The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (7 Viewers)

martcov · Apr 20, 2018

Grendel said:
Yes I know exactly what I’m talking about about.

The EU benefits germany above all else. The Eu has all but destroyed Greece, it’s people and it’s economy and the Eurocrats sit back and do nothing - it’s a scandal

You didn’t vote for political union because the YES vote at the time stressed that people like Tony Benn who said powers would be reduced and sovereignty lost were scaremongering. They pointed to a veto and said we would have power to vote against anything that did not benefit the uk. This power doesn’t now exist. Also they pointed to the fact we had nearly 20% of the voting powers in the council - we now have less than half.

It’s shown that papers and minutes revealing the true extent of political union from Brussels was suppressed and not revealed to the public.

This isn’t about the good of the 28 - it’s the good of the greedy facist few at the expense of everyone else.

You and your brother are two peas in a pod it seems.

Greece had a great run on credit. Greece had a tradition of creating government jobs after every election for the friends and families of the new government. Greeks retired early. The top military had special privileges regarding tax, as did shipping. Yes, they should never have been allowed in the Euro and should never have had so much credit, but that’s it.

I voted knowing Tony Benn‘s record. A total failure. I certainly wasn’t listening to him.

Of course we have less say as a percentage of 28. if we didn’t that would be undemocratic.

My brother and you would get on great. If you lived in Rugby you could vote for him. He shares your views to a tee. Enjoy.

Grendel · Apr 20, 2018

martcov said:
Greece had a great run on credit. Greece had a tradition of creating government jobs after every election for the friends and families of the new government. Greeks retired early. The top military had special privileges regarding tax, as did shipping. Yes, they should never have been allowed in the Euro and should never have had so much credit, but that’s it.

I voted knowing Tony Benn‘s record. A total failure. I certainly wasn’t listening to him.

Of course we have less say as a percentage of 28. if we didn’t that would be undemocratic.

My brother and you would get on great. If you lived in Rugby you could vote for him. He shares your views to a tee. Enjoy.

So you predicted the fall of the iron curtain, currency union, removal of a full veto and halving of influence? Honestly?

martcov · Apr 20, 2018

Grendel said:
So you predicted the fall of the iron curtain, currency union, removal of a full veto and halving of influence? Honestly?

Fall of the iron curtain. Yes.

Currency union. Plausible.

Halving of influence. No, but logical.

Grendel · Apr 20, 2018

martcov said:
Fall of the iron curtain. Yes.

Currency union. Plausible.

Halving of influence. No, but logical.

Bollocks oh and Mart - there’s a game on

martcov · Apr 20, 2018

Grendel said:
Bollocks oh and Mart - there’s a game on

Yes, I know, but I am stuck here... I will be back for Cheltenham, but have no ticket....:-( working on it..

Astute · Apr 21, 2018

Did 1975 EU predictions come true?

The vote to join Europe in 1975 was based on a lie ... but at last we’re getting our sovereignty back - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Astute said:
Did 1975 EU predictions come true?

The vote to join Europe in 1975 was based on a lie ... but at last we’re getting our sovereignty back - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Voters weren’t conned in 1975 referendum

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Astute said:
Did 1975 EU predictions come true?

The vote to join Europe in 1975 was based on a lie ... but at last we’re getting our sovereignty back - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Does the author belong to a party that rejected the a GFA and does he have an agenda which is why he is telling porkies or „alternative facts“?

Sick Boy · Apr 21, 2018

Astute said:
Did 1975 EU predictions come true?

The vote to join Europe in 1975 was based on a lie ... but at last we’re getting our sovereignty back - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

I presume you were aware that was written by a DUP politician? Are you going to starting using some of their other 'opinions' as facts soon as well?

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I presume you were aware that was written by a DUP politician? Are you going to starting using some of their other 'opinions' as facts soon as well?

I’ve already pointed to the facts in the original referendum campaign of 75 and the fact that minutes of cabinet meetings were hidden from the public as a fear existed if they new about political union then the vote would be lost. Powell, Foot and Benn were all called liars for proclaiming this outcome. Powell of course was ultimately sacked when he told Tory voters to switch to labour.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
the fact that minutes of cabinet meetings were hidden from the public as a fear existed if they new about political union then the vote would be lost.

With the caveat I'm not saying you're wrong, just interested...

Those records ought to be released nbow and available at the National Archives. Don't suppose you can point me towards them, save me the trouble?

