From your upside down perspective, maybe you would think that, but seeing as you class Merkel as a Nazi I wouldn’t take too much notice of your opinions.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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From your upside down perspective, maybe you would think that, but seeing as you class Merkel as a Nazi I wouldn’t take too much notice of your opinions.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The dictat is a similar concept but rather than dominate by brutality it’s now domination through economics.
Would you like to vote again, this time based on an informed opinion and not as an advisory referendum? Or would you prefer no debate, no fact based vote and just rely on your Nazi based form of democracy?
Link?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
As have all the leave lies.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that the only one scared of democracy is you. Do you think that the Germans would have allowed the Nazis to take power with even a little hindsight of what Nazism really meant. I doubt many got what they were initially expecting when the Nazis took power.
Actually, Adolf Hitler saw the problem of competing nation states. He said that there would always be wars because of this. ( Source Mein Kampf ). His solution was to aim for military domination and therefore enforce German ineterests through military threat. The same as Trump is doing e.g. North Korea and Syria.
The EU is the opposite. The countries of Europe working together through the European Council and the European Parliament. All having voting rights.
You are an advocate of competing sovereign nation states, a failed system, and accuse Tony of supporting „Nazi style“ votes and Merkel of being a Nazi.
You are leaning more towards Hitler than people proposing votes on known facts.
Your views are more aligned with Bannon, Trump, Farage and the usual lying Brexit toads.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I see that that this question has been completely dodged, as usual!
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Genuinely not saying he's making it up. I didn't notice it whenever documents were released however, and I'd like to see it. There'd be a cracking story there, and it's all available at TNA. Could look myself but... easier if someone else points me towards it
Astute
Well-Known Member
Like open borders within the EU?
Astute
Well-Known Member
There was no informed change in 1975. There was no informed the last time either. But many only want to concentrate on what they wanted and not the truth.
I have no problem with FOM and we are not in Schengen. The open borders are in the Schengen area. We have border controls. I am in favour of strengthening the external borders of the EU.
Many cannot articulate what they exactly wanted and spew clichés.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I agree Mart. But you still have your say.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
This is hardly a great secret - it’s referenced here
Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were right on Europe - it was a great deception
You can though look at the original transcript (took me half hour to find it) and then the subsequent delivery.
Also no one seems to have mentioned the other elements of deception. That in 75 the yes campaign assured voters that we had full power of veto (we hadn’t it was removed) there was no political merging in the future (5 treaties later well...) great emphasis was placed on the fact we had a very strong voting influence in the European council (it’s been more than halved) and that it would not cost anything (right) - so it turned out to be a pack of lies.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Yet you seem quite comfortable with claims that the UK would spend £350m a week on the NHS and Turkey is on the verge of joining the EU.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The UK doesn't have open borders within the EU, considering the UK as been under the dictatorship of the EU, I'm shocked it was able to opt out.
The EU is not our empire.
As the population increases through other countries joining, our „weighting“ as a percentage falls. I have no problem with that and would not expect to have an unfair advantage.
Because of the increased number of countries, getting unanimous decisions becomes more difficult and therefore the veto rights are restricted to the most important things. I have no problem with that.
If you don’t understand democracy and evolving political systems maybe you should carry on with your Nazi style arguments.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Democracy is parliamentary sovereignty Mart - which the odious Ted Heath assured people was not being threatened - the ability for the uk to elect a party of their choice to make all decisions and if don’t deliver we can remove them.
Kruschev would have described the iron curtain as an evolving political system. Mugawbwe declared himself a democrat.
The people have spoken Mart - respect the majority and stop sinking to anti democratic fascist bile
Apropos anti democratic bile... what happened to the ability to say „we’ve changed our mind“?
If Brexit is not what people thought it was, then they should have at least a vote on any deal. We got into this by an advisory referendum and we should have the chance to reassess it based on what we now know.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Yeah same as those other countries were given a second choice, then a third, then a fourth till they got the right answer?
I do agree that in 40 years or so the country should reconsider if given the opportunity as only after another generation can we actually know if it’s delivered or it hasn’t.
I suspect we shall find out whether it has delivered sooner rather than later....
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I expect it to happen within 25 years at the very most. If there is a clear desire to attempt to rejoin then I'm sure that you'd want democracy and the will of the people to be honoured.
Astute
Well-Known Member
You have said several times that we voted to remain in the EU in1975. Correct?
For starters it was the common market. But we will forget about that fact for now.
You mention about the lies that we were told by some on the leave side. And you give that as a reason why we shouldn't leave. But you ignore the lies that the remain side told us. But we will forget about that fact for now.
I am not old enough to remember the 1975 vote. And I wasn't fully aware of what was said. So 10 times the money minimum was spent on the remain side than leave side. You didn't like the fact that slightly more was spent on the leave side this time. The public were told massive lies. And a lot of the truth was also hidden from them. Yet you seem to be very happy with this.
So how is it OK for remain to lie to us but not leave?
Astute
Well-Known Member
I would. Just like I now have the desire for democracy and the will of the people to take place even though I don't think it is best for me.
