The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (179 Viewers)

[martcov]

Your user name is very apt with this post.

So half the population didn't know what they voted for yet the other half.....the half you so desperately want... ..knew exactly what they were voting for?

That could be used as a throwaway comment by both sides.

Everybody knows that reform in the EU is desperately needed. But reforms in the EU won't happen to the benefit to those in the EU. They break their own rules, regulations and laws to keep it going. When caught out they say they did nothing wrong after an enquiry. Then after another enquiry they admit the charge. But they refused to do anything. Then there is a cote with the members of the EU. Only 12 out of over 500 say it should be reversed. Nothing happens.

So what makes you think there will ever be reform in the way needed? All the leaders of the countries in the EU say reform is needed. It isn't a surprise that reform is needed. But those who run the EU only give top jobs to those who want to continue the status quo.

Did those who voted remain vote for this? If not did they vote remain not knowing what they voted for?

Ah yes I hear I am a leaver because I can see the argument on both sides. But comments like those you have made cause damage between the two sides. 'You voted leave so you didn't have a clue what you voted for' becomes someone calling them thick as they didn't vote what someone else wanted.

My whole family is moving to France next month. Could someone try to explain why I am such a staunch leaver when we are moving to an EU country?

I have no idea why you keep on and on about Selmayr and saying that the EU is blocking reform wanted by governments. Selmayr is irrelevant in the big picture. No one is discussing Selmayr. No election campaign was about Selmayr.

The EU is not a separate state ruled by unelected old men. You should have twigged that at least with the success of the BXP at the EU elections.

The reason why some reforms are blocked is because all countries don’t want the same reforms. Macron wants reform. The Germans want reform. But different reforms. Most countries want to stop a race to the bottom in tax rates, but Ireland, Netherlands, Luxemburg can use their veto to block tax reform as the EU is not a fiscal union. Macron is for a fiscal union with a EU finance minister, but cannot get the others to waive their vetos. It is individual countries that are blocking major reforms not the EU. The EU is not a state it is a Union.

 

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[Ashdown]

Even if it was true the leave campaign campaigned on the EU being a protectionist society so it should hardly be a surprise. #fauxanger

Except they protected us from nothing, The Chinese and US to an extent have roved around our markets at will and stole, cheated and copied our products and supplied us cheap throw away shit for years, destroying our manufacturing as they went. No protection there at all .

 

[djr8369]

Except they protected us from nothing, The Chinese and US to an extent have roved around our markets at will and stole, cheated and copied our products and supplied us cheap throw away shit for years, destroying our manufacturing as they went. No protection there at all .

This is not what protectionist means.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[martcov]

Except they protected us from nothing, The Chinese and US to an extent have roved around our markets at will and stole, cheated and copied our products and supplied us cheap throw away shit for years, destroying our manufacturing as they went. No protection there at all .

If you think that’s bad, you won’t like trading on WTO terms.

 

[Grendel]

Of course they'd be campaigning for another vote. Scottish independence vote just two years before Brexit back in the news again and has never really gone away. That was 55-45 for Remain. Do you reckon if they next voted to be independent 51-49 Sturgeon and the like would be saying it wasn't a conclusive result or a clear indication of the will of the people. Like fuck she would. She'd be saying "a majority voted independence so independence is what we're doing"

Strange how these non Bexiteers want a hard border and WTO terms with England and no currency

 

[Grendel]

If you think that’s bad, you won’t like trading on WTO terms.

Scotland think it’s ok

 

[martcov]

Strange how these non Bexiteers want a hard border and WTO terms with England and no currency

Actually they didn’t want this. They voted to stay in the UK as a part of the EU. Basically English nationalists decided to move the goal posts. Now the SNP want to stay in the EU which will necessitate a hard border unless the rest of disunited Kingdom remains in the CU and SM.

 

[martcov]

Scotland think it’s ok

No, it doesn’t. It thinks leaving the EU is a stupid idea.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

No, it doesn’t. It thinks leaving the EU is a stupid idea.

