The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (14 Viewers)

[mrtrench]

They are after us committing to potential liabilities amongst other things. In cash they definitively want the membership up until leaving, but there are loads of other potential liabilities and assets. I doubt whether you know everything on the subject, but I suggested paying the cash liabilities that we agree on, and taking the rest to some form of commission to sort out because it will take a long time to see what we really have to pay. Otherwise we cannot move forwards.

That seems sensible. But we have to add in the EU assets of which we have a share. Same deal: subtract those the EU agrees and add the others into an independent review by a third party.

 

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[skybluetony176]

And as usual you only mention one side of the story.

Because of the EU we have to pay tax on the power we use. We have to pay tax on hot food. They set the minimum tax we pay on other items. But countries can decide a few items for lower tax.

But just before we voted to leave the EU were going on about making us pay more tax. They were on about stopping tax free on children's clothes, food and medicine IIRC.

If there is no trade deal then yes we will pay more tax. But only what we bring in from the EU. And components brought in from the EU only attracts a 2% levy. Things made in this country will have a tax advantage for us.

Energy is on a VAT rate of 5% which as you say is set by the EU. This is the minimum that you are allowed to charge on this and successive governments have set it at the minimum so fair play to them. What’s EU rules on VAT on goods and services? I’ll help you out, it’s 15%. So as you’re the one talking about both sides maybe you can explain why successive governments have charged us above the minimum for decades? Is it not true to say that they could offset 5% on energy anytime they wish to the man in the street by reducing VAT on goods and services? Should they wish.

 

[Astute]

Energy is on a VAT rate of 5% which as you say is set by the EU. This is the minimum that you are allowed to charge on this and successive governments have set it at the minimum so fair play to them. What’s EU rules on VAT on goods and services? I’ll help you out, it’s 15%. So as you’re the one talking about both sides maybe you can explain why successive governments have charged us above the minimum for decades? Is it not true to say that they could offset 5% on energy anytime they wish to the man in the street by reducing VAT on goods and services? Should they wish.

Energy is on a VAT rate of 5% which as you say is set by the EU. This is the minimum that you are allowed to charge on this and successive governments have set it at the minimum so fair play to them. What’s EU rules on VAT on goods and services? I’ll help you out, it’s 15%. So as you’re the one talking about both sides maybe you can explain why successive governments have charged us above the minimum for decades? Is it not true to say that they could offset 5% on energy anytime they wish to the man in the street by reducing VAT on goods and services? Should they wish.

What about the rest of what I said instead of putting something else in?

EU VAT review could end Britain's exemption on food, medicine and children's clothing

 

[mrtrench]

Energy is on a VAT rate of 5% which as you say is set by the EU. This is the minimum that you are allowed to charge on this and successive governments have set it at the minimum so fair play to them. What’s EU rules on VAT on goods and services? I’ll help you out, it’s 15%. So as you’re the one talking about both sides maybe you can explain why successive governments have charged us above the minimum for decades? Is it not true to say that they could offset 5% on energy anytime they wish to the man in the street by reducing VAT on goods and services? Should they wish.

Not true. VAT was raised from 15% to 17.5% in 2008 (not decades ago) after the crisis. It was then raised again to 20% in 2010 - for the same reasons.

 

[Sick Boy]

What about the rest of what I said instead of putting something else in?

EU VAT review could end Britain's exemption on food, medicine and children's clothing

It didn't happen though, did it? The article is nearly 2 years old.

 

[Sick Boy]

Not true. VAT was raised from 15% to 17.5% in 2008 (not decades ago) after the crisis. It was then raised again to 20% in 2010 - for the same reasons.

Wasn't it first reduced from 17.5% down to 15% and then straight up to 20%?

 

[Astute]

It didn't happen though, did it? The article is nearly 2 years old.

Because we voted to leave :smuggrin:

 

[skybluetony176]

What about the rest of what I said instead of putting something else in?

