The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Can't help with costings...but the faceless beaurocrats I am on about are those in & around the MEPS - bribing, bullying & cajoling them to do what the EU mandarins want

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Yeah? I’m not sure you totally understand what a bureaucrat is and their roll within the EU.

 

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[Astute]

You don't half talk a load of shite at times. Germany isn't like the UK having sold off most of its prestige companies, it doesn't need investment from multinational external companies, it has plenty of its own.

And you don't half chat shite when you want to defend your buddies on here.

The subject is on the Forbes ratings on investment being brought into countries around the world. Try looking back. It wasn't me bringing up Germany. But at least you get some buddy points.

 

[Astute]

That it is about investment and not specifically about how the economy is doing. Which is why USA was 23. and is now only 11. although it is a strong economy.

Having less regulations and a labour Force with a lot of educated people counts for a lot in this report. Germany has more regulations which means they set higher standards for e.g. environment, employees rights, more control of the gig economy and no zero hours contracts. Might be good for employees and consumers, but considered restrictive for those investing short term.

New Zealand is not in our league as an economy, but because of privatisation of virtually everything it is good for investors. Some people might not think that privatisation is the best way of judging a country.

1+1=3?

Investment brings in jobs. Jobs are a massive part of the economy. But the good news isn't what many seem to want to hear.

 

[Astute]

Seem to remember reading somewhere that brexit is going to create an estimated 8000 civil servent posts, or bureaucrats if you prefer. The EU employs about five times that for the whole of the EU which is of course a shared cost.

Shared cost?

How many billions do we put in? How many countries take out?

 

[Astute]

They don’t care about what people are supposed to be investing in. Their report isn’t an answer to a specific situation. It is a list of countries which they consider good for a punt by investors. It is neutral, as you say, from a political angle. It is taken only from an investors point of view. Good for investors isn’t the main criterium for judging a country‘s economic performance, or the wellbeing of it‘s citizens. People investing isn’t negative. The reasons why could be negative for the working man though.

So the many thousands of jobs being created means nothing to the man on the street? The massive amount of tax that will be paid doesn't make a difference either?

 

[Astute]

25th December. 24 hours. Please can we have an amnesty on this thread for just one day?

I'll take the day off being ashamed of my vote, and the remainers can have a day off being called snowflakes.

24 hours of looking what could be good for the UK instead of always looking at what 'will' go wrong would be nice.

 

[clint van damme]

24 hours of looking what could be good for the UK instead of always looking at what 'will' go wrong would be nice.

so you want people to be positive even if they believe there is nothing to be positive about just because you are?
If blind optimism despite your better judgement actually achieved anything I'd be sitting at home now watching a rerun of one of Citys Champions League victories.

 

[skybluetony176]

Shared cost?

How many billions do we put in? How many countries take out?

Yes. Shared. We didn’t pay it all. That’s the definition of shared.

In 2016 I believe our total contribution was £13.1B. That made us the third biggest contributor behind Germany and France IIRC. Not sure what that equates to as a percentage of the total EU budget but it will certainly be far south of 30%.

All member states take out. Didn’t realise that you weren’t aware of that. We took out something like £4.5B our ourselves.

 

[skybluetony176]

So the many thousands of jobs being created means nothing to the man on the street? The massive amount of tax that will be paid doesn't make a difference either?

Many thousands? We’ll have to open the floodgates to migrants otherwise we’ll never fill them.

 

[martcov]

Shared cost?

How many billions do we put in? How many countries take out?

How many take out is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether we do well out of it. The billions have to be measured against costs incurred by not being in and possible trading disadvantages.

We were doing well.

 

[martcov]

1+1=3?

Investment brings in jobs. Jobs are a massive part of the economy. But the good news isn't what many seem to want to hear.

In an unregulated privatised economy there will be many new jobs. But, how many will be low paid, who is checking on minimum wage, or gig jobs or zero hours? Jobs = good, but Forbes was looking at it purely from an investors point of view.

 

[Sick Boy]

And you don't half chat shite when you want to defend your buddies on here.

The subject is on the Forbes ratings on investment being brought into countries around the world. Try looking back. It wasn't me bringing up Germany. But at least you get some buddy points.

If I'm not mistaken FP voted leave. He isn't defending anyone or point scoring, just calling you out. Again.

 

[Sick Boy]

25th December. 24 hours. Please can we have an amnesty on this thread for just one day?

