The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (192 Viewers)

Kingokings204 · Jul 12, 2016

Monners said:
Al this talk of an un-elected EU elite - we now have an un-elected Prime Minister who has inherited a majority government. A direct result of Brexit - Democracy in action!

Anyway, at least the political classes have been shown up for what the are over the last couple of weeks. In my view, it's a shame it has cost us our place a the EU table. But, if it works out in the long term then fine - some uncertain times ahead though.

But the argument is that the Tory government won the general election not Cameron on his own. People come and go all the time in politics don't they. You can't call an election every time that happens but I take your point and yes it's fair to say we have elected Teresa may directly to be PM but if enough British people want to get rid of her in 4 years time they can.

I hear your words on the EU but I actually don't think it's that in certain. Take this point? We can trade with the world now on our own backs and get what's best for us not 27 others. We can set our own rules and own politicians. I would suggest staying in the EU was far more uncertain with a currency about to go bang and a migrant crisis ripping open most countries. Not to mention no borders and unelected politicians.

If we seize this great opportunity Monners we can be way ahead of the game here. Whilst everyone is struggling we can be long gone. Then when the EU goes bang we can all get back to our own currencies and own borders with our own polices and all work cooperate and trade freely with eachother. Democratic nation states don't go to war. It's the abolishment of nation states into one border and one currency with one policy fits all approach that really scared me and I certainly didn't want.

stupot07 · Jul 12, 2016

Kingokings204 said:
But the argument is that the Tory government won the general election not Cameron on his own. People come and go all the time in politics don't they. You can't call an election every time that happens but I take your point and yes it's fair to say we have elected Teresa may directly to be PM but if enough British people want to get rid of her in 4 years time they can.

Whilst I agree we don't have a presidential system, it's disingenuous to say that people don't vote for their local mp mainly based on who they would like to be prime minister. (I mean generally, not that you're saying it).

Even the Tory's were banging on about this when Blair stepped down and Brown became prime minister.

Unelected prime ministers must call a poll within six months: New Cameron vow attacks Brown's legitimacy | Daily Mail Online
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ele...ew-Cameron-vow-attacks-Browns-legitimacy.html

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Otis · Jul 12, 2016

Kingokings204 said:
But the argument is that the Tory government won the general election not Cameron on his own.

Tried to keep clear of this thread, but not sure I can agree with this.

Did people vote for Tony Blair or did they vote for the Labour party? I think an awful people voted for a Labour party LED by Tony Blair.

Did people vote for the Tories, or Margaret Thatcher? Again, I would say a lot of people voted for a party LED by Margaret Thatcher.

Johnson and Cameron think quite differently in a number of ways for instance and therefore the country's direction could be altered significantly by who leads the party. I don't know much about May.

I would also say that while Corbyn is Labour leader they won't get back in power.

An awful lot of people vote for the person at the helm.

Didn't Theresa May question Gordon Brown's mandate when he took over from Blair, saying there ought to be a general election?

If it had been Boris Johnson I bet there would be people who voted for Cameron who would not vote for Johnson.

Monners · Jul 12, 2016

As I say, hope it all works out in the long run.

Anyway, as you can see by the new avatar entitled "Monners meets Boris" it's time to move on! A week before he was heading from PM - by last Thursday he is on Platform 3 at Northampton station -" A quick photo Boris, you are still famous after all!" - I couldn't resist it! They say you should never meet your hero's, well I met an anti - hero!

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Ashdown said:
There are a lot of people in the UK without prospects and that will get a whole lot worse if we take all yours and Merkels Middle Eastern and African economic migrants. You are getting nastier and nastier Mart as we sort ourselves out and move towards a Brexit that won't be nearly as bad as some like you would have hoped for. Pound is creeping back up and FTSE 100 is rocking and rolling at it's best for 11 months.

I am not getting nasty. Ernie called me clueless. I pointed out that he was clueless. Speak to Ernie about name calling.

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
Why do you keep accusing everyone of listening to Farage if they voted out?

Are you accusing 52% of those who voted racist?

No. I am not accusing 52% of the population as being racist. Some obviously are, but probably a minority, and I am not accusing everyone of listening to Farage, although some like to use his type of language.,

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Kingokings204 said:
Oh come on Martcov. This is just laughable. Now I don't want to be rude because clearly you believe what you say but I would seriously consider just checking some facts and consider you're bias being in Germany and your staunch defence of Merkel et al.

