The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (181 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

Pigeon holing people again Mart.......is exactly what the Remoaners have done ever since they LOST !!

fuck me, you couldn't make it up!

 

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[Astute]

You're contradictions are in your own post and have already been pointed out to you. Mass corruption and organised crime has crippled Italy as well as ridiculous domestic policies that stifle small businesses and those looking to work freelance etc, all of which has nothing to do with the EU.

Young Italians I have spoken to have mostly tended to point blame at their successive governments and organised crime.

There is anger of the handling of the refugee crisis though, which is aimed more at individual countries like France and the UK for not taking on their share of these people. Personally, I don't think the country of first entry should shoulder all of the burden, and it's an area I think needs reform.

Point them out then.

Just like as you make other accusations like you said about me saying Germany wants out of the EU. But you couldn't point out where I have said it.

So you are saying that Italians are blaming the French and us and not the EU?

Here is a good read about the present problems. It describes them very well.

If the euro cracks, blame Germany, not the Italians

Italians happy with the EU?

Italians fall out of love with the EU - but will they ever leave?

 

[Ashdown]

fuck me, you couldn't make it up!

Nah, you're alright mate !

 

[Sick Boy]

Point them out then.

Just like as you make other accusations like you said about me saying Germany wants out of the EU. But you couldn't point out where I have said it.

So you are saying that Italians are blaming the French and us and not the EU?

Here is a good read about the present problems. It describes them very well.

If the euro cracks, blame Germany, not the Italians

Italians happy with the EU?

Italians fall out of love with the EU - but will they ever leave?

They've already been pointed out to you, what's the point in doing it again? Your 2nd article opens with claims about a poll saying a majority want to remain in the eurozone and EU and the first is an opinion piece.

It's funny that you're all for polls one minute then not the next, still the article you posted states that only a minority actually want to leave the EU.

I'd rather go on my own experience of the country and its people rather than your desperation to try and claim counties across the EU are in admiration or Britain's choice.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yet some will still try and argue the point that many long standing political parties throughout the EU are losing votes. The unrest is getting worse. People have had enough of being dictated to by the EU.

Anyway @Astute, this was your response to Dart's article on the German elections and people having had enough of the EU.

Unless you're now suggesting that you were responding to an article about Germany but not talking about Germany and its voters, unless you believe other voters from other countries were able to vote in the elections?

 

[Astute]

They've already been pointed out to you, what's the point in doing it again? Your 2nd article opens with claims about a poll saying a majority want to remain in the eurozone and EU and the first is an opinion piece.

I'd rather go on my own experience of the country and its people rather than your desperation to try and claim counties across the EU are in admiration or Britain's choice.

Nothing was pointed out. Just accusations like when you said a couple if days ago I said the Germans wanted out if the EU but still haven't pointed out where I said it.

FFS. OK SB. You have a point to prove it seems. So where have I said that countries across the EU admire us for Brexit?

You are getting as bad as Mart for false news and false accusations.

The 1st is an opinion piece? It states a lot of facts. And was it you or Mart that said Italy is too big to fail but too big to save? They are in full agreement. They can't pay their debts. The EU wants more austerity in Italy. Italian plans keep within one EU financial rule but not another.

So listen carefully this time. This isn't me saying one or the other should happen as I was accused last time.

The only way out for Italy other than serious austerity measures is either default on their debt repayments or to have much of it written off.

And you wouldn't agree with serious austerity measures as you always had a go at smaller austerity measures in the UK.

 

[martcov]

Nothing was pointed out. Just accusations like when you said a couple if days ago I said the Germans wanted out if the EU but still haven't pointed out where I said it.

FFS. OK SB. You have a point to prove it seems. So where have I said that countries across the EU admire us for Brexit?

You are getting as bad as Mart for false news and false accusations.

The 1st is an opinion piece? It states a lot of facts. And was it you or Mart that said Italy is too big to fail but too big to save? They are in full agreement. They can't pay their debts. The EU wants more austerity in Italy. Italian plans keep within one EU financial rule but not another.

So listen carefully this time. This isn't me saying one or the other should happen as I was accused last time.

