The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (279 Viewers)

[Astute]

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/625176/EPRS_STU(2018)625176_EN.pdf

How about actions and not words. Every leader of every country in the EU wants and needs reform in the EU. But nothing has happened other than lip service.

Just like when you said that the procedure for electing others into a top position in the EU have changed so it can't happen again. I asked you to show what you mean. You changed the subject. Because all they have to do is ignore procedures, rules, regulations and laws to get what they want.

 

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[Astute]

UK exists because its member states choose to be part of it and therefore have to pay into it. EU exists because member states choose to be part of it and therefore have to pay into it. If anything UK is less democratic because some of its member states were initially forced into it through military action.

Obviously there are huge differences in the way each works but the principle is the same.

UK money stays in the UK other than the money we have to give to the EU or money we donate to help needy countries. We have the choice. We don't have the choice on where the billions of pounds each year go that goes to the EU.

 

[martcov]

The same job that the Bank of England has performed in Britain for centuries!


Again, good riddance!


I won't be voting on EU issues in a general election and neither will many others.

Oversight of 28 countries’ banks is a bigger deal than the BoE in Britain. More influence.

You’re not bothered about other people’s UK jobs. Nice.

You won’t be voting on any issues if you vote for Farage as he doesn’t have a manifesto. You will just vote for what you believe the leader stands for.

 

[Astute]

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State of the Union 2018 – Commission proposes last elements needed for compromise on migration and border reform

There are several reports of Juncker’s reform suggestions. Just google “Juncker reform” and apologise.

Like where he wanted to chase those using tax dodges but wouldn't allow anyone to look into the tax dodges he was in charge of? Because he would have been in charge of looking into his own tax dodges.

So what has changed so far?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

UK money stays in the UK other than the money we have to give to the EU or money we donate to help needy countries. We have the choice. We don't have the choice on where the billions of pounds each year go that goes to the EU.

English money gets redistributed to Scotland and Wales. English people don't get a say in how those governments/assemblies spend it. Other UK countries get free prescriptions, England doesn't, despite paying in the most.

 

[Astute]

Oversight of 28 countries’ banks is a bigger deal than the BoE in Britain. More influence.

You’re not bothered about other people’s UK jobs. Nice.

You won’t be voting on any issues if you vote for Farage as he doesn’t have a manifesto. You will just vote for what you believe the leader stands for.

You don't care about anything other than us remaining in the EU. You make excuses for everything those running the EU does wrong. Then your fantasy mind tries to make out that the UK does it even more.

I just don't trust those who hold all the power in the EU. Even Merkel wants the power to go back to the leaders of the countries in the EU. But you come out with changes they want to make that has nothing to do with who holds all the power.

 

[martcov]

How about actions and not words. Every leader of every country in the EU wants and needs reform in the EU. But nothing has happened other than lip service.

Just like when you said that the procedure for electing others into a top position in the EU have changed so it can't happen again. I asked you to show what you mean. You changed the subject. Because all they have to do is ignore procedures, rules, regulations and laws to get what they want.

I have posted the last ombudsman’s report with her recommendations. They do not ignore all regulations all day everywhere in the EU. That is another nonsensical Astute claim. They were not even found to have ignored any law in the Selmayer case. They knew the law and that there were 2 ways of appointing the head of the civil service. They used the emergency rule, but were found to have created the emergency for their purposes. I haven’t changed the subject. It is still the same, a criticism of your wild sweeping statements.

You answer with more wild sweeping statements.

As for reforms, maybe every leader wants reforms. The commission wants reform. The problem is not some mysterious conspiracy to stop reforms, it is that to get major reforms through you need consensus. Countries follow their own interests, that is democracy. The EU is not a super state, but a Union of sovereign states.

 

[Astute]

English money gets redistributed to Scotland and Wales. English people don't get a say in how those governments/assemblies spend it. Other UK countries get free prescriptions, England doesn't, despite paying in the most.

And?

The money raised in tax in the UK goes back mainly to those in the UK. We are all one. We have the same government.

 

[Astute]

I have posted the last ombudsman’s report with her recommendations. They do not ignore all regulations all day everywhere in the EU. That is another nonsensical Astute claim. They were not even found to have ignored any law in the Selmayer case. They knew the law and that there were 2 ways of appointing the head of the civil service. They used the emergency rule, but were found to have created the emergency for their purposes. I haven’t changed the subject. It is still the same, a criticism of your wild sweeping statements.

You answer with more wild sweeping statements.

As for reforms, maybe every leader wants reforms. The commission wants reform. The problem is not some mysterious conspiracy to stop reforms, it is that to get major reforms through you need consensus. Countries follow their own interests, that is democracy. The EU is not a super state, but a Union of sovereign states.

So you agree with the findings but pretend that it wasn't against EU law? Yes or no.

All countries want to take power back. Why can't they?

