The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (108 Viewers)

martcov · Feb 26, 2019

Astute said:
Last comment on this bullshit from me.

You asked what the Nazis would have done if they won the war. My reply was most probably murdered the rest of the Jews then wiped them off the planet. And that we would all be speaking in German if they never murdered us as well.

Your reply was maybe, but........

You didn't want to have a debate on what would have happened if the Nazis had won the war. The 'but' and then changing it straight onto Churchill said everything. They were on a murder spree and would have continued it. Nobody knows what they would have done next. Yes they would most probably hung or shot Churchill. But why are you so sure it would have gone to a court? They had been murdering millions of people for years. No comment about what happened at Oradour sur Glane. No nothing but one person.

This is why I know it was you having a go at Churchill. You didn't want to consider anything else at all. I continued to ask you why you wanted to talk about Churchill being a war criminal on a Brexit thread. But you never replied once.

Keep having a pop at who you want. You are not worth any more of my time.

You are crazy and have a comprehension problem.

There was one question and I answered it. The Nazis would have tried Churchill as a war criminal. That is what they said they would do.

Then came a second question from Grendel. Why would they do that. I answered because of the bombing of civilians. As an example: Dresden.

The rest you made up and you are actually having an argument with yourself which is why I am not involved in arguing about German war crimes or potential things they would have done, other than answering the original questions.

Astute · Feb 26, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Likely though but yep. I just think it’s appropriate. I have changed my own opinion from discussions on here. I think it’s a wafer thin majority but people voted in good faith rather than being duped or manipulated. It’s insane what we are doing but I like in a representative democracy and Cameron asked us all our thoughts. If we can’t make a deal then one has to think it’s apprpriate to ask people again. In the detail obviously.

At this moment in time I’m pretty certain it would be very close and a likely slight majority for still leaving

In spite of everything we now know

The problem isn't what we know. The problem is what we think we know. So much bullshit has been said since before the referendum that someone whatever their thoughts on the matter are can bring something up that backs their claims up however preposterous they are.

Just look at it on here. Most of us are more educated on the matter than the majority of the UK population. But try and get everyone to agree on something. I say it how I see it. Yet look at the comments from those desperate for us to stay in the EU. You would think that I have hatred for the EU. No. But I totally dislike the way it is run. So do all the leaders of the countries in the EU. But this point is always ignored.

I would be constantly wrong if I was just on rants against the EU like some go on rants against the UK and leave voters. Yet I have got just about everything right. I was saying for ages that we wouldn't leave without a deal next month. Now finally I am starting to look right.

The MP's don't want Brexit. May doesn't want Brexit. But she needs to do it in a way that doesn't cause riots in the street.

And finally Corbyn has opened his mouth on the subject. But I can't see another referendum solving anything. Any vote would be close. We had a near 4% difference last time. What difference would we need on another referendum for it to be accepted? And there are millions that won't accept any result they don't want whatever the winning margin.

It is nothing but a shitfest that will get more shit.

Astute · Feb 26, 2019

martcov said:
There was one question and I answered it. The Nazis would have tried Churchill as a war criminal. That is what they said they would do.

Link?

Of course not.

martcov · Feb 26, 2019

Astute said:
Link?

Of course not.

Google it. Educate yourself.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 26, 2019

It’s gonna go mental if deal is not agreed on 12th March. Can see lots of cabinet resignations and no real way forward.

Sick Boy · Feb 26, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
It’s gonna go mental if deal is not agreed on 12th March. Can see lots of cabinet resignations and no real way forward.

Now more than ever it looks like it won’t happen, weird considering it was supposed to be so easy. No doubt we’ll get the usual blaming of remain voters, yet again.

skybluetony176 · Feb 26, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Now more than ever it looks like it won’t happen, weird considering it was supposed to be so easy. No doubt we’ll get the usual blaming of remain voters, yet again.

That’s the thing. For something that was promised to be so easy it ain’t half hard work.

skybluetony176 · Feb 26, 2019

Funny how the pounds shot up today of the back of the news that Parliament will get a vote on delaying Brexit. Surely if it was going to be the promised utopia then the pound would have dropped at the prospect of a delay.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Feb 26, 2019

martcov said:
I condemned the Dresden bombing. That was after you chipped in. I still do. I understand arguments for it, but I think that attacking a city containing huge numbers of refugees and hardly defended as they were not a military target, was probably a war crime. The fact that the people who took part openly expressed regret in interviews and the Queen went with them to the reconsecrecation of the Frauenkirche shows that it is not just me who regrets the attacks.

