The EU referendum (1 Viewer)

[dutchman]

Has it been announced what the actual question will be?

Pretty much:

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-20/eu-referendum-what-you-need-to-know/

 

---

[Sick Boy]

Why doesn't she get a vote? I didn't realise that - is it to do with nationality as I thought after 5 years, you can go for dual nationality/passport as I remember a few year back the media clamouring for Almunia (Arsenal keeper) to play for England before we had anyone decent!

She is Italian and we are not married so she is not entitled to vote despite paying taxes over here and working for NHS; I really do not understand how a British citizen could reside in Italy and not even returned to the country is entitled to vote! We moved back over from Italy in summer of 2014, so the dual nationality passport isn't an option and it is also very expensive! Being Italian I imagine it would be impossible to persuade her to go for it as well.

She genuinely feels scapegoated and has even broken down in tears because of it; there will be plenty of others like her with similar feelings who will turn their back on the UK.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Obviously in the event of a vote to leave she would be allowed to stay but she has already said that under no circumstances would she want to stay in a country that seeks to put blame on working EU migrants.

Does a vote to leave automatically do that?

 

[Otis]

Has it been announced what the actual question will be?

Yep.

BoJo or DavCam?

 

[Sumo the Micky Quinn]

Why doesn't she get a vote? I didn't realise that - is it to do with nationality as I thought after 5 years, you can go for dual nationality/passport as I remember a few year back the media clamouring for Almunia (Arsenal keeper) to play for England before we had anyone decent!

[h=2]http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
Who will be able to vote?[/h]British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals who have lived overseas for less than 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries (Even if they live in the UK) - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote.
[h=2]How will you vote?[/h]It will be a similar system to that during other elections. Firstly, if you have registered to vote, you'll be sent a card telling you when voting takes place and where you should go to vote on 23 June. On that day, when you go to the polling station you will be given a piece of paper with the referendum question on it. You then go to a booth, which will have a pencil in it for your use. You then put a X in the box which reflects your choice and put the paper into a ballot box. Alternatively you will also be able to opt to vote by post.


Same for me in Spain. I can vote in local council elections, and EU elections but not a General Election, I am considered a resident not a citizen

 

[Sumo the Micky Quinn]

Why Mrs Clegg won't be voting for her husband - she's not allowed to

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...alez-Durantez-vote-husband.html#ixzz40u5Y3DpM

 

[Sick Boy]

Does a vote to leave automatically do that?

She works in the NHS, so they would offer her the right to stay. The point is that she would not want to stay in the country should the vote be to leave.

 

[Sick Boy]

Why Mrs Clegg won't be voting for her husband - she's not allowed to

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...alez-Durantez-vote-husband.html#ixzz40u5Y3DpM

I know a guy who lives in Italy who is in his 50s and hasn't been back to the UK in 20 years but he can vote.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

She works in the NHS, so they would offer her the right to stay. The point is that she would not want to stay in the country should the vote be to leave.

But my point is, why does a vote to leave have to be an anti-foreigner one?

My problem is I can be quite left leaning, be pro immigration and pro regulation of human rights etc... all things with the EU protects.

However, in an age of devolved power, I'm uncomfortable with the contradiction that comes with a centralised power base across Europe, and also uncomfortable with the restrictions in place that prevent state aid being used to its max, and also prevent import tariffs and the like that could protect our own industry (I think it would be better to pick and choose who we have free trade agreements with).

As such... if people would just stop with the immigration line, and tell me the other ramifications one way or another, I could vote either way.

I said earlier... the sad event is that immigration overwhelms the other arguments as everybody comes to this with empty rhetoric. But there can be other reasons to vote for and against closer union with other nations.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Don't worry, there'll be no 'mass exodus' of EU workers in the event of a leave' vote.

They'll still be here earning great money by their standards.

Let's face it, with unemployment rates pushing 12% in Italy and Portugal and over 20% in Spain, the EU is a pretty unattractive place to start looking for a job.

 

[chiefdave]

Don't worry, there'll be no 'mass exodus' of EU workers in the event of a leave' vote.

Hows it going to work then? If people are voting to leave the EU then those from Europe working here will no longer be able to work here will they? Unless we're keeping the same rules in which case the whole thing is a bit pointless.

 

[Sick Boy]

Don't worry, there'll be no 'mass exodus' of EU workers in the event of a leave' vote.

They'll still be here earning great money by their standards.

Let's face it, with unemployment rates pushing 12% in Italy and Portugal and over 20% in Spain, the EU is a pretty unattractive place to start looking for a job.

I am basing my assessment on real people.

Besides, they won't actually be eligible to work here.