Leaving the EU will be the best thing for us, why are you so afraid of us becoming independent
Just accept the result and stop spitting your dummy out

 

[Grendel]

Actually they didn’t want this. They voted to stay in the UK as a part of the EU. Basically English nationalists decided to move the goal posts. Now the SNP want to stay in the EU which will necessitate a hard border unless the rest of disunited Kingdom remains in the CU and SM.

So a hard border with the biggest trading area is now not a problem? Blimey. Sturgeon also claims that they do not have to sign up to an agreement to take the Euro

You are wrong as she actually is desperate for us to leave so she can continue with her project of independence and ruination
M

 

[martcov]

Leaving the EU will be the best thing for us, why are you so afraid of us becoming independent
Just accept the result and stop spitting your dummy out

Because we are already independent. There is no need to leave. It will be to our disadvantage. A single country has less say than a group of 28 countries and has less bargaining power - as has already become evident by the so called roll over deals not happening. Now Farage is talking about BXP joining the extreme right. Who wants fascism? You have given him Carte Blanche by voting for a party without a manifesto.

 

[martcov]

So a hard border with the biggest trading area is now not a problem? Blimey. Sturgeon also claims that they do not have to sign up to an agreement to take the Euro

You are wrong as she actually is desperate for us to leave so she can continue with her project of independence and ruination
M

She maybe, but SNP lost the indie vote. All Brexit‘s fault that it’s up for grabs now.

 

[Grendel]

She maybe, but SNP lost the indie vote. All Brexit‘s fault that it’s up for grabs now.

Nope she needs any excuse like Farage to continue with her single agenda

 

[SBAndy]

I have no idea why you keep on and on about Selmayr and saying that the EU is blocking reform wanted by governments. Selmayr is irrelevant in the big picture. No one is discussing Selmayr. No election campaign was about Selmayr.

The EU is not a separate state ruled by unelected old men. You should have twigged that at least with the success of the BXP at the EU elections.

The reason why some reforms are blocked is because all countries don’t want the same reforms. Macron wants reform. The Germans want reform. But different reforms. Most countries want to stop a race to the bottom in tax rates, but Ireland, Netherlands, Luxemburg can use their veto to block tax reform as the EU is not a fiscal union. Macron is for a fiscal union with a EU finance minister, but cannot get the others to waive their vetos. It is individual countries that are blocking major reforms not the EU. The EU is not a state it is a Union.

The issue isn’t Selmayr as such, but that situation is all of the uncertainty around the EU in microcosm. They’ve disregarded their own regulations and not rectified it when it’s revealed that they’ve done wrong.

 

[SBAndy]

Leaving the EU will be the best thing for us, why are you so afraid of us becoming independent
Just accept the result and stop spitting your dummy out

Look, I voted leave but you’re irritating me with your lack of coherent contribution. Don’t buy into the hyperbole around Brexit and instead think of something constructive to say.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Your user name is very apt with this post.

So half the population didn't know what they voted for yet the other half.....the half you so desperately want... ..knew exactly what they were voting for?

That could be used as a throwaway comment by both sides.

Everybody knows that reform in the EU is desperately needed. But reforms in the EU won't happen to the benefit to those in the EU. They break their own rules, regulations and laws to keep it going. When caught out they say they did nothing wrong after an enquiry. Then after another enquiry they admit the charge. But they refused to do anything. Then there is a cote with the members of the EU. Only 12 out of over 500 say it should be reversed. Nothing happens.

So what makes you think there will ever be reform in the way needed? All the leaders of the countries in the EU say reform is needed. It isn't a surprise that reform is needed. But those who run the EU only give top jobs to those who want to continue the status quo.

Did those who voted remain vote for this? If not did they vote remain not knowing what they voted for?

Ah yes I hear I am a leaver because I can see the argument on both sides. But comments like those you have made cause damage between the two sides. 'You voted leave so you didn't have a clue what you voted for' becomes someone calling them thick as they didn't vote what someone else wanted.

My whole family is moving to France next month. Could someone try to explain why I am such a staunch leaver when we are moving to an EU country?