Rees Mogg said the concentration camps were for the benefit of the internees.

You are a prize prick. The Dresden bombings could have been avoided some time before, round about September 1939 .
I bet you'd have planned and executed D-Day perfectly without one fatality on the allied side.

It's easy after the event to say this or that should have been done/avoided. You are one of these boring twats who like to analyse after the event and give us the benefit of your intellectual bullshit. First class honours in hindsight.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 26, 2019

Astute said:
The problem isn't what we know. The problem is what we think we know. So much bullshit has been said since before the referendum that someone whatever their thoughts on the matter are can bring something up that backs their claims up however preposterous they are.

Just look at it on here. Most of us are more educated on the matter than the majority of the UK population. But try and get everyone to agree on something. I say it how I see it. Yet look at the comments from those desperate for us to stay in the EU. You would think that I have hatred for the EU. No. But I totally dislike the way it is run. So do all the leaders of the countries in the EU. But this point is always ignored.

I would be constantly wrong if I was just on rants against the EU like some go on rants against the UK and leave voters. Yet I have got just about everything right. I was saying for ages that we wouldn't leave without a deal next month. Now finally I am starting to look right.

The MP's don't want Brexit. May doesn't want Brexit. But she needs to do it in a way that doesn't cause riots in the street.

And finally Corbyn has opened his mouth on the subject. But I can't see another referendum solving anything. Any vote would be close. We had a near 4% difference last time. What difference would we need on another referendum for it to be accepted? And there are millions that won't accept any result they don't want whatever the winning margin.

It is nothing but a shitfest that will get more shit.

The new Labour proposals seem to be that the new vote would be legally binding and would prevent any re-runs. You've got to admit, it would make the instructions for MPs a whole lot simpler and more unambiguous. Brexiteers would surely rally behind May's deal over cancelling Brexit and if it remains the popular opinion, it will be voted through again.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 26, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
You are a prize prick. The Dresden bombings could have been avoided some time before, round about September 1939 .
I bet you'd have planned and executed D-Day perfectly without one fatality on the allied side.

It's easy after the event to say this or that should have been done/avoided. You are one of these boring twats who like to analyse after the event and give us the benefit of your intellectual bullshit. First class honours in hindsight.

Dresden had no strategic importance and Germany was weeks from defeat. There was no point in razing it to the ground and just made rebuilding harder. As the Soviets found when they suddenly had to rebuild Berlin to working order

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 26, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
It'll be a certain vote loser in many Labour marginals. Great move imo.

Yes another 10 years of cuts, conning the public and passing off Labour ideas as one's own

Nick · Feb 26, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Feb 26, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Now more than ever it looks like it won’t happen, weird considering it was supposed to be so easy. No doubt we’ll get the usual blaming of remain voters, yet again.

errr….who else is to blame ?

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Feb 26, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Dresden had no strategic importance and Germany was weeks from defeat. There was no point in razing it to the ground and just made rebuilding harder. As the Soviets found when they suddenly had to rebuild Berlin to working order

All of this could of course been avoided in the first place. Bearing in mind what Germany did to much of Europe I've little sympathy. Apologies to Nazi lovers.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 26, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
All of this could of course been avoided in the first place. Bearing in mind what Germany did to much of Europe I've little sympathy. Apologies to Nazi lovers.

It meant that we as a bankrupt nation had to devote even more resources and money to the rebuilding efforts of a defeated nation. Even if you think that civilians are fair game if they belong to the enemy, it made post-war work harder

SkyblueBazza · Feb 26, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Funny how the pounds shot up today of the back of the news that Parliament will get a vote on delaying Brexit. Surely if it was going to be the promised utopia then the pound would have dropped at the prospect of a delay.

Not really...delay = prolonged uncertainty doesn't it?

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skybluetony176 · Feb 26, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Not really...delay = prolonged uncertainty doesn't it?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Yet the pound rallies. Why is that?

SkyblueBazza · Feb 26, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Yet the pound rallies. Why is that?

Don't know. And tbh - I couldn't care less either

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Alan Dugdales Moustache · Feb 26, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
It meant that we as a bankrupt nation had to devote even more resources and money to the rebuilding efforts of a defeated nation. Even if you think that civilians are fair game if they belong to the enemy, it made post-war work harder

Civilians were fair game on both sides. War is not an exact science. It's war. I don't disagree with what you say, but inevitably what comes out of a total war situation is the realisation of the enormity of its destruction and the long term consequences for all.