 

[martcov]

Like where he wanted to chase those using tax dodges but wouldn't allow anyone to look into the tax dodges he was in charge of? Because he would have been in charge of looking into his own tax dodges.

So what has changed so far?

Google it. The problem with tax dodges is that the UK has 9 Crown Dependencies. The problem with tax levels is that: Ireland, Luxemburg, Holland always Block the EU’s attempts at tax reform. Not Juncker as you claim.

 

[dutchman]

Oversight of 28 countries’ banks is a bigger deal than the BoE in Britain. More influence.

It's a Quango which duplicates the job already done by national central banks and Britain doesn't have any more influence over it than any other member state.

You’re not bothered about other people’s UK jobs. Nice.

Real jobs, yes. Superfluous jobs, no.

 

[martcov]

So you agree with the findings but pretend that it wasn't against EU law? Yes or no.

All countries want to take power back. Why can't they?

No. You made that up.

No country wants to leave the EU ( apart from the UK ). No country wants to power back. Where are you getting your facts from?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

And?

The money raised in tax in the UK goes back mainly to those in the UK. We are all one. We have the same government.

Money raised in the EU mainly goes to those in the EU. How that money is raised is different but it is done so in a way that those member states have agreed with via a budget.

It's the same argument, just changing the scale.

And actually, Scots, Welsh and NI get a say in issues that only affect England via government. The various assemblies etc can make a decision on issues only affecting them without the others getting a say.

You therefore must either want the UK disbanded or the EU to have greater authority. Otherwise you're contradicting yourself being pro-UK but anti-EU.

 

[martcov]

It's a Quango which duplicates the job already done by national central banks and Britain doesn't have any more influence over it than any other member state.



Real jobs, yes. Superfluous jobs, no.

It obviously doesn’t do just the job by National central banks do. It oversees what they are doing.

It was centred in the UK because of the financial centre of London. Exactly because of expertise. These are real jobs. The reason there is an oversight is prevent another crash, or at least see the warning signs. You call that superfluous.

 

[Grendel]

I don’t know why you always bring everything back to labour as if that somehow supports your stance?


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It shows that the notion anti Eu origins is a far right conspiracy is nonsense

Any socialist despises the EU

 

[dutchman]

It obviously doesn’t do just the job by National central banks do. It oversees what they are doing.

It was centred in the UK because of the financial centre of London. Exactly because of expertise. These are real jobs. The reason there is an oversight is prevent another crash, or at least see the warning signs. You call that superfluous.

Are you saying the Bundesbank doesn't do an adequate job of regulating the German banking industry?

 

[Grendel]

Britain(UK) doesn't have any money of its own. It steals it from taxpayers of its member states England, Scotland, Wales and NI.

Whet a ridiculous statement

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Real jobs, yes. Superfluous jobs, no.

What is a superfluous job?

Let's get rid of football and all sports people - that's superfluous and has no actual use. Same with all fiction writers, TV, theatre, art. Even manual stuff like gardeners are superfluous - we don't NEED to manicure our green spaces and it would be far better ecologically and environmentally to just let nature do as it pleases.

If you employ 100 people in a factory but the same work can be done by 50, are those extra 50 people superfluous jobs?

 

[skybluetony176]

And?

The money raised in tax in the UK goes back mainly to those in the UK. We are all one. We have the same government.

No we don’t. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland has a second tier government that England doesn’t. Hence we don’t all have the same rules.

 

[martcov]

Are you saying the Bundesbank doesn't do an adequate job of regulating the German banking industry?

No, I am not. EBA “promotes cooperation between national authorities”. Which means to supervise banks who trade in different EU countries. The Bundesbank May not have the authority to regulate it’s banks’ activities in other countries.

From it’s website:

What it does

• Provides input into the creation of a single, standard set of rules for EU banking – the Single Rulebook.
• Provides centralised disclosure of supervisory data on EU banks (to increase transparency, market discipline and financial stability across the EU).
• Promotes cooperation between national authorities on supervising banking groups that operate in more than 1 country, and mediates disputes involving more than 1 country.
• Promotes a transparent, simple and fair EU market for consumers of financial products and services, and ensures all consumers are treated fairly and protected across the EU.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Whet a ridiculous statement

it was facetious comment based on the post I was replying too. The principle is the same. Do English people pay taxes because they want to see the Scots get free prescriptions while they don't? I very much doubt it, but the legal framework that has been set up and agreed to by the member nations means that's what happen whether the Engish like it or not. We could stop that money being spent in ways we don't like by voting for England to become independent and we won't have to give money to the others via the institution of the UK.

 

[Grendel]

it was facetious comment based on the post I was replying too. The principle is the same. Do English people pay taxes because they want to see the Scots get free prescriptions while they don't? I very much doubt it, but the legal framework that has been set up and agreed to by the member nations means that's what happen whether the Engish like it or not. We could stop that money being spent in ways we don't like by voting for England to become independent and we won't have to give money to the others via the institution of the UK.

What do you mean it happens if the English like it or not?