I'll take the day off being ashamed of my vote, and the remainers can have a day off being called snowflakes.

I've got a feeling that this thread will rumble on for years yet.

 

[Grappa]

Anyone know about The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia by Aleksandr Dugin? Some of the ideas in it are pretty startling in light of the current political state of play. Just some of Dugin's suggestions:

US: Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".
Aim to cause:
Distrust in the police.
Distrust in the government.
Distrust in the media.
Distrust in all institutions of American life.
Distrust in politicians and representatives (one of the basis of a representative republic) to the point where voters want people who have NEVER won an election in charge.
Break the public's mind in being able to discern truth from fiction. Break their bullshit detector.
Spread conspiracy theories all over using HD-streamed Russian channels.
Infiltrate social media sites, even at one point having the whole front page of reddit filled with RussiaToday.
Normalize and popularize fringe ideas through memetics.

Turkey: Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities

Iran: Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis"

UK: "United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe."

 

[dancers lance]

Anyone know about The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia by Aleksandr Dugin? Some of the ideas in it are pretty startling in light of the current political state of play. Just some of Dugin's suggestions:

US: Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".
Aim to cause:
Distrust in the police.
Distrust in the government.
Distrust in the media.
Distrust in all institutions of American life.
Distrust in politicians and representatives (one of the basis of a representative republic) to the point where voters want people who have NEVER won an election in charge.
Break the public's mind in being able to discern truth from fiction. Break their bullshit detector.
Spread conspiracy theories all over using HD-streamed Russian channels.
Infiltrate social media sites, even at one point having the whole front page of reddit filled with RussiaToday.
Normalize and popularize fringe ideas through memetics.

Turkey: Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities

Iran: Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis"

UK: "United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe."

This is a price I'm willing to pay if it means I can buy vodka and Matryoshka dolls on the cheap.

 

[wingy]

Anyone know about The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia by Aleksandr Dugin? Some of the ideas in it are pretty startling in light of the current political state of play. Just some of Dugin's suggestions:

US: Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".
Aim to cause:
Distrust in the police.
Distrust in the government.
Distrust in the media.
Distrust in all institutions of American life.
Distrust in politicians and representatives (one of the basis of a representative republic) to the point where voters want people who have NEVER won an election in charge.
Break the public's mind in being able to discern truth from fiction. Break their bullshit detector.
Spread conspiracy theories all over using HD-streamed Russian channels.
Infiltrate social media sites, even at one point having the whole front page of reddit filled with RussiaToday.
Normalize and popularize fringe ideas through memetics.

Turkey: Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities

Iran: Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis"

UK: "United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe."

Pbsycbological warfare If you like.

 

[clint van damme]

This is pretty good. I haven't had chance to find someone with a counter view point yet as I don't know a great deal about economics so he could be talking shite but it all sounds plausible to me.
He's Scottish but based in the States so a lot of it applies to the USA but I think it's relevant to what's going on here:

 

[Kingokings204]

is it Catalonia next for independence?

Don’t they want to leave the EU also?

 

[martcov]

is it Catalonia next for independence?

Don’t they want to leave the EU also?

Next? Maybe they will become independent. Let’s see if that has an effect on Northern Ireland if they do. The votes are about even, but the three independence parties get more seats. They don’t get on with each other though, so they are going to have to sort their differences out.

The EU has said they won’t recognise Catalonia without Spain‘s agreement. I wasn’t aware that this was a vote on EU membership, although the smallest party are anti EU.

Another close election is bad for everyone involved. No one has a strong mandate.

Can only end in tears.

 

[martcov]

EU Statement:

The European Commission says that its stance towards Catalonia remains the same.

The executive arm of the EU has previously stated that events in Catalonia are an internal issue for Spain.

"Our position on the question of Catalonia is well known and has been regularly restated, at all levels. It will not change," commission spokesman Alexander Winterstein told AFP news agency.

"In relation to a regional election, we have no comment to make," he added

 

[Kingokings204]

Next? Maybe they will become independent. Let’s see if that has an effect on Northern Ireland if they do. The votes are about even, but the three independence parties get more seats. They don’t get on with each other though, so they are going to have to sort their differences out.

The EU has said they won’t recognise Catalonia without Spain‘s agreement. I wasn’t aware that this was a vote on EU membership, although the smallest party are anti EU.

Another close election is bad for everyone involved. No one has a strong mandate.

Can only end in tears.

