The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (58 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Politicians torn? All they want to do is go against what the people voted for but they don't want it to look as though they have gone against what the people voted for.

If we had another vote and remain won but it was close this time would you be happy for vote 3? If leave won again would you just let it happen or be like you are now?

And I say yet again this is my problem with another referendum. What would it actually solve? We are going to be tied to the EU at least. Parliament is making sure of this.

You do know it is possible and acceptable both to make a mistake and then admit to it? All the evidence points to Brexit being shit. The best Leave figures can argue now is that financial hardship will only be temporary.

If public opinion has turned against it why are we still going on with it? If it hasn’t, let’s crack on-after a vote to know one way or the other.

 

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[martcov]

Politicians torn? All they want to do is go against what the people voted for but they don't want it to look as though they have gone against what the people voted for.

If we had another vote and remain won but it was close this time would you be happy for vote 3? If leave won again would you just let it happen or be like you are now?

And I say yet again this is my problem with another referendum. What would it actually solve? We are going to be tied to the EU at least. Parliament is making sure of this.

Another referendum would be final, and with tougher laws than the advisory referendum where anything went and the fines were minimal compared with altering the direction of a country.

Even if it was close, it would be the last say on it for a few years. After all the controversy, no one would dare ask for a final final say. I wouldn’t.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There will be chaos whatever.

I think it would be closer if we had another referendum. Would you like to hear another leave result? Because it would be much harder to make any sort of deal that tied us to the EU if we had another leave result.

OK let’s pitch No Deal vs Remain. Leave the next day versus stay the next day

 

[martcov]

There will be chaos whatever.

I think it would be closer if we had another referendum. Would you like to hear another leave result? Because it would be much harder to make any sort of deal that tied us to the EU if we had another leave result.

If we had another leave result there would have to be a supplementary leave question, no deal or close relationship. The leavers would have to agree what leave is before any new negotiations. That was a mistake last time. To trigger it without clarifying what sort of deal we should go for. May had no mandate for her red lines. Only asked for approval having agreed her deal with the EU.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If we had another leave result there would have to be a supplementary leave question, no deal or close relationship. The leavers would have to agree what leave is before any new negotiations. That was a mistake last time. To trigger it without clarifying what sort of deal we should go for. May had no mandate for her red lines. Only asked for approval having agreed her deal with the EU.

Disagree put the most popular Leave option up on its own. If everyone loves it as we keep getting told it will still win

 

[tisza]

Why do you think anyone actually wants the country to suffer whatever happens? The whole deadlock in Parliament is a result of politicians torn between a 52-48 vote 3 years ago and every analysis going showing that we will be worse off than staying.

Call another referendum. If it is still the will of the people to leave like this it will happen

Another leave would have to be the No Deal option.
Can't just put "Leave or remain" anymore as it's obvious a Leave vote on its own means nothing.
parliament clearly unable to reach consensus even if the vote was Leave.
Parliament still haven't been able to find a majority for a 2nd referendum.
More time isn't going to get them anywhere. There isn't the wriggle room either in parliament or in the EU.
May steps down and a firmer Brexiteer could well be new PM and so takes us further away from a likely settlement. (Despite the inevitable BS in their 1st speech about need for national unity etc. and for a fresh approach from us and EU)

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

OK let’s pitch No Deal vs Remain. Leave the next day versus stay the next day

We can’t though and I suspect you know this. The planning and changes required are huge in every area of our society

 

[martcov]

The same TR who complained his human rights were breached by not having a TV in prison and who claims you can’t say anything bad about Muslims yet curiously has never been arrested for hate speech

The speech he is making now is incitement. I switched it off, but his fans are clapping.

 

[Ashdown]

Just listened to him screaming about poor victim Trump. Making his paymasters happy. And pointing out poor victim white people being falsely accused of racism in the media. Screaming like the Nazi that he is. Making angry people angrier. Bannon will have a hard on.

Obsessed, you ought to see someone.

 

[martcov]

Disagree put the most popular Leave option up on its own. If everyone loves it as we keep getting told it will still win

I meant remain v leave as first option, and if leave wind, a second question with the no deal option for the hard core leavers. Otherwise they will say they didn’t get a choice of how to leave.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Obsessed, you ought to see someone.

He needs to be arrested

 

[martcov]

Obsessed, you ought to see someone.

Obsessed about what? You keep mentioning my brother. Maybe I should introduce you via Skype. You’d get on great.