The Westminster parliament can through legislative process stop devolution should it wish and revert back to a central policy for all

 

[martcov]

You don't care about anything other than us remaining in the EU. You make excuses for everything those running the EU does wrong. Then your fantasy mind tries to make out that the UK does it even more.

I just don't trust those who hold all the power in the EU. Even Merkel wants the power to go back to the leaders of the countries in the EU. But you come out with changes they want to make that has nothing to do with who holds all the power.

No fantasy, just recorded fact.

Who are those who hold all the power in the EU? The 28 elected heads of government? Or the 700+ MEPs elected by the EU electorate? Or the EU commission of “cabinet” members ( commissioners )? Have you a link to what Merkel says?

 

[martcov]

What do you mean it happens if the English like it or not?

The Westminster parliament can through legislative process stop devolution should it wish and revert back to a central policy for all

That would be a gas. Haha.

Seriously, the chances though are 0,00.

 

[Grendel]

That would be a gas. Haha.

Seriously, the chances though are 0,00.

Why? You prefer centralism don’t you?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

What do you mean it happens if the English like it or not?

The Westminster parliament can through legislative process stop devolution should it wish and revert back to a central policy for all

And if it did do that what do you think would happen? If that happened Scottish independent movement would pretty much take over and would spread to wales. With central policy no right to vote for independence in a referendum would lead to direct action and quite possibly a terrorist organisation called the SRA. The Troubles in NI would kick off again. It'd be a 'civil war'.

 

[Grendel]

And if it did do that what do you think would happen? If that happened Scottish independent movement would pretty much take over and would spread to wales. With central policy no right to vote for independence in a referendum would lead to direct action and quite possibly a terrorist organisation called the SRA. The Troubles in NI would kick off again. It'd be a 'civil war'.

So these countries would operate as independent states as they would desire fiscal, monetary and legislative self autonomy?

They can’t have a referendum with Westminster approval

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

They'd desire it but if Westminster took back central control they wouldn't be allowed to - Britain wouldn't let them.

 

[Grendel]

They'd desire it but if Westminster took back central control they wouldn't be allowed to - Britain wouldn't let them.

So they’d desire an independent monetary policy - so they’d reject bring in the Eu?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I'm not arguing that the Scottish independence movement is full of inconsistencies in being anti-UK but wanting to stay in the EU. It wasn't long ago Salmond et al were saying they'd reject the pound and take the Euro. Then the Euro crashed and suddenly they wanted to keep the pound. If after Brexit the pound is badly affected expect them to change their mind again.

It's a thing I don't get about many of those favouring leave. They don't want interference from the EU but most are fundamentally opposed to Scottish independence and the break up of the UK would be a terrible thing. They can't see that those Scots favouring independence see the UK in the same way as Leavers see the EU - interfering in their own affairs.

It's looking at parallels to the situation at different scales. Maybe we should look to leave the UN because it interferes in how each individual nation chooses to act?

 

[Grendel]

I'm not arguing that the Scottish independence movement is full of inconsistencies in being anti-UK but wanting to stay in the EU. It wasn't long ago Salmond et al were saying they'd reject the pound and take the Euro. Then the Euro crashed and suddenly they wanted to keep the pound. If after Brexit the pound is badly affected expect them to change their mind again.

It's a thing I don't get about many of those favouring leave. They don't want interference from the EU but most are fundamentally opposed to Scottish independence and the break up of the UK would be a terrible thing. They can't see that those Scots favouring independence see the UK in the same way as Leavers see the EU - interfering in their own affairs.

It's looking at parallels to the situation at different scales. Maybe we should look to leave the UN because it interferes in how each individual nation chooses to act?

I’m not opposed to independence at all. Surely what’s more confusing is remain voters bigging up the benefits of self governance, WTO and hard borders with Ireland

 

[dutchman]

No country wants to leave the EU ( apart from the UK ).

That's because they haven't had the bill for Brexit yet.

 

[skybluetony176]

That's because they haven't had the bill for Brexit yet.

Neither have we. That will sway them into staying.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I’m not opposed to independence at all. Surely what’s more confusing is remain voters bigging up the benefits of self governance, WTO and hard borders with Ireland

I find this very confusing. Who is 'bigging up' the benefits of WTO and hard borders?

If you're referring to me, I'm not 'bigging them up' and certainly don't see any benefits to them - I think they'd be terrible. I'm stating those are the realities of what is likely to happen as the only option that has a realistic chance of getting through is no deal, either through government or second referendum.

 

[Grendel]

I find this very confusing. Who is 'bigging up' the benefits of WTO and hard borders?

If you're referring to me, I'm not 'bigging them up' and certainly don't see any benefits to them - I think they'd be terrible. I'm stating those are the realities of what is likely to happen as the only option that has a realistic chance of getting through is no deal, either through government or second referendum.

Martcov has been cheering on Scotland to independence on this very thread for Scotland which will mean hard borders and WTO terms