU to deregulate to keep in line with the UK.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes and before that it was having to continually devalue the Lira. It is more than a currency problem.

Oh come on, it's all JUNKers fault.

 

[Astute]

It's a British created problem and the UK has admitted EU citizens are part of its negotiating hand. Stop deflecting the blame and expecting others to fix our mess.

Of course they are. Yet I get rubbished on here when I say so.

The EU needs us. The EU countries needs us. The residents of the EU need us. But as the EU can't keep us in their master state plans they could be willing to make it hard for all their members.

Juncker totally refused to have talks with Cameron. Yet you fully blame the UK.

 

[Grendel]

It's a British created problem and the UK has admitted EU citizens are part of its negotiating hand. Stop deflecting the blame and expecting others to fix our mess.

Hold on - do you even disagree with the ROI government who said this arrangement should be special case?

You and your mate really are beneath contempt aren't you?

 

[Sick Boy]

Of course they are. Yet I get rubbished on here when I say so.

The EU needs us. The EU countries needs us. The residents of the EU need us. But as the EU can't keep us in their master state plans they could be willing to make it hard for all their members.

Juncker totally refused to have talks with Cameron. Yet you fully blame the UK.

Hahahaha!! If you went round the EU with that I think it would seal the fate of no deal.