 

[martcov]

He needs to be arrested

Me or Tommy?

 

[Ian1779]

Surely we are due a meaningless statement from Theresa at some point this evening....

 

[Astute]

You do know it is possible and acceptable both to make a mistake and then admit to it? All the evidence points to Brexit being shit. The best Leave figures can argue now is that financial hardship will only be temporary.

If public opinion has turned against it why are we still going on with it? If it hasn’t, let’s crack on-after a vote to know one way or the other.

But as I said would you be happy with a no deal exit?

You talk as though the nation knows it made a mistake last time. If you only listen to those who shout the loudest that is the idea that is given.

Those that I know who want remain are very vocal. But I hardly know anyone who voted leave and has changed their mind. And I am not talking about those who are poor and can't afford to travel. I don't agree with what they say but they have their points to make. And they will get very vocal if they don't get what they voted for.

 

[Astute]

Another referendum would be final, and with tougher laws than the advisory referendum where anything went and the fines were minimal compared with altering the direction of a country.

Even if it was close, it would be the last say on it for a few years. After all the controversy, no one would dare ask for a final final say. I wouldn’t.

So if it was leave again you would want another referendum in a few years?

If it was remain would you want it to be THE final say?

If not then you want it to continue for a lot of years. In, out, shake it all about.

 

[Astute]

OK let’s pitch No Deal vs Remain. Leave the next day versus stay the next day

And if it came back as leave without a deal?

Leave without a deal to get it over with has had the highest agree with in polls. I wouldn't be happy with it.

 

[Astute]

If we had another leave result there would have to be a supplementary leave question, no deal or close relationship. The leavers would have to agree what leave is before any new negotiations. That was a mistake last time. To trigger it without clarifying what sort of deal we should go for. May had no mandate for her red lines. Only asked for approval having agreed her deal with the EU.

So leave or not leave.

But if it is leave can we have close ties with the EU so it is only leaving in name? Exactly what we are heading for. So you want to risk it all in the hope of a remain vote?

 

[Astute]

We can’t though and I suspect you know this. The planning and changes required are huge in every area of our society

Why not?

It would be the best way of getting a remain vote. And it would also get rid of the comments about people not knowing what they voted for. And parliament would have to follow the wishes of the people and wouldn't have wriggle room to ignore the people again.

But you wouldn't want that. You would want parliament to go against the vote again. So we would be in exactly the same position again.

 

[martcov]

So if it was leave again you would want another referendum in a few years?

If it was remain would you want it to be THE final say?

If not then you want it to continue for a lot of years. In, out, shake it all about.

Don’t you read posts? What part of final don’t you understand?

 

[Astute]

Surely we are due a meaningless statement from Theresa at some point this evening....

Go forward in a different way. Have votes on which way we should go forward. Get something sorted before the European elections.

Blah blah blah. Can see it already.

 

[Astute]

Are you disagreeing with yourself now?

Another referendum would be final, and with tougher laws than the advisory referendum where anything went and the fines were minimal compared with altering the direction of a country.

Even if it was close, it would be the last say on it for a few years. After all the controversy, no one would dare ask for a final final say. I wouldn’t.

Don’t you read posts? What part of final don’t you understand?

 

[martcov]

Are you disagreeing with yourself now?

Last say on it.. I say for a few years, because whatever way it goes, we cannot see into the future. But, for the next few years at least, we could get on with our lives. Final is as final as you can say without a crystal ball.

 

[Ian1779]

Go forward in a different way. Have votes on which way we should go forward. Get something sorted before the European elections.

Blah blah blah. Can see it already.

‘I’ve seen the problem... I’ve written the withdrawal agreement in the wrong font. I look forward to resubmitting it to this House in Comic Sans to ensure a clear mandate with which to move forward’

 

[Astute]

Last say on it.. I say for a few years, because whatever way it goes, we cannot see into the future. But, for the next few years at least, we could get on with our lives. Final is as final as you can say without a crystal ball.

So you agree with my comment but make out that you disagree with my comment.

You say you wouldn't want it to be THE final say on the matter yet you ask me if I understand what final say means.

Then you say it is your last say on the matter :smuggrin:

As I have constantly said there is nothing wrong in admitting a mistake. But making out that I am wrong when everyone can clearly see what you have said pisses me off.