The only way out for Italy other than serious austerity measures is either default on their debt repayments or to have much of it written off.

And you wouldn't agree with serious austerity measures as you always had a go at smaller austerity measures in the UK.

To correct you: Mart doesn’t make false news or accusations. You often put things into my mouth and then claim that I said them.

 

[Grendel]

fuck me, you couldn't make it up!

Mad Mart makes it up all the time

 

[Astute]

Yet some will still try and argue the point that many long standing political parties throughout the EU are losing votes. The unrest is getting worse. People have had enough of being dictated to by the EU.

Anyway @Astute, this was your response to Dart's article on the German elections and people having had enough of the EU.

Unless you're now suggesting that you were responding to an article about Germany but not talking about Germany and its voters, unless you believe other voters from other countries were able to vote in the elections?

I don't get the point you are trying to make.

I have pointed out that right wing votes throughout the EU are growing in most countries of the EU. The UK is one of the rare countries that they are not. But you continually try to make out that I have said something totally different to try and change the subject. Just like when you accused me of saying Germany wants out of the EU a couple of days ago.

 

[Astute]

To correct you: Mart doesn’t make false news or accusations. You often put things into my mouth and then claim that I said them.

And was it you or Mart that said Italy is too big to fail but too big to save?

So are you disagreeing with SB or myself?

Was it you that agreed with me that Italy is too big to fail but too big to save?

And for putting things in your mouth? That is where I call you out when contradicting yourself. Or saying the opposite of someone that you always normally agree with no matter how wrong they are.

 

[Sick Boy]

Nothing was pointed out. Just accusations like when you said a couple if days ago I said the Germans wanted out if the EU but still haven't pointed out where I said it.

FFS. OK SB. You have a point to prove it seems. So where have I said that countries across the EU admire us for Brexit?

You are getting as bad as Mart for false news and false accusations.

The 1st is an opinion piece? It states a lot of facts. And was it you or Mart that said Italy is too big to fail but too big to save? They are in full agreement. They can't pay their debts. The EU wants more austerity in Italy. Italian plans keep within one EU financial rule but not another.

So listen carefully this time. This isn't me saying one or the other should happen as I was accused last time.

The only way out for Italy other than serious austerity measures is either default on their debt repayments or to have much of it written off.

And you wouldn't agree with serious austerity measures as you always had a go at smaller austerity measures in the UK.

I'm going to call it a day 'debating' this topic with you as it's increasingly becoming a waste of time and your twisting everything and general hypocrisy.

 

[Astute]

I'm going to call it a day 'debating' this topic with you as it's increasingly becoming a waste of time and your twisting everything and general hypocrisy.

Me twisting everything? You keep saying that I have said something but when I ask you to point out where I have said it you haven't once pointed it out. All I can think is that you are trying to stop me from talking the truth on here. Because it doesn't look good for the future of the EU and the Euro.

Italy needs saving for the good future of the EU and Euro. But who is going to pay for it? But if Italy stays in the Euro they will never recover.

 

[skybluetony176]

The 1st is an opinion piece? It states a lot of facts.

I’m glad that you think the author talks sense based on facts. Have you seen his opinion on brexit? Self-immolation is how he’s described it.

 

[Astute]

Italy not a threat to the future of the EU?

Threatened by Italy and Brexit, the EU must turn the tide | Martin Kettle

Crisis Redux: Italy Sends a Jolt Through Europe - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

How worried should we be about an Italian debt crisis? | Bruegel

Then we have growths in right wing in the EU that a couple on here try to deny

http://time.com

 

[Sick Boy]

All I can think is that you are trying to stop me from talking the truth on here.

As I said, it's absolutely pointless and waste of time.

Anyway, the right-wing is growing across the western world in general, not just the EU. Unless you blame the EU for far-right terrorism in the USA, which i'm sure you could well do.

 

[skybluetony176]

Italy can get out of it the same as Ireland did. Problem for Italy is it has long failed to come to terms with corruption and the mafia. It also still paying for the legacy of Berlursconi. Italy’s very own Trump. Non of that is going to change by leaving either the Euro or the EU. It’s down to decades and decades of failing domestic policies. It’s going to be a long road for Italy and there’s no assurance that they’re going to take the right turns.