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

Deleted member 5849 said:
With the caveat I'm not saying you're wrong, just interested...

Those records ought to be released nbow and available at the National Archives. Don't suppose you can point me towards them, save me the trouble?

Occurred twice - in 1961 McMillan advised his cabinet that it must be hidden from public view and that the intentions of politicising must not be made public and again in 71 under heath.

Astute · Apr 21, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I presume you were aware that was written by a DUP politician? Are you going to starting using some of their other 'opinions' as facts soon as well?

How about the BBC? They are pro EU although they are supposed to be impartial.

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Astute said:
How about the BBC? They are pro EU although they are supposed to be impartial.

What? BBC thinks the earth is 6000 years old and gays are sinners? The BBC is nothing like the crazies you quoted. They don’t want a United Ireland or a sea border or customs union. They use the word sovereignty to imply that Northern Iteland has sovereignty through Westminster. Plenty would say they, NI, lost their sovereignty long ago and that their vote to remain has been ignored by Westminster. As usual the word is bounded around for the purposes of whatever point leavers are trying to make, and continues to mean different things to different people. Republicans would claim that Britain deciding if we leave or remain is a denial of sovereignty for the majority in NI who voted remain.

Astute · Apr 21, 2018

How about Corbyn. He is supposed to be normally right

Labour's Corbyn, who voted 'No' in 1975, raises Brexit fears

SIR ERNIE · Apr 21, 2018

martcov said:
Yes. Interesting that we were already in and knew the conditions ( we were told by Heath that there would be a closer union ), as opposed to being in and voting out into the unknown. Voting for a leap in the dark is not sovereignty. It is reckless and the people who voted will carry the can of it goes wrong instead of the people charged with running the country, who could at least be held to account and voted out. The country is split whatever happens. That will not be repaired for a long while.

Hilarious to see you're still whining and whingeing about the vote.
Suggest that you direct it to your grubby mates Tusk and Juncker, whose arrogant indifference to Cameron's request for a small gesture of flexibility convinced millions to vote to leave the cesspit.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

martcov said:
What? BBC thinks the earth is 6000 years old and gays are sinners? The BBC is nothing like the crazies you quoted. They don’t want a United Ireland or a sea border or customs union. They use the word sovereignty to imply that Northern Iteland has sovereignty through Westminster. Plenty would say they, NI, lost their sovereignty long ago and that their vote to remain has been ignored by Westminster. As usual the word is bounded around for the purposes of whatever point leavers are trying to make, and continues to mean different things to different people. Republicans would claim that Britain deciding if we leave or remain is a denial of sovereignty for the majority in NI who voted remain.

How is NI sovereignty anything to do with leaving the EU?

This is why most pro remain voters on here ignore you now and the rest of us laugh at you

It’s an utterly clueless and stupid comment

Sick Boy · Apr 21, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
Hilarious to see you're still whining and whingeing about the vote.
Suggest that you direct it to your grubby mates Tusk and Juncker, whose arrogant indifference to Cameron's request for a small gesture of flexibility convinced millions to vote to leave the cesspit.

Haha it's always someone else's fault, isn't it? Even if in 20 years it turns out to be a disaster, there will still be those pointing the finger before looking closer to home and actually taking some responsibility.

chiefdave · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
in 1961

By the next time I check this thread I hope you've all got as far as arguing about what happened in the 1800s.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

chiefdave said:
By the next time I check this thread I hope you've all got as far as arguing about what happened in the 1800s.

It’s in the context of madmarts claims the uk knew when voting in 1975 that political union was the ultimate intention. It’s a clear lie as usual. He also claims he knew that the iron curtain would disappear which no historian ever forecasted. Another lie.

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
It’s in the context of madmarts claims the uk knew when voting in 1975 that political union was the ultimate intention. It’s a clear lie as usual. He also claims he knew that the iron curtain would disappear which no historian ever forecasted. Another lie.

I knew the common market meant moving closer together and wasn’t just a trade deal.

I knew that communism wasn’t working. The wall in Germany was a clue. Successful countries, states, trade blocs have to build walls to keep people out.

Don’t judge other people’s intelligence by your own low level of comprehension.

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
How is NI sovereignty anything to do with leaving the EU?

This is why most pro remain voters on here ignore you now and the rest of us laugh at you

It’s an utterly clueless and stupid comment

Exactly what is sovereignty? Is it a part of a country being overruled by another country in the eyes of around 50% of the NI people?