Captain Dart · Feb 26, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Dresden had no strategic importance and Germany was weeks from defeat. There was no point in razing it to the ground and just made rebuilding harder. As the Soviets found when they suddenly had to rebuild Berlin to working order

The war on the Western front wasn't a walk over at this stage, the allies were still encountering resistance, they lost a battle in the Hurtgen Forest (near Aachen, barely across the border) in mid Feb and other parts of the advance were barely into Germany. They didn't clear the Germans out of the Rhur till mid April when over 300,000 Germans surrendered, after that there was virtually no resistance.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Now more than ever it looks like it won’t happen, weird considering it was supposed to be so easy. No doubt we’ll get the usual blaming of remain voters, yet again.

It has seemed obvious to me for ages that it wouldn't happen. I was quite sure but you was warning me against continuing the search and moving my family to France

Remain voters blame leave voters. Leave voters blame remain voters. It happens all the time. How many times have you blamed leave voters for something yourself?

As I have said countless times before I blame Cameron and lying MP's. If Cameron didn't try to buy votes in the GE this wouldn't have happened. If they had told us the truth instead of scare stories and bullshit the odds are we would have voted remain.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

martcov said:
Google it. Educate yourself.

Come on Mart. You know the Nazis never said any such thing. You used it as a reason to have a go at Churchill. I don't need educating on WW2. When did the Nazis say they would try him as a war criminal? Everyone took their orders from Hitler. They were even too scared to wake him up on D Day. And they couldn't move tanks or troops to counter our landings. We got hours head start before he woke up.

Can you imagine Hitler calling Churchill a war criminal? Yes his empire is collapsing but he had time to do something that he wouldn't do.

Go on Mart. Show us all where the Nazis said they would try Churchill in court. You have based all your crap on this and wouldn't talk about anything else on the subject.

The reason I know so much is that when I was a kid I found out that Coventry was just like Stratford but bigger. Then I got my Grandad to talk to me about the war when he wouldn't talk to anybody about his experiences. My Nan was one of the rare women in the RAF.

You have chosen the wrong person to have tried to make out clueless on this subject. I hardly went to school until the last 18 months. But I still got 2 top grades. One was maths as I can count to 10. The other was History as I managed to have enough questions on WW2. You had to have 3 separate subjects through the years. There was 3 separate questions on WW2.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The new Labour proposals seem to be that the new vote would be legally binding and would prevent any re-runs. You've got to admit, it would make the instructions for MPs a whole lot simpler and more unambiguous. Brexiteers would surely rally behind May's deal over cancelling Brexit and if it remains the popular opinion, it will be voted through again.

I didn't say what difference it would make to May. I said about the difference it would make to the British public. Remainers are fully against May taking us out of the EU. Can you imagine the problems if we voted remain and the result was closer than last time? Or if we voted leave again but the result was closer than last time?

It would be close again. Only a fool would predict a win either way with certainty.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Dresden had no strategic importance and Germany was weeks from defeat. There was no point in razing it to the ground and just made rebuilding harder. As the Soviets found when they suddenly had to rebuild Berlin to working order

That could be said about a lot of things in the war. Just like you said that America did strategic bombing of Dresden. But they killed thousands that were trying to escape what had happened.

Dresden shouldn't have happened. But it was seen as a way of shortening the war. Atomic bombs shouldn't have been used. But they were seen as a way of shortening the war. We could sit here all day listing what shouldn't have happened.

Dresden happened just after the last German push. Nobody expected that one.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Yes another 10 years of cuts, conning the public and passing off Labour ideas as one's own

Is this something new?

The last Labour government passed off Tory ideas as their own.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

Captain Dart said:
The war on the Western front wasn't a walk over at this stage, the allies were still encountering resistance, they lost a battle in the Hurtgen Forest (near Aachen, barely across the border) in mid Feb and other parts of the advance were barely into Germany. They didn't clear the Germans out of the Rhur till mid April when over 300,000 Germans surrendered, after that there was virtually no resistance.

Many people seem to think that it was a walk in the park for us. Yes we had air superiority at this stage. But they don't know or choose to ignore that Hitler pulled his troops back to defend Germany. And anyone fit enough to hold a weapon whatever their age were then used. And anyone that defied Hitler......including his Generals.......were either killed or given the choice of killing themselves.

martcov · Feb 27, 2019

Astute said:
Come on Mart. You know the Nazis never said any such thing. You used it as a reason to have a go at Churchill. I don't need educating on WW2. When did the Nazis say they would try him as a war criminal? Everyone took their orders from Hitler. They were even too scared to wake him up on D Day. And they couldn't move tanks or troops to counter our landings. We got hours head start before he woke up.