Do you want it to be THE final say or not? And if you don't want it to be THE final say do you have to ask if I understand what final say means?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Last say on it.. I say for a few years, because whatever way it goes, we cannot see into the future. But, for the next few years at least, we could get on with our lives. Final is as final as you can say without a crystal ball.

Hahaha. Nice quote. You're turning into a parody of yourself once again. Medication wearing off ?

 

[Astute]

‘I’ve seen the problem... I’ve written the withdrawal agreement in the wrong font. I look forward to resubmitting it to this House in Comic Sans to ensure a clear mandate with which to move forward’

Just found this. Will try and cut the normal crap.out.


The prime minister said the UK would have to find "an alternative way forward", which was "almost certain" to involve holding European elections.

Responding to the vote, European Council President Donald Tusk tweeted: "In view of the rejection of the Withdrawal Agreement by the House of Commons, I have decided to call a European Council on 10 April." In a statement, the European Commission said the UK would have to "indicate a way forward" by 12 April "

MPs are set to have another go at reaching a Brexit compromise in another series of votes on Monday and Wednesday next week. If one of the options receives a majority, the government could use it as a basis for negotiating changes to the political declaration.

 

[martcov]

Hahaha. Nice quote. You're turning into a parody of yourself once again. Medication wearing off ?

No, I was trying to explain that final is final is far as we know. No other referendum foreseen. Not planned. Not on the agenda.

More than than that we can’t say. Some people like you have difficulties with basic comprehension. Back to your mocking stupidity I see.

 

[martcov]

So you agree with my comment but make out that you disagree with my comment.

You say you wouldn't want it to be THE final say on the matter yet you ask me if I understand what final say means.

Then you say it is your last say on the matter :smuggrin:

As I have constantly said there is nothing wrong in admitting a mistake. But making out that I am wrong when everyone can clearly see what you have said pisses me off.

Do you want it to be THE final say or not? And if you don't want it to be THE final say do you have to ask if I understand what final say means?

A misunderstanding. Simple. I say final. I mean that, but in a few years someone may come along and say no let’s do it again. I admit I didn’t make it 100% clear, but the intention was to have a final say as far as we can say. Not another referendum next year, or because the people voted leave.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Don’t equate O‘Brien with Farage.

At least O‘Brien has people who know what they are talking about on his program. Farage doesn’t. He just gets people echoing himself. Sometimes his callers are incredibly stupid, and he has to be very careful that he doesn’t upset them as they are absolute fans of him.

My point is they’re at the extreme ends of the argument and don’t want to listen or accept anyone’s point of view from the opposite side of the argument

That is why they are the problem not part of the potential solution. O’Brien’s condescending, all voters who voted out are thick or were conned approach, only leads to further division. Why not accept some of the reasons why people voted that way and address their concerns ? His attitude and that of many of the political class is why we are in this mess in the first place !

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Why not?

It would be the best way of getting a remain vote. And it would also get rid of the comments about people not knowing what they voted for. And parliament would have to follow the wishes of the people and wouldn't have wriggle room to ignore the people again.

But you wouldn't want that. You would want parliament to go against the vote again. So we would be in exactly the same position again.

I was responding to leaving without a deal

I can’t see anything other than a no deal at 12/4 or an extension to article 50

 

[CCFCSteve]

Can someone explain to me why labours position is to vote down the withdrawal agreement as they want a customs union, yet one of the options to be negotiated during the transition period could be a customs union ? I’d imagine to ensure the backstop could be exited quickly this is a highly likely solution but why tie our hands before the negotiations even start ?

The whole thing is a farce. Too many people with too entrenched views not willing to budge

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Can someone explain to me why labours position is to vote down the withdrawal agreement as they want a customs union, yet one of the options to be negotiated during the transition period could be a customs union ? I’d imagine to ensure the backstop could be exited quickly this is a highly likely solution but why tie our hands before the negotiations even start ?

The whole thing is a farce. Too many people with too entrenched views not willing to budge

Representative democracy. It’s their job

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Meanwhile the demographics of the brexit march are interesting. White male and Over 50 mainly

 

[Astute]

A misunderstanding. Simple. I say final. I mean that, but in a few years someone may come along and say no let’s do it again. I admit I didn’t make it 100% clear, but the intention was to have a final say as far as we can say. Not another referendum next year, or because the people voted leave.

Thanks for clarifying.

At least you can still agree with what I have been saying. Another referendum isn't going to settle things. There are still going to be millions unhappy whatever. And then it will still be to parliament to sort out the details. And who trusts them to be able to solve anything?