What I said was there is no ambiguity in the statement 'remain in the EU'. Had the statement been "remain and try to get reform" there would have been ambiguity as to what type of reform and what was achievable. But that wasn't the statement so it's not an issue and obtaining reform is a separate issue to the question asked.

Personally I don't think there should have been any ambiguity in the statement leave - it should mean leave with no deal, with getting a new deal with the EU a totally separate issue to be discussed if leave won. But that wasn't the position leave had when campaigning - they had numerous ideas of what leave meant. That's why we've ended up in this impasse.

That's why I think a second referendum with a clear statement of exactly what leave is is needed.

Frankly the only way we're going to get any deal through parliament is to actually leave, because parliament currently has the benefit of retaining EU trade dealsTake that away and be on WTO terms and parliament will suddenly realise they need better terms than that. But in that scenario the EU will also realise that and we'll be at a disadvantage.

I've no doubt achieving reform in the EU is a difficult thing to achieve as there are so many voices and vetos. But it's better to be one of those voices than not being listened to as an outsider while at the same time being at a massive disadvantage in trade negotiations with other countries.

 

[The Lurker]

But they don't use the same constituency boundaries. And even though the map is pretty much totally coloured Brexit to believe that a GE would have the same result you're in a fantasy land.

If you don't believe me look at the previous EU elections and the performance of UKIP. Then look at the GE the year after (or 2017) and see the massive difference.

as confirmed by the experts

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

as confirmed by the experts

So you really believe Tories would get only ONE seat at a GE?!

Peoples voting in a GE will be very very different to what we saw in the EU elections and Brexit would pick up a handful of seats at best I reckon. Like I said, after the last EU elections we had loads of people saying how UKIP were now a force and Farage said they'd win a lot of seats in a GE. Remind me how many they ACTUALLY won in the GE just a year later?

 

[dutchman]

I think it hilarious that the Tories chose The Magic Money Tree as their logo while the SNP picked a Hangman's Noose!

 

[Astute]

I have no idea why you keep on and on about Selmayr and saying that the EU is blocking reform wanted by governments. Selmayr is irrelevant in the big picture. No one is discussing Selmayr. No election campaign was about Selmayr.

The EU is not a separate state ruled by unelected old men. You should have twigged that at least with the success of the BXP at the EU elections.

The reason why some reforms are blocked is because all countries don’t want the same reforms. Macron wants reform. The Germans want reform. But different reforms. Most countries want to stop a race to the bottom in tax rates, but Ireland, Netherlands, Luxemburg can use their veto to block tax reform as the EU is not a fiscal union. Macron is for a fiscal union with a EU finance minister, but cannot get the others to waive their vetos. It is individual countries that are blocking major reforms not the EU. The EU is not a state it is a Union.

Oh yes your normal line that nobody is talking about Selmayr so nobody should talk about Selmayr. The point is I didn't mention Selmayr.

I pointed out that those running the EU don't want to reform the way it is run. That was in reply to someone making out that it will reform. Not even the leaders of the countries in the EU can get the reform they want and need. And yes I see this as being a big problem. Even you finally admitted that it shows a lack of transparency in the way the EU is run.

 

[Astute]

What I said was there is no ambiguity in the statement 'remain in the EU'. Had the statement been "remain and try to get reform" there would have been ambiguity as to what type of reform and what was achievable. But that wasn't the statement so it's not an issue and obtaining reform is a separate issue to the question asked.

Personally I don't think there should have been any ambiguity in the statement leave - it should mean leave with no deal, with getting a new deal with the EU a totally separate issue to be discussed if leave won. But that wasn't the position leave had when campaigning - they had numerous ideas of what leave meant. That's why we've ended up in this impasse.

That's why I think a second referendum with a clear statement of exactly what leave is is needed.

Frankly the only way we're going to get any deal through parliament is to actually leave, because parliament currently has the benefit of retaining EU trade dealsTake that away and be on WTO terms and parliament will suddenly realise they need better terms than that. But in that scenario the EU will also realise that and we'll be at a disadvantage.