EU VAT review could end Britain's exemption on food, medicine and children's clothing

Sorry. I was just trying to give all sides of the story. The U.K. government doesn’t have to charge us VAT on goods and services at 20% and can balance our VAT payments across a range of goods if they want. Would they even have to reduce it to 15% to offset the 5% they currently receive on energy. Let’s not pretend that the governments hands are tied on the amount of VAT we have to pay across the board. In real terms they could reduce the amount of VAT we pay anytime they want. They clearly don’t want. I’m old enough to remember it being 15%, then 17.5%, then 20%, then 17.5% again when Gordon Brown was trying to buy, err, I meant win an election and then finally back to 20% again. This is another example of how the EU is a convenient scapegoat for Government decisions by highlighting one area of taxation while ignoring another. We could all pay less VAT tomorrow if the government wanted without breaking EU rules. If VAT was set at 5% and 20% you’d have a point, but it isn’t and hasn’t been for over 25 years now.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just been looking and can’t find any definitive figures but by going on various articles online from various news outlets VAT on energy equates to about 5% of all VAT collected. So the government has plenty of scope to reduce the standard VAT rate to offset the 5% on energy. Again should they wish. It seems to me that it’s disingenuous to suggest that the EU is to blame for us all paying too much VAT when the government can address that.

Interestingly VAT equates for about 20% of all tax collected in the UK. Very unfair on the lowest wage earners. No wonder that they pay a disproportionate amount of tax compared to their earnings.

 

[Grendel]

I'm somewhat confused about vat discussions - why is this relevant? We have one of the lowest rates in Europe.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm somewhat confused about vat discussions - why is this relevant? We have one of the lowest rates in Europe.

Because Gove insists that the only reason we pay so much VAT is the EU’s fault as they insist that we pay 5% on energy while ignoring that we pay 5% more on goods and services than the minimum we’re allowed to charge under EU rules.

 

[skybluetony176]

Not true. VAT was raised from 15% to 17.5% in 2008 (not decades ago) after the crisis. It was then raised again to 20% in 2010 - for the same reasons.

Got my figures slightly wrong in a later post but VAT originally originally changed from 15% to 17.5% in 1991. It went down for a year to 15% before being put up again to 17.5% in December 2009. As you say it then went up again to 20% a short while later where it’s been ever since.

 

[mrtrench]

Because Gove insists that the only reason we pay so much VAT is the EU’s fault as they insist that we pay 5% on energy while ignoring that we pay 5% more on goods and services than the minimum we’re allowed to charge under EU rules.

What on Earth has VAT on goods and services got to do with legislation over VAT on fuel?

 

[Astute]

Just been looking and can’t find any definitive figures but by going on various articles online from various news outlets VAT on energy equates to about 5% of all VAT collected. So the government has plenty of scope to reduce the standard VAT rate to offset the 5% on energy. Again should they wish. It seems to me that it’s disingenuous to suggest that the EU is to blame for us all paying too much VAT when the government can address that.

Interestingly VAT equates for about 20% of all tax collected in the UK. Very unfair on the lowest wage earners. No wonder that they pay a disproportionate amount of tax compared to their earnings.

And the low paid workers don't use power?

 

[Astute]

What on Earth has VAT on goods and services got to do with legislation over VAT on fuel?

We choose VAT over 15%. We have no choice on the tax on household fuel. That is chosen by the EU. So he is trying to make it sound better.

 

[Sick Boy]

We choose VAT over 15%. We have no choice on the tax on household fuel. That is chosen by the EU. So he is trying to make it sound better.

Other EU have some ridiculous rule. In Italy I had to pay €180 just to reopen the gas and electricity accounts in my name. Somehow I can't see all of these Tory promises about us paying less coming true.

 

[Grendel]

I wasn't actually aware under EU legislation the elected uk government would not be allowed to set VAT rates lower than 15%

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Somehow I can't see all of these Tory promises about us paying less coming true.

I say again, I';d vote for a Brexit that cut VAT, raised income tax...

Bet that's not what we all know we voted for, however.

 

[skybluetony176]

And the low paid workers don't use power?

That’s exactly what I said.

 

[skybluetony176]

We choose VAT over 15%. We have no choice on the tax on household fuel. That is chosen by the EU. So he is trying to make it sound better.

We could also choose to offset the VAT we can choose against the VAT we can’t choose. We (the government) choose not to. That’s down to the government.

 

[mrtrench]

We could also choose to offset the VAT we can choose against the VAT we can’t choose. We (the government) choose not to. That’s down to the government.