And to conclude yes I do claim and I am a democrat because the result was a 52% leave and remain got 48% and you are the the one telling me you're the democrat and not me. Refendum is not legal and it was "a close" result. What's close got to do with it if it's not legal anyway. Come on. Pull the other one.

You also went on to say "we are democrats if it only goes our way" now that's the quote of the day for me.

Just re read your last post and I have no doubt you mean it.

The refendum was not binding - where do I say it was not legal? I said that at the end of the day, only parliament can pull the trigger - not May, unless she uses an outdated and controversial Royal Perogative. That would not be democratic. Please check the facts and come back to me on that.

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
No. I am not accusing 52% of the population as being racist. Some obviously are, but probably a minority, and I am not accusing everyone of listening to Farage, although some like to use his type of language.,

But you have thrown the insults about at times. Lost count how many I got. Like ill informed and Farage follower. I didn't even vote leave. I even got called racist but not by you.

What you have is an opinion from Germany. A pro EU country. You want a federal state. Not met any fooker over here who wants the same. You have accused me of not caring about any of the immigrants. Like I said I care about our country and what it will become for my kids and grandkids. I have 2 of them now.

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
The refendum was not binding - where do I say it was not legal? I said that at the end of the day, only parliament can pull the trigger - not May, unless she uses an outdated and controversial Royal Perogative. That would not be democratic. Please check the facts and come back to me on that.

What do you think that democratic means?

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
I'm certain I'm not the only one who believes that there's absolutely no point in arguing with you because you respond with incoherent rambling rants which almost inevitably seem to involve irrelevant references to Farage, Boris, the breakup of the UK and racism.

Take your post above for example. It's hilarious. A real gem, honestly.

How do you conclude from my post that I believe Farage? Where's that come from? Where do you get the notion that I think Syria will last for ever? Your posts are so bloody mad. It really is ludicrously funny. Genuinely.

Then there's your line about me not realising something about young people in Africa.
and
"the geographical closeness of Africa to southern Italy ( Scilily and the islands )"

It's utter madness but so damn funny. Almost brilliant.

Oh and finally I am supposed to have loyalty to 'bullshit demagogues'.

I absolutely love it. Keep up the good work madmart.

I am not ranting, just answering in your tone. Farage and Johnson were not counted as irrelevant by most people. They got a hell of a lot of air-time.
You are clearly of the same opinion as Farage, maybe it is just coincidence.

"The exodus of Syrian refugees into Turkey was transformed virtually overnight into a flood of sub-continent and North African economic migrants across Europes borders by Merkel's 'Open Doors' statement."

I was trying to point out that Merkel said " wir schaffen es " and that, yes, a flood of people interpreted that that everyone could come, but Merkel has now said that the Syrian refugee crisis won't last for ever and that the real problem will be Africa. Italy will have the problem because of being near to Africa - it has islands including Sicily ( my autocorrect changes words - mainly to German - and it was misspelt ). The EU will have to help Italy with this problem.

You answered "Hahaha you really are utterly clueless". We were talking about Italy's problems being not just caused by the Euro or the EU. If you don't want to accept the geographical reality and the boats heading for Italy and the growing population of Africa, then ok - fine by me.

As for defending Merkel, I have seen Farage on TV claiming that Merkel wanted "as many people as possible to come to Europe". That is a blatant lie and I pointed that out. If you want to criticise Merkel, then ok - also fine by me -, but stick to the facts, or at least check what I am saying before you say that I am clueless.

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
But you have thrown the insults about at times. Lost count how many I got. Like ill informed and Farage follower. I didn't even vote leave. I even got called racist but not by you.

What you have is an opinion from Germany. A pro EU country. You want a federal state. Not met any fooker over here who wants the same. You have accused me of not caring about any of the immigrants. Like I said I care about our country and what it will become for my kids and grandkids. I have 2 of them now.

The only insults that I can recall are in answer to people throwing insults in my direction. You called me a wanker...but I didn't call you anything like that ( as an example of insult throwing ). You have a different interpretation of a federal state to me - I live in a federal state ... Germany. My state is Schleswig-Holstein and we have a state parliament which is represented in a state council for negotiating with the federal government. The richer states subsidise the poorer states and the system seems to function - although the poorer states always want more and the richer states want to pay less blaming the poorer ones for inefficiency etc.. Sounds familiar? You have a United Kingdom with Westminster calling most of the shots. There is now talk of a federal kingdom as an alternative to a break up of the UK. John Major is a supporter of this idea. So, you may at some future time end up in a federal kingdom - who knows? My kid is going to school in England in September, so maybe she will want to stay there...again who knows? But it will be up to her if she stays in the UK or comes back to the EU. She has dual citizenship.