I've no doubt achieving reform in the EU is a difficult thing to achieve as there are so many voices and vetos. But it's better to be one of those voices than not being listened to as an outsider while at the same time being at a massive disadvantage in trade negotiations with other countries.

So you do understand my point then.

It was leave or remain. The question wasn't how do we want to remain or how do we want to leave. But many on both sides of the fence make out that the question was different to what it was.

Maybe the question should have been put in a different way. But it wasn't. I am not against the principle of there being another referendum. But I can see the problems it would cause. If it wouldn't cause a problem Farage wouldn't have got 1/3 of the votes with a new party without any policies. Ah I hear you say that it was because he is all for Brexit. But what about those parties who were all for remaining? How did they do?

I am all for remaining but I don't trust those who run the EU. And they certainly won't do what is best for those of us that have to keep to the rules they set. Yet they don't even keep to them themselves. This is a major problem.

 

[Astute]

So you really believe Tories would get only ONE seat at a GE?!

Peoples voting in a GE will be very very different to what we saw in the EU elections and Brexit would pick up a handful of seats at best I reckon. Like I said, after the last EU elections we had loads of people saying how UKIP were now a force and Farage said they'd win a lot of seats in a GE. Remind me how many they ACTUALLY won in the GE just a year later?

We have lots of people saying lots of things all the time. Look at Mart. If you believed everything he says you would know that the EU is better than sliced bread. You would believe that they never do anything wrong intentionally. You would believe that we would crash and burn outside the EU.

The truth on what is said is somewhere in the middle of what is said by all sides. One side tries to make things sound worse than they are. The other side tries to make out that things are better than they are.

Brexit party in a GE? How would you know what would happen? Just like if someone started a remain party. If they called it The Remain Party it would suddenly become massive like The Brexit Party. It would get millions of votes even if there was a total idiot in charge of it. The Brexit Party has shown this. Offer people what they want and it will get supported.

So the Brexit party wouldn't get votes in a GE? Look back before the Brexit party came about. I saw it coming. When I said about it on here it got the normal comments. I also said that it would get millions of votes if it came to a GE and was still about and Brexit hadn't happened. I still think the same. But all some wanted to say was brexiteers didn't have a voice. The only voice was those going on remain marches.

Try sitting back and taking into consideration everything on both sides however much you want remain to happen. You will then see the picture much more clearly. Too many people just want to hear their side put forward and rubbish everything else. That has been this thread all the way through. There is only a few of us that try to look at things from both sides of the fence.

Another referendum? I would love someone to explain how it would sort anything. It could go either way and still leave half the population pissed off. The best thing is what most don't want. Half in half out with most things staying as they are. Mays deal with several tweaks. But remainers want to remain and leavers want to leave. And nothing will change my mind on this. Remaining would solve all my problems. You have no clue what I am going through ATM. But I am not foolish enough to ignore half of the population of the UK.

 

[Sick Boy]

We have lots of people saying lots of things all the time. Look at Mart. If you believed everything he says you would know that the EU is better than sliced bread. You would believe that they never do anything wrong intentionally. You would believe that we would crash and burn outside the EU.

The truth on what is said is somewhere in the middle of what is said by all sides. One side tries to make things sound worse than they are. The other side tries to make out that things are better than they are.

Brexit party in a GE? How would you know what would happen? Just like if someone started a remain party. If they called it The Remain Party it would suddenly become massive like The Brexit Party. It would get millions of votes even if there was a total idiot in charge of it. The Brexit Party has shown this. Offer people what they want and it will get supported.

So the Brexit party wouldn't get votes in a GE? Look back before the Brexit party came about. I saw it coming. When I said about it on here it got the normal comments. I also said that it would get millions of votes if it came to a GE and was still about and Brexit hadn't happened. I still think the same. But all some wanted to say was brexiteers didn't have a voice. The only voice was those going on remain marches.

Try sitting back and taking into consideration everything on both sides however much you want remain to happen. You will then see the picture much more clearly. Too many people just want to hear their side put forward and rubbish everything else. That has been this thread all the way through. There is only a few of us that try to look at things from both sides of the fence.