Anyway, I wasn’t the one talking crap about sovereignty and missing the point that the majority in NI voted remain. Seems democratic votes and sovereignty only count for leavers.

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
Hilarious to see you're still whining and whingeing about the vote.
Suggest that you direct it to your grubby mates Tusk and Juncker, whose arrogant indifference to Cameron's request for a small gesture of flexibility convinced millions to vote to leave the cesspit.

It wasn’t me that was pushing the argument that we were conned into joining the common market.

I was just answering other people.

I wasn’t conned and have seen things evolve over 40 years. I don’t buy the „we didn’t know“ bullshit.

Our elected governments knew what they were signing up to. They got opt outs for the things they least liked.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

martcov said:
Exactly what is sovereignty? Is it a part of a country being overruled by another country in the eyes of around 50% of the NI people?

Anyway, I wasn’t the one talking crap about sovereignty and missing the point that the majority in NI voted remain. Seems democratic votes and sovereignty only count for leavers.

Sovereignty is the antithesis of federalism - the fact you think you can link it to a federal machine shows the extremism of your viewpoint. It’s actually insane.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

martcov said:
It wasn’t me that was pushing the argument that we were conned into joining the common market.

I was just answering other people.

I wasn’t conned and have seen things evolve over 40 years. I don’t buy the „we didn’t know“ bullshit.

Our elected governments knew what they were signing up to. They got opt outs for the things they least liked.

You were conned and to deny the right to reconsider again exposes your extremist views.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

martcov said:
I knew that communism wasn’t working. The wall in Germany was a clue.

Fucking hell

skybluetony176 · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
You were conned and to deny the right to reconsider again exposes your extremist views.

You would support a second referendum then? Given that we now know the reality of brexit and no one would be conned into voting one way or the other.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
You would support a second referendum then? Given that we now know the reality of brexit and no one would be conned into voting one way or the other.

No Tony this was a referendum to leave or remain in the European Union which was a very different place to where we were in the 1970’s.

We have seen 5 treaties at political union, our influence in voting terms halved, our veto conditions watered down and a net contribution on a scale never imagined.

It was right and proper we were allowed to say if we wanted to remain in this totally different model to when we joined.

There is no “reality of Brexit” but it’s worth noting the lies as to the doomsday that would take place the minute we voted to leave have been exposed.

Astute · Apr 21, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
You would support a second referendum then? Given that we now know the reality of brexit and no one would be conned into voting one way or the other.

This was the second referendum. The first was in 1975 when we didn't have a clue what would happen in the future.

skybluetony176 · Apr 21, 2018

Astute said:
This was the second referendum. The first was in 1975 when we didn't have a clue what would happen in the future.

Much like the last one then. Surely you would welcome an informed decision for a change.

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
Sovereignty is the antithesis of federalism - the fact you think you can link it to a federal machine shows the extremism of your viewpoint. It’s actually insane.

How do you think Americans view make America great again? It is a federation as is Switzerland. In fact it seems we are the ones who have a problem with the word „federal“. I don’t, I already live in a federation. You seem to think not living in a federation is some sort of paradise. The EU isn’t a federation anyway. You can speculate that it may one day be, but 27 countries have to agree to it first. Could take some time... I won’t be here if it actually happens in the distant future..

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Much like the last one then. Surely you would welcome an informed decision for a change.

Tony supports democracy Nazi style. Madmart likes his post big suprise.

Grendel · Apr 21, 2018

martcov said:
How do you think Americans view make America great again? It is a federation as is Switzerland. In fact it seems we are the ones who have a problem with the word „federal“. I don’t, I already live in a federation. You seem to think not living in a federation is some sort of paradise. The EU isn’t a federation anyway. You can speculate that it may one day be, but 27 countries have to agree to it first. Could take some time... I won’t be here if it actually happens in the distant future..

You are insane - I do admire your ability to type with a straight jacket on though.

martcov · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
Fucking hell!

Did you think communism was Honky Dory then? A war or collapse was always going to happen. Same as with North Korea. China became a contradiction and Russia a cleptocracy.

Russia will also fail.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 21, 2018

Grendel said:
Occurred twice - in 1961 McMillan advised his cabinet that it must be hidden from public view and that the intentions of politicising must not be made public and again in 71 under heath.

Got a link to the records? Genuinely interested

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