 

[Sick Boy]

Hows it going to work then? If people are voting to leave the EU then those from Europe working here will no longer be able to work here will they? Unless we're keeping the same rules in which case the whole thing is a bit pointless.

Don't forget we will need to find houses and money for the Brits in Europe as well who will have to return and will inevitably be very pissed off.

 

[Sick Boy]

But my point is, why does a vote to leave have to be an anti-foreigner one?

My problem is I can be quite left leaning, be pro immigration and pro regulation of human rights etc... all things with the EU protects.

However, in an age of devolved power, I'm uncomfortable with the contradiction that comes with a centralised power base across Europe, and also uncomfortable with the restrictions in place that prevent state aid being used to its max, and also prevent import tariffs and the like that could protect our own industry (I think it would be better to pick and choose who we have free trade agreements with).

As such... if people would just stop with the immigration line, and tell me the other ramifications one way or another, I could vote either way.

I said earlier... the sad event is that immigration overwhelms the other arguments as everybody comes to this with empty rhetoric. But there can be other reasons to vote for and against closer union with other nations.

I actually agree with you but most of the arguments that come out of the leave camp are to do with migration, reclaiming Britain's borders etc etc. Those who are here from EU countries are interpreting it as anti-foreigner.

 

[dutchman]

Europeans lived and worked here before Britain joined the Common Market so there's no reason why they shouldn't live and work here if Britain leaves.

Likewise there were Britons living and working in europe before Britain joined the Common Market so there's no reason they wouldn't still live and work in europe if Britain leaves.

 

[Sick Boy]

Europeans lived and worked here before Britain joined the Common Market so there's no reason why they shouldn't live and work here if Britain leaves.

Likewise there were Britons living and working in europe before Britain joined the Common Market so there's no reason they wouldn't still live and work in europe if Britain leaves.

So freedom of movement would still exist then? I am only reporting how the whole thing comes across to EU citizen living in this country, from my own experience.

 

[dutchman]

So freedom of movement would still exist then?

That depends on how you define "freedom of movement"?

Almost four-fifths of immigrants to Britain each year are from outside the EU (mainly from Africa and India) and they seem to have no problem living and working here.

Official treasury forecasts also depend on net-immigration figures each year being at least as great as they are now so it is unlikely the government will suddenly impose any kind of reduction.

 

[fernandopartridge]

That depends on how you define "freedom of movement"?

Almost four-fifths of immigrants to Britain each year are from outside the EU (mainly from Africa and India) and they seem to have no problem living and working here.

Official treasury forecasts also depend on net-immigration figures each year being at least as great as they are now so it is unlikely the government will suddenly impose any kind of reduction.

It's a myth that any Conservative government is anti-immigration. An abundance of labour supply keeps wages down and profits up, it's simple.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

Yes true but how many are actually here legally ? I will save you looking as my very close friend who works for the home office spends endless days as part of a hit squad trawling around places like Harrow and adjacent areas finding them , as a note many are living illegally in little shacks built in gardens , if you live there go upstairs and have a look at all the gardens .....

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I actually agree with you but most of the arguments that come out of the leave camp are to do with migration, reclaiming Britain's borders etc etc. Those who are here from EU countries are interpreting it as anti-foreigner.

So this is the responsibility of those in the know to sell me the other arguiments against.

If all I get is the immigration line then I'm voting to stay in. I'm not comfortable with it all, however.

 

[Sick Boy]

So this is the responsibility of those in the know to sell me the other arguiments against.

If all I get is the immigration line then I'm voting to stay in. I'm not comfortable with it all, however.

I'm not either; I've already said on here that the EU is geared up for countries like Britain.

I've lived in Sicily and they are very anti EU due to the fact that the ordinary people were screwed over in order to join the Euro.

 

[Sick Boy]

That depends on how you define "freedom of movement"?

Almost four-fifths of immigrants to Britain each year are from outside the EU (mainly from Africa and India) and they seem to have no problem living and working here.

Official treasury forecasts also depend on net-immigration figures each year being at least as great as they are now so it is unlikely the government will suddenly impose any kind of reduction.

Are you trying to suggest that it is relatively easy for anyone to come and live and work here. I have frienda from south American who can't even get a visa to visit here

 

[dutchman]

Are you trying to suggest that it is relatively easy for anyone to come and live and work here. I have frienda from south American who can't even get a visa to visit here

I'm saying it will make very little difference one way or the other whether Britain leaves or remains in the EU.

 

[Macca]

What would be useful for me would be some facts on just how many laws are enforced on.us by the EU. Not tabloid shite, the facts. Thats what matters to me and will make my decision

 

[tommydazzle]

It's refreshing to see lots of comments on here which are non-dogmatic and essentially asking for more information. I think it's going to be hard to get this info in the coming months.