Another referendum? I would love someone to explain how it would sort anything. It could go either way and still leave half the population pissed off. The best thing is what most don't want. Half in half out with most things staying as they are. Mays deal with several tweaks. But remainers want to remain and leavers want to leave. And nothing will change my mind on this. Remaining would solve all my problems. You have no clue what I am going through ATM. But I am not foolish enough to ignore half of the population of the UK.

Sorry to be pedantic but a quarter of the population didn’t even bother to vote in the EU referendum. No one knows how the Brexit party would do in a GE because the Euro Elections had a low turnout in the UK (I think around 35%) and you’d think that those who would vote for Farage in a GE would have been worked up enough to vote in the Euro Elections.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Jeremy Corbyn defies call to start referendum campaign 'now'

Corbyn can't make his mind up on a second ref

 

[dutchman]

Jeremy Corbyn defies call to start referendum campaign 'now'

Corbyn can't make his mind up on a second ref

He can but he knows whichever side he comes down on means electoral suicide.

 

[martcov]

Oh yes your normal line that nobody is talking about Selmayr so nobody should talk about Selmayr. The point is I didn't mention Selmayr.

I pointed out that those running the EU don't want to reform the way it is run. That was in reply to someone making out that it will reform. Not even the leaders of the countries in the EU can get the reform they want and need. And yes I see this as being a big problem. Even you finally admitted that it shows a lack of transparency in the way the EU is run.

I say again. Things like Selmayr are bad, but not the most important when it comes to voting for a particular party or the UK leaving the EU.

They have strengthened the procedures for the future. Good.

May‘s appointment as head of UK civil service will be there long after she has gone and no procedures have been altered. No mention of that from you.

The EU will reform. There is more interest in the EU than for decades. Which is great. People are getting involved, which can only be a good thing. The UK is represented largely by useless chancers in the BXP whose only aim is to disrupt and cash in as much as possible. Disgusting.

Here is a nice description of the most likely, unelected by popular vote, next PM of the UK:
“He’s lied his way through life, he’s lied his way through politics, he’s a huckster with a degree of charm to which I am immune” & “as well as being mendacious he’s incompetent”

Well said Chris Patten. Enjoy.

 

[Grendel]

I say again. Things like Selmayr are bad, but not the most important when it comes to voting for a particular party or the UK leaving the EU.

They have strengthened the procedures for the future. Good.

May‘s appointment as head of UK civil service will be there long after she has gone and no procedures have been altered. No mention of that from you.

The EU will reform. There is more interest in the EU than for decades. Which is great. People are getting involved, which can only be a good thing. The UK is represented largely by useless chancers in the BXP whose only aim is to disrupt and cash in as much as possible. Disgusting.

Here is a nice description of the most likely, unelected by popular vote, next PM of the UK:
“He’s lied his way through life, he’s lied his way through politics, he’s a huckster with a degree of charm to which I am immune” & “as well as being mendacious he’s incompetent”

Well said Chris Patten. Enjoy.

Is the blood stained Blair creature making a comeback?

 

[martcov]

He can but he knows whichever side he comes down on means electoral suicide.

As is sitting on the fence.

YouGov has LibDems in front in „Britain Elects“ polls.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Is the blood stained Blair creature making a comeback?

He should be in jail

 

[martcov]

Is the blood stained Blair creature making a comeback?

Don’t know, but am pleased that the Liberals are gaining in support. The Tories and labour have screwed up.

 

[Grendel]

Don’t know, but am pleased that the Liberals are gaining in support. The Tories and labour have screwed up.

Lol they are the biggest liars in parliament with the morals of a jellyfish

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We have lots of people saying lots of things all the time. Look at Mart. If you believed everything he says you would know that the EU is better than sliced bread. You would believe that they never do anything wrong intentionally. You would believe that we would crash and burn outside the EU.

The truth on what is said is somewhere in the middle of what is said by all sides. One side tries to make things sound worse than they are. The other side tries to make out that things are better than they are.