How much money do you think we spend on fuel versus all other goods and services Tony? Offsetting the VAT from fuel might mean a current VAT rate of 19.9965%, practical?

Further, that's not really the point is it? The UK, generally, tries to ensure that key essentials are not VATable. VAT is more for things that people don't have to buy but want to - within what is possible.

 

[skybluetony176]

What on Earth has VAT on goods and services got to do with legislation over VAT on fuel?

Because the government could choose to offset the VAT they collect on goods and services against the VAT they collect on fuel. They choose not to. They could drop VAT on goods and services to 15% tomorrow should they choose without falling foul of EU regulations to offset the 5% on fuel. Although in reality they wouldn’t have to drop it that much given VAT on fuel accounts for around 5% of all VAT revenue collected.

 

[mrtrench]

Because the government could choose to offset the VAT they collect on goods and services against the VAT they collect on fuel. They choose not to. They could drop VAT on goods and services to 15% tomorrow should they choose without falling foul of EU regulations to offset the 5% on fuel. Although in reality they wouldn’t have to drop it that much given VAT on fuel accounts for around 5% of all VAT revenue collected.

I don't have the figures to hand, however - let's use this as an approximation. Fuel spend per year = 100. At 5% that brings in 5 in VAT. All other goods and services = 1,000,000,000. At 20% that brings in 200,000,000. Offsetting the fuel VAT (which isn't really the point anyway - as heat is an essential that the UK government tries not to tax) would lead to a VAT rate of 19.99999%, not 15%.

(200,000,000 - 5) / (1,000,000,000) * 100

Tell you what, I'll buy your house at a discount of 5%. But to offset it, to make it fair, you can buy a second hand book from me at a discount of 5%. Deal?

 

[Astute]

Other EU have some ridiculous rule. In Italy I had to pay €180 just to reopen the gas and electricity accounts in my name. Somehow I can't see all of these Tory promises about us paying less coming true.

So now these rules that the EU force onto people somehow gets turned onto the Tories?

What is wrong with admitting that the EU make up tax rules that we have to pay?

 

[Astute]

I say again, I';d vote for a Brexit that cut VAT, raised income tax...

Bet that's not what we all know we voted for, however.

And it isn't something we should make excuses fir like what is happening.

 

[Astute]

Because the government could choose to offset the VAT they collect on goods and services against the VAT they collect on fuel. They choose not to. They could drop VAT on goods and services to 15% tomorrow should they choose without falling foul of EU regulations to offset the 5% on fuel. Although in reality they wouldn’t have to drop it that much given VAT on fuel accounts for around 5% of all VAT revenue collected.

Would that help pensioners who have to use power to keep warm?

 

[SIR ERNIE]

I said that the shortfall is not the problem. Which is not saying there are no problems. I also don’t think the EU wants a bad deal or no deal. They want the three most important things out of the way first. Understandably. The no deal side is the British side who are trying to dodge thinks like the border problem and who are bogged down on divorce bill. Basically the U.K. are saying let’s put these things off and talkabout the future, but there is the GFA and citizens‘s rights that mean a lot to a lot of people - like me. I agree with EU on 2 out of the three. The divorce bill is really complicated and will take years, an initial payment should be agreed - on what we definitely know has been committed to - and then some sort of joint commission should be set up to go through all the points one by one. That will take years.

Once again you've just swallowed the EU positioning as gospel. Of course they want to discuss the divorce bill before anything else. But why does it have to be that way? Who agreed that they set the agenda?

It's clear that Barnier's role is simply to extract as much money from the UK as possible. That's his sole function. He's not there to conduct any negotiations. He's incapable of that in any case. Stonewall everything else no matter how long it takes, then dress it up to make it look like the UK are at fault and people like you who love to criticise the UK will lap it up.

The real negotiators will be Germany and German Industry. It was always going to be that way and they are now starting to emerge from the background. In coming months they will begin to move to centre stage regardless of any UK commitment to pay fantasy billions. The divorce bill will become irrelevant, Juncker and Barnier's comic posturing will be history.

That's why there can never be 'no deal'. That's why the UK can be confident to walk away any time soon. Germany will come running after us.

 

[Sick Boy]

Once again you've just swallowed the EU positioning as gospel. Of course they want to discuss the divorce bill before anything else. But why does it have to be that way? Who agreed that they set the agenda?