 

[Astute]

I’m glad that you think the author talks sense based on facts. Have you seen his opinion on brexit? Self-immolation is how he’s described it.

Yes I have seen it. And I don't deny it. I don't want Brexit to happen although now I know more about how the EU is run I have shifted towards leaving. But it still isn't my preference. This is something those who want to stay in the EU whatever can't get their heads around.

I don't search for links that are only good on one side. I look for something as neutral as I can find. And I am glad you have noticed and even mentioned it for once.

 

[Astute]

As I said, it's absolutely pointless and waste of time.

Of course it is. Because I ask you to point out where your allegations are. And you can't point them out as they don't exist. And you don't like anyone saying anything bad about the EU or Italy. You just want it to be about how bad things could get for the UK and nothing else.

 

[Sick Boy]

Of course it is. Because I ask you to point out where your allegations are. And you can't point them out as they don't exist. And you don't like anyone saying anything bad about the EU or Italy. You just want it to be about how bad things could get for the UK and nothing else.

It's actually due to your belief that only you speak 'the truth' and your continued attempts to portray yourself as omnipresent.

 

[Astute]

Italy can get out of it the same as Ireland did. Problem for Italy is it has long failed to come to terms with corruption and the mafia. It also still paying for the legacy of Berlursconi. Italy’s very own Trump. Non of that is going to change by leaving either the Euro or the EU. It’s down to decades and decades of failing domestic policies. It’s going to be a long road for Italy and there’s no assurance that they’re going to take the right turns.

The big question is what is the right road to take.

Whichever road is taken needs a lot of help from someone.

But I can't see the EU wanting to help too much. They could have wiped out the debts of Greece. But it would have sent the wrong message to everyone else. So I would guess that help to Italy from the EU will be limited.

Hundreds of billions of debt is owed from Italy to Germany and France. But most of it is owed to France. Germany writing off the debt would only be like using a sticking plaster. And why should Germany write off the debt?

 

[Astute]

It's actually due to your belief that only you speak 'the truth' and your continued attempts to portray yourself as omnipresent.

I don't accuse you of saying what you haven't. I am still waiting for you to show everyone where I have said what you have accused me of.

So I say that things might get bad for the UK. You agree with me. I say that things might get bad for Italy which would cause major problems for the EU and Euro. You don't want to talk about it.

 

[Sick Boy]

I don't accuse you of saying what you haven't. I am still waiting for you to show everyone where I have said what you have accused me of.

So I say that things might get bad for the UK. You agree with me. I say that things might get bad for Italy which would cause major problems for the EU and Euro. You don't want to talk about it.

They've already been pointed out to you. On one hand you claimed that austerity was for the best for Britain, yet for Italy it was a negative.

And things have been bad for Italy for years, it's nothing new.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes I have seen it. And I don't deny it. I don't want Brexit to happen although now I know more about how the EU is run I have shifted towards leaving. But it still isn't my preference. This is something those who want to stay in the EU whatever can't get their heads around.

I don't search for links that are only good on one side. I look for something as neutral as I can find. And I am glad you have noticed and even mentioned it for once.

Ha ha ha, yeah ok. Another juxtaposed of position from astute.

 

[Astute]

They've already been pointed out to you. On one hand you claimed that austerity was for the best for Britain, yet for Italy it was a negative.

And things have been bad for Italy for years, it's nothing new.

You have pointed nothing out at all.

How about pointing out where you have pointed it out other than you just saying that you have already pointed something out.

 

[Sick Boy]

You have pointed nothing out at all.

How about pointing out where you have pointed it out other than you just saying that you have already pointed something out.

It's all in the history of this thread for you to find.

 

[Sick Boy]

Ha ha ha, yeah ok. Another juxtaposed of position from astute.

He has claimed to have switched sides multiple times now.

 

[Astute]

Ha ha ha, yeah ok. Another juxtaposed of position from astute.

Explain yourself.

So what part is wrong?

Why is it that I point out the bad with Brexit and other things in the EU but the Brexit part is ignored by certain people and the bad parts of the EU are ignored or argued against even though they are so obviously right?