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
What do you think that democratic means?

That the democratic system of the UK is used when taking decisions of this importance. The referendum was non-binding and parliament has the ultimate say and must repeal the EU joining law which was passed when we joined. To do that there has to be a debate in parliament followed by a vote. We should have an election before the vote to ensure that the MPs have a valid up-to-date mandate, based on the arguments for and against the EU. The voters will vote for the candidates that represent them. That is our parliamentary democracy - we don't have a direct democratic system.

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
The only insults that I can recall are in answer to people throwing insults in my direction. You called me a wanker...but I didn't call you anything like that ( as an example of insult throwing ). You have a different interpretation of a federal state to me - I live in a federal state ... Germany. My state is Schleswig-Holstein and we have a state parliament which is represented in a state council for negotiating with the federal government. The richer states subsidise the poorer states and the system seems to function - although the poorer states always want more and the richer states want to pay less blaming the poorer ones for inefficiency etc.. Sounds familiar? You have a United Kingdom with Westminster calling most of the shots. There is now talk of a federal kingdom as an alternative to a break up of the UK. John Major is a supporter of this idea. So, you may at some future time end up in a federal kingdom - who knows? My kid is going to school in England in September, so maybe she will want to stay there...again who knows? But it will be up to her if she stays in the UK or comes back to the EU. She has dual citizenship.

I used to bite easily. Now I don't. It takes a lot before I throw around the insults. I normally get a fair few first.

You can keep your federal states. And I wonder if you would like it as much when run from another country.

John Major? Forgot about that cardboard cutout. He has as much of a say here as Farage. None.

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
That the democratic system of the UK is used when taking decisions of this importance. The referendum was non-binding and parliament has the ultimate say and must repeal the EU joining law which was passed when we joined. To do that there has to be a debate in parliament followed by a vote. We should have an election before the vote to ensure that the MPs have a valid up-to-date mandate, based on the arguments for and against the EU. The voters will vote for the candidates that represent them. That is our parliamentary democracy - we don't have a direct democratic system.

That is nice.

So what does democracy mean?

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
That is nice.

So what does democracy mean?

The populace voting in a democratic system. There are various forms of democracy. E.g. A proportional representational parliamentary system ( with or without a minimum percentage of the vote requirement e.g. here a the party has to get 5% of the vote to get seats in parliament ). A first-past-the-post parliamentary democracy as in the UK. A direct democracy as is often used in Switzerland where referenda are common place. So it depends upon which system is in place where you are voting - in the UK it is a parliamentary democracy with the first-past-the-post system.

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
I used to bite easily. Now I don't. It takes a lot before I throw around the insults. I normally get a fair few first.

You can keep your federal states. And I wonder if you would like it as much when run from another country.

John Major? Forgot about that cardboard cutout. He has as much of a say here as Farage. None.

Luckily you don't bite as easily as a few days ago ;-). Major is one person, but there are people discussing a federal kingdom and we don't know what is going to happen with Northern Ireland and Scotland as a result of Brexit, not to mention Plaid Cymru trying to get on the bandwagon with them. As I said, who knows?

Ashdown · Jul 12, 2016

This must be another blow to you Mart :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36771595

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
I used to bite easily. Now I don't. It takes a lot before I throw around the insults. I normally get a fair few first.

You can keep your federal states. And I wonder if you would like it as much when run from another country.

John Major? Forgot about that cardboard cutout. He has as much of a say here as Farage. None.

There is a difference between being run by another country ( ask Scotland or Northern Ireland about that - they have past experience ) and being run from another country ( if Brussels were to be the capital of a Federal Europe - Belgium would not be runnig Europe, the Federal Government would be ).

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Ashdown said:
This must be another blow to you Mart :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36771595

I don't work for Siemens and I don't want the UK to go down the tubes. I am just not as optimistic as you about brexit.

Having said that..

The company has insisted this investment will continue and will be used to meet local demand, but Mr Kaeser said new trade barriers could make it uneconomical to export the blades to Denmark and Germany.