It's clear that Barnier's role is simply to extract as much money from the UK as possible. That's his sole function. He's not there to conduct any negotiations. He's incapable of that in any case. Stonewall everything else no matter how long it takes, then dress it up to make it look like the UK are at fault and people like you who love to criticise the UK will lap it up.

The real negotiators will be Germany and German Industry. It was always going to be that way and they are now starting to emerge from the background. In coming months they will begin to move to centre stage regardless of any UK commitment to pay fantasy billions. The divorce bill will become irrelevant, Juncker and Barnier's comic posturing will be history.

That's why there can never be 'no deal'. That's why the UK can be confident to walk away any time soon. Germany will come running after us.

The EU has set the agenda as it is now in a much stronger position that the UK. Suck it up.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

The EU has set the agenda as it is now in a much stronger position that the UK. Suck it up.

The EU is in deep shit. You suck that up.

 

[skybluetony176]

Would that help pensioners who have to use power to keep warm?

Of course it would. Unless you’re suggesting that the only thing pensioners pay VAT on is heating and everything else is VAT exempt to pensioners why wouldn’t it?

 

[Astute]

The EU has set the agenda as it is now in a much stronger position that the UK. Suck it up.

In what way?

Take out Germany and it is in trouble. You and a few others shout from the rooftops everything that can go wrong for the UK. But what can go wrong for the EU is quietly ignored.

Germany does well oit of being in the Euro and EU. If they were not in the Euro their currency would be much stronger.

So name the other EU countries that are doing as well as us. Then see how much of a low base they are starting at. Then look at the effect on them if there is no deal.

Those who are involved in German manufacturing say they need a deal. Several other countries have said the same. Italy is one step away from the banks going tits up. Several EU countries need money to keep going. And nobody knows how much of this money will ever be paid back. That is why Barnier wants us to pay our share even after a leave date.

But lets keep it to negativity on the UK only.

 

[Astute]

Of course it would. Unless you’re suggesting that the only thing pensioners pay VAT on is heating and everything else is VAT exempt to pensioners why wouldn’t it?

So what tax hits pensioners on a limited income the most? They are not massive consumers. But they need to power their homes. But that doesn't fit in with the enforced tax.

 

[martcov]

In what way?

Take out Germany and it is in trouble. You and a few others shout from the rooftops everything that can go wrong for the UK. But what can go wrong for the EU is quietly ignored.

Germany does well oit of being in the Euro and EU. If they were not in the Euro their currency would be much stronger.

So name the other EU countries that are doing as well as us. Then see how much of a low base they are starting at. Then look at the effect on them if there is no deal.

Those who are involved in German manufacturing say they need a deal. Several other countries have said the same. Italy is one step away from the banks going tits up. Several EU countries need money to keep going. And nobody knows how much of this money will ever be paid back. That is why Barnier wants us to pay our share even after a leave date.

But lets keep it to negativity on the UK only.

The negativity is to do with Brexit. We still have different views on what it is and the government is under pressure- particularly from some of it’s own members who wish for no deal.

We are supposedly sailing into the sunset. You would think that at least we would know in which direction.

 

[mrtrench]

Of course it would. Unless you’re suggesting that the only thing pensioners pay VAT on is heating and everything else is VAT exempt to pensioners why wouldn’t it?

The point is Tone, that more or less, essential are VAT exempt. It's only items that we don't need to buy that attract VAT.

 

[Kingokings204]

The EU has set the agenda as it is now in a much stronger position that the UK. Suck it up.

It has set the agenda and only because we have a remain and split party ruling us. We have already gave away many concessions by all accounts.

I really don't see how hey are in a stronger position than us. They need us more than we need them but ideally need eachother. I don't see how a 70b trade deficit doesn't put us in a much stronger position? I don't see taking away our 10b a year contributions puts them in a stronger position, I don't see how us withdrawing from the open borders future budgets and future bailouts helps the EU either?

As Sir Ernie says there can't be no deal in truth as the 27 countries simply won't allow it. They sell us too much not to piss them off majorly quite noticeably the Dutch who have piped up loudly. They sell us the most out of every EU country apparently and their PM is adamant it has to be a free trade deal frictionless as possible for Netherlands to an already eurosceptic country.