It was 70-68 to indepedance parties but what that means no one knows yet. Maybe even their leader Carlos pudogiament will be allowed back into the country now? What a joke.

Surely they have to press ahead with indepedence else what was the point to the election?

 

[martcov]

It was 70-68 to indepedance parties but what that means no one knows yet. Maybe even their leader Carlos pudogiament will be allowed back into the country now? What a joke.

Surely they have to press ahead with indepedence else what was the point to the election?

It’s not a joke that he had to flee. He held an illegal referendum.

The point of the vote is that Spain wanted clarity and hoped that the people that boycotted the illegal referendum would vote for a government wanting a union with Spain. Now we have the next Brexit type situation where there is no clear mandate. Even more unclear than the UK because the parties in favour of independence don’t like each other and the biggest party is unionist. The Independence parties’ majority has been cut.

The problem has not been solved either way.

You of course are happy that we have another divided nation.

 

[Astute]

All member states take out. Didn’t realise that you weren’t aware of that. We took out something like £4.5B our ourselves.

You make it sound like we got about half of it back.

The Tories have done well out of the EU. The landed gentry have done the best. They have got millions for having land passed down to them. I know why Tories want to stay in.

So how much goes back to the tax payer?

 

[martcov]

You make it sound like we got about half of it back.

The Tories have done well out of the EU. The landed gentry have done the best. They have got millions for having land passed down to them. I know why Tories want to stay in.

So how much goes back to the tax payer?

We have all done well out of the EU. We are leaving to take back sovereignty, get rid of migrants and have blue passports, not because the economy was not doing well.

 

[Sick Boy]

In his post truth world the Tories are also the face of remain.

 

[Astute]

so you want people to be positive even if they believe there is nothing to be positive about just because you are?
If blind optimism despite your better judgement actually achieved anything I'd be sitting at home now watching a rerun of one of Citys Champions League victories.

Blind optimism?

Much better than blind pessimism. But I am not blind to what can go wrong. Strangely enough some only notice my optimism. And they are those who only see pessimism.

 

[Astute]

In his post truth world the Tories are also the face of remain.

Yeah. Tories voted remain. Labour voted remain. 5% of UKIP voted remain. I blame the 95% of them for us leaving.

 

[clint van damme]

Blind optimism?

Much better than blind pessimism. But I am not blind to what can go wrong. Strangely enough some only notice my optimism. And they are those who only see pessimism.

I never said you had blind optimism. You have a habit of reading things that aren't actually said.

You have read what's going on and in particular the Forbes article and concluded that there is the potential for a brighter outlook next year.
I haven't come to the same conclusion so for me to be optimistic would be blind optimism. Just my opinion, one of us will be wrong and I'm quite happy to accept it could be me.

 

[Astute]

We have all done well out of the EU. We are leaving to take back sovereignty, get rid of migrants and have blue passports, not because the economy was not doing well.

Yet in the real world......

 

[Sick Boy]

Yet in the real world......

Only yesterday you were going on about hoe strong our economy is.

 

[Astute]

I never said you had blind optimism. You have a habit of reading things that aren't actually said.

You have read what's going on and in particular the Forbes article and concluded that there is the potential for a brighter outlook next year.
I haven't come to the same conclusion so for me to be optimistic would be blind optimism. Just my opinion, one of us will be wrong and I'm quite happy to accept it could be me.

Blind optimism is seeing something that isn't there. Blind pessimism is not seeing something that is there.

Forbes are a lot more respected than most mentioned on here. Yet YouGov and their numbers that are constantly wrong are taken as gospel.

 

[clint van damme]

Blind optimism is seeing something that isn't there. Blind pessimism is not seeing something that is there.

Forbes are a lot more respected than most mentioned on here. Yet YouGov and their numbers that are constantly wrong are taken as gospel.

You're doing it again, I never used Yougov as a source.
Like I say, you drew your conclusions and I drew mine.

 

[Astute]

If I'm not mistaken FP voted leave. He isn't defending anyone or point scoring, just calling you out. Again.

Calling me out for what?

He constantly does it even when he agrees with me. Work that one out.

 

[Astute]

You're doing it again, I never used Yougov as a source.
Like I say, you drew your conclusions and I drew mine.

But where did I say it was you?

 

[Astute]

Only yesterday you were going on about hoe strong our economy is.

Considering we were told that if we voted leave house prices would plummet, unemployment would soar and share prices would drop we are doing well. But we could always do better.