He still wants clarification of what is going on. His company was in the UK before the EU. As I recall ( from my dodgy memory ) he was paying his staff in Euros in the UK ( converted into pounds of course ) to have a fixed way of calculating production costs ( I don't know if he still is ).

skybluetony176 · Jul 12, 2016

Monners said:
Al this talk of an un-elected EU elite - we now have an un-elected Prime Minister who has inherited a majority government. A direct result of Brexit - Democracy in action!

Anyway, at least the political classes have been shown up for what the are over the last couple of weeks. In my view, it's a shame it has cost us our place a the EU table. But, if it works out in the long term then fine - some uncertain times ahead though.

I heard on the radio earlier that about half of the PM's over the last hundred years were appointed rather than elected. There's been 3 in my lifetime May , Brown and Major. Although John Major did go on to win an election after being appointed. Wasn't Winston Churchill appointed when he first became PM?

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
The refendum was not binding - where do I say it was not legal? I said that at the end of the day, only parliament can pull the trigger - not May, unless she uses an outdated and controversial Royal Perogative. That would not be democratic. Please check the facts and come back to me on that.

martcov said:
in the UK it is a parliamentary democracy with the first-past-the-post system.

So you say that it is first past the post. But you say although it was first past the post that it wouldn't be democratic unless it went to another vote?

We elected them to fulfill our wishes. It wasn't to give them a vote on what they gave us a vote on. We are not a federal state. We don't need someone to decide whether we have made the right decision or not in their view.

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
I heard on the radio earlier that about half of the PM's over the last hundred were appointed rather than elected. There's been 3 in my lifetime May , Brown and Major. Although John Major did go on to win an election after being appointed. Wasn't Winston Churchill appointed when he first became PM?

And voted out in his first election.

And there is the point. We can vote out those in our own country. Even those who helped save us from being taken over by a Nazi Germany.

Monners · Jul 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
I heard on the radio earlier that about half of the PM's over the last hundred were appointed rather than elected. There's been 3 in my lifetime May , Brown and Major. Although John Major did go on to win an election after being appointed. Wasn't Winston Churchill appointed when he first became PM?

And Jim Callaghan (in my lifetime anyway)

skybluetony176 · Jul 12, 2016

Monners said:
And Jim Callaghan (in my lifetime anyway)

When was that? Might have been in mine also.

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Astute said:
So you say that it is first past the post. But you say although it was first past the post that it wouldn't be democratic unless it went to another vote?

We elected them to fulfill our wishes. It wasn't to give them a vote on what they gave us a vote on. We are not a federal state. We don't need someone to decide whether we have made the right decision or not in their view.

A major constitutional change normally means there is 60% or 2/3 majority needed - in other countries. There was no minimum %age set as this was an advisory referendum and is not binding on parliament. That is not me making it up. It is fact. In this case the advisory referendum was first-past-the-post, but our system is still a parliamentary democracy - whichever side had won ( as Mr Farage said - 52:48 is unfinished business ).

So we are in the EU until after the leaving process, and this can only be triggered by an act of Parliament - or Royal Perogative via May. The democratic process would be better served by a vote than by Perogative. May would otherwise be overruling/ deciding for parliament on the most important decision in the post war period. You probably wouldn't like that.

Kingokings204 · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
A major constitutional change normally means there is 60% or 2/3 majority needed - in other countries. There was no minimum %age set as this was an advisory referendum and is not binding on parliament. That is not me making it up. It is fact. In this case the advisory referendum was first-past-the-post, but our system is still a parliamentary democracy - whichever side had won ( as Mr Farage said - 52:48 is unfinished business ).

So we are in the EU until after the leaving process, and this can only be triggered by an act of Parliament - or Royal Perogative via May. The democratic process would be better served by a vote than by Perogative. May would otherwise be overruling/ deciding for parliament on the most important decision in the post war period. You probably wouldn't like that.

How is saying unfinished business calling for a second referendum or anything a like. We have already been through the exact quote where he said this is a once in a lifetime vote and I accept the result. Back in the thread. Don't see what you're getting at? Remainers have actually protested for a second referendum. But different to "unfinished business"

Also I agree it's not binding or legal or whatever but the point is it was a clear mandate and majority. It had the most people take part ever in an election/referendum. It was the biggest question in our lifetimes.

We voted to leave. Wake up man.

We don't want to be part of a European super state and all the laws policies legislation currencies and borders that come with that. The people have clearly spoken to the tune of 1.4m people. And you want to go against this and call yourself a democrat because it's not binding. Well there we are.