So if you are so keen for the desire for democracy and the will of the people to take place why are you so much against it now?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I genuinely believe it is going to be cause long-term damage to the country, when it happens I also think that resentment is going to get stronger and stronger but at least we will know who to hold to account for it.
It doesn't affect me as much as others as I had an Irish passport before my parents got me a UK one. However, I do believe that MPs should not be allowed to reverse the decision and I do believe there would be a lot of very disillusioned people if it did happen. If there is a clear desire to reverse it as exit day looms then I do think it should go to another vote, if the desire is there.
Good morning.
I have said we voted 2:1 in 1975 to stay in the then common market.
I voted knowing we were going to move closer. I knew we weren’t voting solely for a trade deal.
The lies told by leave are common knowledge and some of the worst predictions of remain have yet to happen or may never happen.
The progression of the EU is well documented and the way the EU is constituted and how it works are available on line. Most people never looked at that before these discussions after the Brexit vote happened started off. Now we are told we were lied to and everything is/ was a great secret.
Since the advent of the internet it has been much easier to read up on it. But, millions take their information from the right wing papers and politicians. It is easier to let them sum it up rather than look yourself. The propagandists make it even simpler by using terms like „EU monkeys“ ( referring to Barnier etc ), EUSSR, Nazi ( referring to German politicians and ideas ), 4th Reich etc., or suggesting „youngsters“ should go and see WW2 films to see a leading EU country as the aggressor against plucky Brits. The film „Dunkirk“ has been criticised as portraying British troops as being all white and neglecting Commonwealth troops.
Massive propaganda of the worst sort. And racist against Germans. You know whwer I am coming from as these constant Nazi slurs insult my close family here.
Ironically it was Hitler who took Germany out of the League of Nations to regain it’s sovereignty and reoccupied the Rhineland breaking the then rules. He built up the military and embarked on making his sovereign nation state great again. We all know where that led and that is why we need the EU. Working together is economically better for the whole of Europe and does away with the „plucky Brits“ idea and aggressive nation states.
And I have never said one lie is more justified than another. So you are making things up again.
BTW there is a difference between making a wrong prediction and telling a barefaced lie.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I can't disagree with you. But I also can't agree.
Once we know what sort of deal is made we will have a better idea which way it will go. Like I keep saying the EU should do what is best for the people of the EU. As we buy a lot more from the EU than we sell to them it is in their best interests to keep it as smooth as possible.
I still think that what we have heard so far has been an attempt to get us to stay in the EU. The money we put in each year will not be easy to replace. Maybe it could end up with us putting money into the EU each year to keep up with trading with them as we do now.
Something needs to be done to make the best out of a difficult situation.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Having read up about the 1975 vote I can see that people didn't vote for what they got. The truth was hidden from them. And other things were lies. And even more things couldn't be seen. Like at that time more people were leaving the UK than coming here to live. Who would have guessed that our population would go up by millions through immigration? Who would have guessed that the common market would become the EU and cost us billions each year to be in? Who would have guessed that it would make food prices much higher?
BTW I congratulate you on being the only person who knew the wall was coming down. Look at how many people got murdered trying to get to the west. Would they have tried if they knew it was going to happen?
The wall came down because of a 'mistake' It went from people being able to visit the West if they applied to go in advance to the wall coming down in just a few hours. And all because a message was misunderstood IIRC.
The wall came down because communism was bankrupt.
There was a mis communication about opening the border, but the fact that tanks didn’t roll is down to no decision or leadership on the situation coming from Moscow.
The Soviet Union was bankrupt and Gorbatschow had already told the DDR that they were too late coming to the party in effect.
The top people in the DDR said at the time they will all come back after the have had a look at the shops on KuDamm.
When I first went on business there just after the fall, I was dancing on the wall and the DDR police just smiled.
The restaurants were full of West Berliners eating on the cheap ( couldn’t get a table even with a bribe ) and even the tramps moved from the West to the east as alcohol was cheaper. I got 10:1 Ostmark against DM.
Officially it was 1:1. The best deal was at the government petrol station s which had to carry on the 1:1 lie. Tanking for a tenth of the value of you paid in Ostmark.
The Easterners left if they could and that’s why East Germany is still lowly populated, although cities like Leipzig are now growing. The country is not growing and is depressed in parts. Lots of older people as there are no jobs for the young.
You cannot say the wall fell because of a mis communication alone. That would never have happened had the Soviet Union been strong at the time. People were hoping and expecting the wall to fall and were ready to drive over the border. Things were already different.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
What hidden agenda or desire do you have with this Empire/Empire2 crap exactly?
Again, just because India says Indian immigration will be in discussions doesn't mean anything other than Britain & India will talk about it. Not have an open door policy or anything.
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
I did that already, but you fail to understand it or have not read it
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Once again the UK isn't going to be in a strong bargaining position when discussing trade deals with superpowers. We were told that the UK had the better hand compared to the EU and they'd be the easiest negotiations in history- turns out that was another lie as well.