dutchman
Well-Known Member
Well yes he would say that wouldn't he? (Whether it was true or not). It's called 'negotiating'.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (78 Viewers)
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Well yes he would say that wouldn't he? (Whether it was true or not). It's called 'negotiating'.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
How is that negotiating?
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Yep I agree, can see it passing as people would prefer A deal compared to no deal
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I just can't see the hardline Brexiteers getting behind it and a majority of Labour MPs are unlikely to vote it through either.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
Red Lines
"red lines relate to the boundary of diplomacy and sanction behaviour. But they are also a useful feature of negotiating strategy. Don't confuse them with 'bottom lines', or 'must avoid' positions, which describe walk away positions. Normally a negotiator will not reveal his bottom line position to the counterparty because revelation can change the perception of the balance of power. If buyers know that the bottom line for a seller is a discount of x%, and no more, then their power to get that discount is increased. Similarly, if they know that the seller 'must avoid' losing the order, their position is strengthened."
(I'd have thought Martcov knew all this already, being the travelling super entrepreneur and economics expert he is, but apparently not.)
Astute
Well-Known Member
It doesn't need all of them to do it. And there are plenty of Labour MP's who want Brexit to happen.
You have said yourself how bad a hard Brexit could be. Are you saying that you would vote for a hard Brexit?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
there are plenty that would and will.
I think the Labour vote will be key. She'll never get the DUP or the hardliners in her own party to support it.
I think there are a few Labour MPs who will say they won't support it but will. Obviously there are plenty of hard line Brexiteers in Labour as well.
Cov City Daytrader 87
Well-Known Member
An article from Matthew Goodwin entitled: 'Britain's Populist Revolt'.
Btw if you don't want to read the article, you can listen to the audio version of it by scrolling down to the bottom of the article.
Britain's Populist Revolt - Quillette
Btw if you don't want to read the article, you can listen to the audio version of it by scrolling down to the bottom of the article.
Britain's Populist Revolt - Quillette
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
That isn't what he is doing? He offered other solutions after that message.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
That’s one way of twisting someone’s words.
There was a calculator online recently that highlighted just how much the odds are stacked against getting it through parliament.
Astute
Well-Known Member
How is that twisting words? What have you said about a hard Brexit?
Yes the odds are against it going through parliament. But that doesn't mean it won't go through parliament.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Parliament can vote to extend or even revoke article 50 so voting down May’s deal doesn’t automatically mean no deal.
Astute
Well-Known Member
If the vote goes against May there could be a second vote to try and get it through
May not ruling out second MPs' Brexit vote
May not ruling out second MPs' Brexit vote
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I’m sure those against the EU having votes until it gets the right answer won’t be happy with that
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
They took away our passport. When will the cruelty end.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Conversely how has it had any positive impact?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
That’s a no then.
Freedom to live and work in an EEA country, cheaper phone calls, free access to health services in an EEA country.
So how has the EU negatively impacted your day-to-day life?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The freedom to indulge in my weakness for Mediterranean women has led to several premature greys
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Once the Lisbon treaty its had a diminution of political power within the country.
The country pays significantly more into the Eu than it gets out and it supports projects in Eu states which no one can have an influence on
Freedom of movement when you are a major provider into the movement cannot by definition be positive. I’d suggest many people in certain communities have been impacted negatively by this - I haven’t
The political integration and economic control is increasing. We are often told devolution of power is a positive but the EU is the antithesis of this - surely if devolution is good then the EU is bad
If you believe in socialism it’s whole doctrine is repulsive to your ideological beliefs
It is non Democratic in its decision making
It is morally bankrupt. It holds poverty stricken members to ransom and directly controls their budgets and fiscal policies
It has limits on fiscal control by individual states
Your question is too simplistic. If you’d ask a teenager in the Soviet Union the same regarding the USSR influence what could they say as they’d have not known a difference.
It’s intersting Isn’t it that cabinet minutes were suppressed by the Wilson government and also the Heath government when the decisions to join and then if to remain in the EEC were discussed as they revealed intent far beyond free trade.
If political and fiscal union was so wonderful why - even then - were people lied to and deceived.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The EEA costs the government a fortune - its a burden to the taxpayer
Oddly I work with several non EEA people who if they wish can remain here permanently after 5 years
Cheaper phone calls than cost a net £8 - £13 billion a year depending who you believe
Yes I’ve changed my mind
I know I will not change anybody's mind here. But if you can't actually come up with an example of how your daily life is negatively impacted then thanks for your input and I'll just wait for someone who has a more concrete example.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The point is your question is absurd
90% of people were not impacted negatively by the 2008 recession - it doesn’t mean the recession was a good idea does it. I haven’t been impacted by any of the 3 recessions I’ve worked through
Also you can’t actually know if you’ve been negatively impacted without knowing the alternative. I’m sure many North Koreans would agree with you as they don’t know an alternative.
So it’s not the negative but the potential positives that should be discussed.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
Cheaper roaming charges only benefit those who are able to make use of them, the cost to the networks is passed on to everyone else. The same goes for every other supposed 'benefit'.
I think 'absurd' is a bit strong tbh. My point is that most of the arguments are regurgitations of the opposing sides' soundbites. It's become a tribal issue. 'Typical lefties v racists'. My assumption is that a lot of this stems from the media rather than from what people actually experience, so I'm looking for some anecdotes to back up the media presentation of the negative impact of the EU.
Is that a negative day-to-day impact for you? Maybe you've misread the question.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
In what way? Can you Express it in financial or maybe rational terms? And, how long are you staying temporarily in the UK?
Yeah you not taking advantage of cheaper roaming charges is absolutely a very strong example of the negative effects of the EU. But you're the guy who's taken advantage of the welcoming and tolerant nature of the British people for 60 years but now want to stop other europeans coming here so I'll take what you say with a pinch of salt.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
A massive oversupply of non skilled Labour from Eastern Europe has directly lowered my wage in the fitness industry and also my friends who are builders who have to now compete with them who can do the same job for half the price because they don’t have the same outgoings. Lower wages have massively hurt me.
We pay a net 10 billion pounds of taxpayers money. That 10 billion could be spent here in my opinion. Other countries don’t have that financial burden.
Fruit and food in general is a lot more expensive because of the EU customs union being protectionist. The EU directly apply tariffs to fruit for example from outside the EU to protect EU fruit producers keeping the prices artificially high. I know a few pence isn’t massive but it’s the point and soon adds up. It’s a big reason why Tim Martin of weatherspoons wants to just leave. This also applies to a lot of products.
I could go on but I’ve made my point and I hope sincerely you understand my points. Happy to debate them.
Thanks for the response. How much have your wages decreased by? And how? Are you self-employed? I don't know much about the fitness industry so would appreciate a bit of info on how it works.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
My phone bill gets cheaper and cheaper with each new contract, I get more and more text and minutes to the point both are now unlimited, data usage increases year on year and I get a new phone each year and each year it’s an upgrade. If the cost is being past on to the rest of us I have to say I’m not feeling it.
Compare that to my family in Northern Ireland who live on the border with the south. If they have their phone in their pockets and go for a piss their phone can roam without leaving the house so I’m not sure how they qualify from being able to make use of it. Roaming is unavoidable for them just going about their daily business. True for millions across the EU I would imagine as phone signals don’t tend to stop at the border.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Ok. I'll give you an example. The mandatory contracting out of public services driven by the public contracts directive, it has led to widespread privatisation and decline in wages and conditions.