Brexit party in a GE? How would you know what would happen? Just like if someone started a remain party. If they called it The Remain Party it would suddenly become massive like The Brexit Party. It would get millions of votes even if there was a total idiot in charge of it. The Brexit Party has shown this. Offer people what they want and it will get supported.

So the Brexit party wouldn't get votes in a GE? Look back before the Brexit party came about. I saw it coming. When I said about it on here it got the normal comments. I also said that it would get millions of votes if it came to a GE and was still about and Brexit hadn't happened. I still think the same. But all some wanted to say was brexiteers didn't have a voice. The only voice was those going on remain marches.

Try sitting back and taking into consideration everything on both sides however much you want remain to happen. You will then see the picture much more clearly. Too many people just want to hear their side put forward and rubbish everything else. That has been this thread all the way through. There is only a few of us that try to look at things from both sides of the fence.

Another referendum? I would love someone to explain how it would sort anything. It could go either way and still leave half the population pissed off. The best thing is what most don't want. Half in half out with most things staying as they are. Mays deal with several tweaks. But remainers want to remain and leavers want to leave. And nothing will change my mind on this. Remaining would solve all my problems. You have no clue what I am going through ATM. But I am not foolish enough to ignore half of the population of the UK.

I wasn't going on what others have said - I'm going on what previous experiences strongly suggest will happen. It was the poster saying Brexit would get 400+ seats that was quoting what someone else said based solely on if you took the EU results and extrapolated them to a GE. I was pointing out that historically there isn't a great correlation between local/EU elections and GE.

I didn't say Brexit wouldn't get a decent number of votes, I said they wouldn't win many seats. I don't KNOW that is what would happen, but past experience and historic evidence makes it highly probable. UKIP last time is a good indicator of how Brexit would fair. Local/EU elections people are more willing to register protest votes or vote for a smaller party. GE's people tend to go back and vote for one of the main two parties, often strategically for fear of handing government to the other if they don't.

The reason I think a second referendum would solve it is because parliament is going round and round in circles arguing the toss over what 'Leave' meant. Make it clear it is a straight choice between Remain or Leave completely (no custom union, no freedom of movement, no free market, hard border etc) so you can't have people saying we can get Norway +, Canada +. The fact Leave made all these suggestions is why we have had this deadlock for three years.

If we make it clear it's just in or out, once the people have decided that parliament can't argue they need a say - the overall will of the people is absolutely clear. Yes, half of the population would be pissed off but what a majority had voted for would be absolutely clear and government could get the process done quickly if it were still necessary and any MP's that continued to still try and block couldn't use the excuse of 'what is Brexit'. It wouldn't shut the other side up either way, but it would actually result in some movement on the issue and we can move on.

I'm not ignoring half the population of the UK, I'm acknowledging a number of them voted in the belief that we'd also be getting a renegotiated deal as a non-EU country.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Lol they are the biggest liars in parliament with the morals of a jellyfish

Their backing down on tuition fees in order to get their other main policy of a referendum on AV was a massive strategic error and they were rightly hammered for it next time round.

They should have known that both Tory and Labour would support FPTP because it works massively in their favour, so their supporters (who were likely to get a great deal more media coverage) were going to make it incredibly hard. Had they won that referendum it would've worked to their advantage, as even taking into account they'd have lost votes due to the tuition fees seats wise they'd likely have been better of.

It was a huge gamble and they lost.

And technically they never lied. They said a Lib Dem government wouldn't put tuition fees up. They were actually the minority partners in a coalition.

 

[RegTheDonk]

As is sitting on the fence.

YouGov has LibDems in front in „Britain Elects“ polls.

The Libs never live up to their potential in GE's. If that gobby bint Swinson gets to run the show, doubt they will do much good. Can't answer a question without shouting she wants to "ditch brexit".

 

[fernandopartridge]

Honestly, if people vote for the Lib Dems purely due to their position on Brexit they are stupid, do they not remember voting for the pack of lying bastards off the back of the TV debates in 2010?

Why is there no attempt at all from centrists to begin to understand why people voted for Brexit?