Grendel · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
That the democratic system of the UK is used when taking decisions of this importance. The referendum was non-binding and parliament has the ultimate say and must repeal the EU joining law which was passed when we joined. To do that there has to be a debate in parliament followed by a vote. We should have an election before the vote to ensure that the MPs have a valid up-to-date mandate, based on the arguments for and against the EU. The voters will vote for the candidates that represent them. That is our parliamentary democracy - we don't have a direct democratic system.

We shouldn't have an election before the vote as the government pledged to have a referendum and to honour that referendum during this parliament.

Monners · Jul 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
When was that? Might have been in mine also.

1976 - 79 (when Maggie go in). He replaced Harold Wilson.

Astute · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
A major constitutional change normally means there is 60% or 2/3 majority needed - in other countries. There was no minimum %age set as this was an advisory referendum and is not binding on parliament. That is not me making it up. It is fact. In this case the advisory referendum was first-past-the-post, but our system is still a parliamentary democracy - whichever side had won ( as Mr Farage said - 52:48 is unfinished business ).

So we are in the EU until after the leaving process, and this can only be triggered by an act of Parliament - or Royal Perogative via May. The democratic process would be better served by a vote than by Perogative. May would otherwise be overruling/ deciding for parliament on the most important decision in the post war period. You probably wouldn't like that.

Why is it that you agree that Farage is full of shit but you still quote him frequently?

You can keep your German voting systems. We voted out. We want out. Cameron's replacement is a remainer. But she understands the importance of following the majorities instructions.

Have you noticed that the scare stories are being proven wrong one by one?

skybluetony176 · Jul 12, 2016

Monners said:
1976 - 79 (when Maggie go in). He replaced Harold Wilson.

Yep. That was in my lifetime also then. I was three years old so that probably explains why I don't remember it

Grendel · Jul 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Yep. That was in my lifetime also then. I was three years old so that probably explains why I don't remember it

Clearly as much an historian as an economist then.

martcov · Jul 12, 2016

Grendel said:
We shouldn't have an election before the vote as the government pledged to have a referendum and to honour that referendum during this parliament.

The vote was not a big majority and there are millions of dissatisfied voters- 48% of them.

Frankfurt is chomping at the bit for a share of the spoils if London loses it's position of financial capital of Europe. As are Paris and Dublin to a lesser extent.

This a major event and the parliament has - should have - to pass it.

If May pulls the trigger there will be major repurcussions. The Royal perogative would, in effect, be a decree. Parliament should debate it, but if there were an election the local selection Committees could put pressure on their MPs, so surely they would have to repeal the European Act which brought us in?

chiefdave · Jul 12, 2016

chiefdave said:
If they keep him off the ballot how much of the membership would they lose? And how much union support? If Corbyn was persuaded by the unions to split off I can ownership of the Labour party ending up in court.

Looking at the wording in Labours rule book I can't see how they can not let him stand.

B. Nomination

i. In the case of a vacancy for leader or deputy leader, each nomination must be supported by 15 per cent of the combined Commons members of the PLP and members of the EPLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void.

ii. Where there is no vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of Party conference. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the combined Commons members of the PLP and members of the EPLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void.

Quite clearly states that in the current situation, where there is no vacancy, only challengers need nominations.

skybluetony176 · Jul 12, 2016

martcov said:
The vote was not a big majority and there are millions of dissatisfied voters- 48% of them.

Frankfurt is chomping at the bit for a share of the spoils if London loses it's position of financial capital of Europe. As are Paris and Dublin to a lesser extent.

This a major event and the parliament has - should have - to pass it.

If May pulls the trigger there will be major repurcussions. The Royal perogative would, in effect, be a decree. Parliament should debate it, but if there were an election the local selection Committees could put pressure on their MPs, so surely they would have to repeal the European Act which brought us in?

This is exactly why we'll be staying in the common market as the residents of Canary Wharf and the wider London financial community will still have passporting rights into the EU. Of course this also means we'll still have free movement of people with the EU and we'll still be making a financial contribution to the EU also.

Teresa May will take the fall for it and a large section of brexit voters will feel cheated but this was always going to be the case regardless of who the next PM was, well maybe except Gove but maybe this is why he wasn't backed enough in the leadership vote. Well that and he's an untrustworthy back stabber.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 12, 2016

chiefdave said:
Looking at the wording in Labours rule book I can't see how they can not let him stand.

Quite clearly states that in the current situation, where there is no vacancy, only challengers need nominations.

It'd be ludicrous in the extreme to stop him anyway.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (192 Viewers)

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