 

[Astute]

It's all in the history of this thread for you to find.

Show the history.

If it was there you would. It is all the last couple of days. Not hard to find. Well it wouldn't be if it existed.

So back on to Italy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...98507a-5eb5-11e8-b2b8-08a538d9dbd6_story.html

 

[Sick Boy]

Show the history.

If it was there you would. It is all the last couple of days. Not hard to find. Well it wouldn't be if it existed.

So back on to Italy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...98507a-5eb5-11e8-b2b8-08a538d9dbd6_story.html

No, thanks.

And I have no wish to 'debate' with you, it's an utter farce.

 

[Astute]

He has claimed to have switched sides multiple times now.

Have I?

I didn't vote leave. I have never voted UKIP like someone on here hey Tony.

You are only happy with someone who says EU good UK bad.

 

[Sick Boy]

Have I?

I didn't vote leave. I have never voted UKIP like someone on here hey Tony.

You are only happy with someone who says EU good UK bad.

You claimed that you had now switched to being full-on leave a few months ago before claiming that you were previously remain. Probably so that you can claim to be on either side depending how it pans out.



For me you've already been pro-Brexit and always will be.

 

[Astute]

No, thanks.

And I have no wish to 'debate' with you, it's an utter farce.

Exactly. You accuse then refuse to point out where it has been said because it doesn't exist.

And you know I am right about the Italian situation and can't twist the truth so you don't want to talk about it. Yet you say that the EU is strong and all EU countries are as one. No they are not. The one voice is the one we get to hear about.

And this is maybe a good reason to leave the EU. Get out before it all crumbles down. But if course you will deny it but not talk about why it could happen.

 

[skybluetony176]

The big question is what is the right road to take.

Whichever road is taken needs a lot of help from someone.

But I can't see the EU wanting to help too much. They could have wiped out the debts of Greece. But it would have sent the wrong message to everyone else. So I would guess that help to Italy from the EU will be limited.

Hundreds of billions of debt is owed from Italy to Germany and France. But most of it is owed to France. Germany writing off the debt would only be like using a sticking plaster. And why should Germany write off the debt?

They need a straight laced government that declares war on historic corruption and the mafia. The two go hand in hand. The EU should back them in doing this, there should be no stone unturned and no immunity for anyone. There’s a reason why the major crossing for illegal immigrants from Africa to Europe is Libya to Italy and it’s historical political and criminal links. Look at who’s been involved in that historically in all aspects and you have your starting point.

Libya and the mafia go back decades and links to terrorism from the IRA to ISIS in supplying and overseeing the supply of arms to laundering antiquities pilferaged by ISIS to facilitating the migrant crisis in the EU. The mafia is an EU problem but for the most part has to be dealt with in Italy, secondly Malta where the mafia issues is largely under reported by the media and is a much larger issue than many realise.

 

[Astute]

You claimed that you had now switched to being full-on leave a few months ago before claiming that you were previously remain. Probably so that you can claim to be on either side depending how it pans out.

View attachment 10847

For me you've already been pro-Brexit and always will be.

And what have I been saying?

I agreed with him that the EU is in danger because of the Italian situation. And I have said that they want us to stay in as long as they can get us to so they can continue to take billions off us each year. Are you saying this is wrong?

So apart from agreeing with this where did I say Germany wants out of the EU?

 

[Astute]

They need a straight laced government that declares war on historic corruption and the mafia. The two go hand in hand. The EU should back them in doing this, there should be no stone unturned and no immunity for anyone. There’s a reason why the major crossing for illegal immigrants from Africa to Europe is Libya to Italy and it’s historical political and criminal links. Look at who’s been involved in that historically in all aspects and you have your starting point.

Libya and the mafia go back decades and links to terrorism from the IRA to ISIS in supplying and overseeing the supply of arms to laundering antiquities pilferaged by ISIS to facilitating the migrant crisis in the EU. The mafia is an EU problem but for the most part has to be dealt with in Italy, secondly Malta where the mafia issues is largely under reported by the media and is a much larger issue than many realise.

Yes they need to start at the bottom. But they have been trying for years to get rid of the mafia problem.

But short term how does the problem get resolved?