I suppose some of my attitude has been informed by farming friends and this is to do with how the EU actually works or not as the case maybe. For instance, animal welfare legislation is often agreed in Brussels but only implemented speedily in the UK leading to unfair competition. When battery farming was outlawed countries had 12 years (yes 12 years!)to convert and comply. Poland dragged their feet, didn't comply and then flooded the market with cheap eggs. I believe farmers are having similar issues with pig welfare and the price of British pork. This is just a single issue which has impinged on local friends and yes I'm sure they might gain in other ways through subsidies but it does show that it is often not a level playing field when it comes to trade and this is what we are told it is largely about. I am still undecided though and would love to see an independent assessment of our gains for the money paid.

 

[Ian1779]

Tony: I refer you to Michael Gove's excellent essay. Really superb stuff.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ent-on-why-he-is-backing-brexit-a6886221.html

and in particular these sections:

I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.
But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

... the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.

The EU is built to keep power and control with the elites rather than the people. Even though we are outside the euro we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before. This growing EU bureaucracy holds us back in every area.

Gove is a total clown.
However his definition of how the EU works 'is built' is spot on.... if he was talking about the Tories of course.

 

[Tonylinc]

Does anyone have details of the deal done by Cameron which is supposed to sway us to vote to stay?

 

[Sick Boy]

Does anyone have details of the deal done by Cameron which is supposed to sway us to vote to stay?

Google is your friend.

The whole thing is a farce and is essentially the Tories scraping.

 

[chiefdave]

Does anyone have details of the deal done by Cameron which is supposed to sway us to vote to stay?

He's not got done much of a deal and nowhere near what he said he was going to do.

Child benefit will be paid at the rate in which the child resides.
An "emergency brake" to limit in-work benefits during a EU migrants first four years in the UK. But can only be applied in the event of exceptional levels of migration and for a maximum of 7 years.
Any British money spent on bailing out eurozone nations will be reimbursed.
Exemption from any EU regulations for UK financial services industry.
Denying automatic free movement to anyone marrying an EU national.
Powers to exclude people believed to be a security risk even those with no previous convictions.

 

[covmark]

He's not got done much of a deal and nowhere near what he said he was going to do.

Child benefit will be paid at the rate in which the child resides.
An "emergency brake" to limit in-work benefits during a EU migrants first four years in the UK. But can only be applied in the event of exceptional levels of migration and for a maximum of 7 years.
Any British money spent on bailing out eurozone nations will be reimbursed.
Exemption from any EU regulations for UK financial services industry.
Denying automatic free movement to anyone marrying an EU national.
Powers to exclude people believed to be a security risk even those with no previous convictions.

So as sickboy says, a farce!

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[chiefdave]

So as sickboy says, a farce!

Pretty much. Not sure the financial regulation one is even a good thing. That sector needs more regulation not exceptions!

 

[martcov]

I don't live in the UK, so I do not know all the arguments. I would like to know what the alternative to EU membership is. Seems from here to be crazy for a small island consisting of 3 countries plus a province on a neighbouring island to go it alone in a world which has become smaller because of travel and trade growth. What if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland decide to hold referendums to split from the UK? I think the UK has to stay in the EU, the alternative seems worse than continued membership. We have to deal with rivals such as USA and Russia and the collapse of much of Arabia into civil wars and religious wars. I don't see us having much weight in world politics as the UK on it's own.

 

[covmark]

I don't live in the UK, so I do not know all the arguments. I would like to know what the alternative to EU membership is. Seems from here to be crazy for a small island consisting of 3 countries plus a province on a neighbouring island to go it alone in a world which has become smaller because of travel and trade growth. What if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland decide to hold referendums to split from the UK? I think the UK has to stay in the EU, the alternative seems worse than continued membership. We have to deal with rivals such as USA and Russia and the collapse of much of Arabia into civil wars and religious wars. I don't see us having much weight in world politics as the UK on it's own.

Tbh mate, it's all been about Boris v Cameron today. I feel that the Pro's and cons haven't been widely explained to us so far. So I'm on the fence atm. You've got the BBC throwing in the "we'll be at more risk from terrorists" line. Then you've got the papers who just salivate over a Boris Johnson v David Cameron duel. So far what really matters seems to be getting lost amongst the gallons of bullshit.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[dutchman]

Then you've got the papers who just salivate over a Boris Johnson v David Cameron duel.

Expect a cat & dog fight between Theresa May and Michael Gove too. It was only Cameron's intervention that stopped her from tearing him apart last time.

 

[Nick]

They need to cut the crap and just explain the pros and cons of each, none of the pantomime.