Can you imagine Hitler calling Churchill a war criminal? Yes his empire is collapsing but he had time to do something that he wouldn't do.

Go on Mart. Show us all where the Nazis said they would try Churchill in court. You have based all your crap on this and wouldn't talk about anything else on the subject.

The reason I know so much is that when I was a kid I found out that Coventry was just like Stratford but bigger. Then I got my Grandad to talk to me about the war when he wouldn't talk to anybody about his experiences. My Nan was one of the rare women in the RAF.

You have chosen the wrong person to have tried to make out clueless on this subject. I hardly went to school until the last 18 months. But I still got 2 top grades. One was maths as I can count to 10. The other was History as I managed to have enough questions on WW2. You had to have 3 separate subjects through the years. There was 3 separate questions on WW2.

I didn’t use anything to have a go at. Churchill. Someone else brought that up by asking a hypothetical question. Yes the Nazis classed him as a war criminal because of the bombings.

That’s all from me. The rants and the long lists of false quotes about what I apparently said are all from you.

I have just brought a truck back from Munich and am knackered. Good night.

dutchman · Feb 27, 2019

Astute said:
Dresden happened just after the last German push. Nobody expected that one.

Last push in the West. They still planned to move 42 divisions to the Eastern Front to slow the Russian advance. The Russians specifically requested at Yalta that the Allies bomb Dresden and Berlin to disrupt any German reinforcements.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 27, 2019

Captain Dart said:
The war on the Western front wasn't a walk over at this stage, the allies were still encountering resistance, they lost a battle in the Hurtgen Forest (near Aachen, barely across the border) in mid Feb and other parts of the advance were barely into Germany. They didn't clear the Germans out of the Rhur till mid April when over 300,000 Germans surrendered, after that there was virtually no resistance.

It is a lot harder to take cities that are in ruins than those which are mostly intact. Which is what the Soviets found in Berlin and the Nazis found in Stalingrad.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 27, 2019

Astute said:
Is this something new?

The last Labour government passed off Tory ideas as their own.

Maybe. I just find it odd that the Tories call such ideas ‘hard left’ and then happily use them for themselves

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

dutchman said:
Last push in the West. They still planned to move 42 divisions to the Eastern Front to slow the Russian advance. The Russians specifically requested at Yalta that the Allies bomb Dresden and Berlin to disrupt any German reinforcements.

I mentioned it before. But it didn't count as only one thing counts. Churchill being a war criminal.

Stalin told Roosevelt and Churchill what he wanted. He wanted to take pressure off the Eastern front.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

martcov said:
I didn’t use anything to have a go at. Churchill. Someone else brought that up by asking a hypothetical question. Yes the Nazis classed him as a war criminal because of the bombings.

That’s all from me. The rants and the long lists of false quotes about what I apparently said are all from you.

I have just brought a truck back from Munich and am knackered. Good night.

You said that the Nazis said they would send him to court on the charge of being a war criminal several times. And that was your reason for only wanting to talk about Churchill.

So yet again where is the proof? Where is there any evidence?

Hitler was in full charge. Are you going to try and deny this now?

If Germany would have won the war Hitler would have been alive. If Hitler would have been dead before Dresden it wouldn't have happened. Germany would have surrendered.

Astute · Feb 27, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Maybe. I just find it odd that the Tories call such ideas ‘hard left’ and then happily use them for themselves

Nearly all politicians are liars. When are you going to learn?

martcov · Feb 27, 2019

Astute said:
You said that the Nazis said they would send him to court on the charge of being a war criminal several times. And that was your reason for only wanting to talk about Churchill.

So yet again where is the proof? Where is there any evidence?

Hitler was in full charge. Are you going to try and deny this now?

If Germany would have won the war Hitler would have been alive. If Hitler would have been dead before Dresden it wouldn't have happened. Germany would have surrendered.

Hitler was a Nazi.

Hitler was in charge.

Hitler classed Churchill as a war criminal. Also as a drunken demagogue.

The only reason I am involved in this is because I answered questions from other people.

As for the rest I have no idea what you are on about. I am not in a discussion with you.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (108 Viewers)

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