The EU referendum (2 Viewers)

Now for the other side for balance:

If we leave Europe we're fucked as we become another race to the bottom America-lite under the Tories. Say goodbye to your consumer/environment/worker protections.

shmmeee said:

I seriously doubt we'll just give citizenship to everyone already here. More likely there'll be a grace period then some kind of Visa requirement, but as per my previous answer fuck knows no-one can predict it.

Also, your argument about high skill immigrants is stupid, no-one is suggesting no immigrants, just an application of the same points based system we use outside the EU.

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Its just a small straw poll of about 100 people I have come across in the last week.

Believe or not a lot of who I have spoken to are putting a straight 'Get Out Vote' down heavily to the East European scroungers (Polish usually blamed), the country will be much better of with out them, that's it. Just narrow minded.
However as I also said some (more educated - how they come across) are undecided.

Only a small number have actually said we should stay in the EU. This has surprised a few Spanish friends around me who asume the majority (75%+) of the UK will vote 'Stay In Europe', just because David Cameron has secured a deal. However ask them (the Spanish) the same question, They believe Spain is better off out of Europe. But their complaint is usually that since the Euro currency they are worse off financially.

SIR ERNIE said:

No it's you that's missing the point.

If we leave we'll be in a very strong negotiation position, not a weak one. They need our purchases. Badly. We buy more from them than we sell to them. You'd have to be a shockingly piss poor negotiator to not get what you want.

It's a subservient mentality to talk in terms of France and Germany letting us do something or telling us we must agree. Pathetic.We should have the confidence to be free of the stifling incompetence of these bungling fools.

We can thrive.

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Surely then the same applies if we stay. If we are in such a dominant position and the rest of Europe is so reliant on us Cameron should have been able to negotiate us a position whereby we remain a member of Europe but on our terms.

Strangely the negotiations recently didn't seem to quite go like that. Maybe our hand isn't as strong as you think.

SIR ERNIE said:

That's true.

A vote to stay means you accept that our democratically elected government has no control over who and how many EU citizens (soon to include Turkey's 80million muslims) enter our country.

It means you're happy that our own laws will be decided by politicians from other nations.

A stay vote means that our business will continue to be prevented from trading freely with markets outside the EU.


Don't believe all the scare stories the stay campaign is spouting.

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When are Turkey joining the EU then? I'd be amazed if it actually happened.

The majority of EU workers are employed and many in highly-skilled jobs. The belief EU citizens are coming here to scrounge is absurd.

shmmeee said:

Now for the other side for balance:

If we leave Europe we're fucked as we become another race to the bottom America-lite under the Tories. Say goodbye to your consumer/environment/worker protections.

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That is something that is very concerning and one of the main reasons why I would leave this year should there be a vote to leave. I can't see it happening though and in the end the vote will be to stay in.

Sick Boy said:

When are Turkey joining the EU then? I'd be amazed if it actually happened.

The majority of EU workers are employed and many in highly-skilled jobs. The belief EU citizens are coming here to scrounge is absurd.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

Probably be the next country to join within a few years or so. Cameron has gone on record to support their applicaion. EU will only get bigger and bigger with Serbia and Bosnia etc wanting to apply.

Won't be suprised if the EU implodes and breaks up within the next 10 years.

chiefdave said:

Surely then the same applies if we stay. If we are in such a dominant position and the rest of Europe is so reliant on us Cameron should have been able to negotiate us a position whereby we remain a member of Europe but on our terms.

Strangely the negotiations recently didn't seem to quite go like that. Maybe our hand isn't as strong as you think.

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I refer you to the excellent Daniel Hannan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatfmjCDyWI

ccfctommy said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

Probably be the next country to join within a few years or so. Cameron has gone on record to support their applicaion. EU will only get bigger and bigger with Serbia and Bosnia etc wanting to apply.

Won't be suprised if the EU implodes and breaks up within the next 10 years.

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After the recent migration crisis, I honestly can't see the EU granting Turkey full membership; especially when you take its human rights record into consideration.

I do believe that they will allow visa free travel within the EU to Turks, but not the right to permanently reside.

France are claiming that they will allow migrants to travel onto the UK without checking them, should the UK leave the EU. If anything that would encourage more migrants to attempt to come here as they will actually be on British soil and able to claim asylum.

I cannot see the UK deporting thousands of migrants, can you?

the one that makes me smile in this is Nicola sturgeon... does not want to be governed by Westminster as they know nothing about Scotland.... but quite happy to be governed by Brussels..

SIR ERNIE said:

I refer you to the excellent Daniel Hannan

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He makes Farage look like a lefty liberal!

skybluejelly said:

the one that makes me smile in this is Nicola sturgeon... does not want to be governed by Westminster as they know nothing about Scotland.... but quite happy to be governed by Brussels..

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The Scottish nationalists will gladly tell you there isn't an ounce of similarity between the indy referendum and the EU referendum. Aside from campaigning to leave a political union in the name of greater national sovereignty and patriotism I completely agree. No hypocrisy or double standards whatsoever.

In an attempt to offer some apparently independent rational argument based on apparent facts on the subject of the EU Referendum...
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/what-does-eu-membership-mean-for-the-uk/

...onwards & upwards PUSB

SkyblueBazza said:

In an attempt to offer some apparently independent rational argument based on apparent facts on the subject of the EU Referendum...
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/what-does-eu-membership-mean-for-the-uk/

...onwards & upwards PUSB

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Independent rational argument?

It could have been written by Donald Tusk himself.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

The Scottish nationalists will gladly tell you there isn't an ounce of similarity between the indy referendum and the EU referendum. Aside from campaigning to leave a political union in the name of greater national sovereignty and patriotism I completely agree. No hypocrisy or double standards whatsoever.

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Nor in the approach of the Governments approach to both issues.
Inconsistency and hypocrisy on each Issue. The real defence of the union left to Labour at political cost to themselves.

SIR ERNIE said:

Independent rational argument?

It could have been written by Donald Tusk himself.

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Don't shoot the messenger - read who they are & what they're about...consider ALL the articles & sources of data. Not just form a quick opinion on the first thing that catches your eye.
It probably, or at least hopefully, provides more factual/rational stuff than the scaremongering we get in the newspapers/tv/radio coverage.

...onwards & upwards PUSB

Sick Boy said:

I apologise if I come across as over-bearing but EU membership is something I feel passionate about as a vote to leave will have direct and a severe impact upon my life and will cause me to leave the country.

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Are you trying to get us all to vote to leave Europe?

Astute said:

Are you trying to get us all to vote to leave Europe?

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Hahaha!! Luckily the internet has already reached southern Europe.

Found 660ml of Peroni for only 0.85c last night.

Sick Boy said:

Hahaha!! Luckily the internet has already reached southern Europe.

Found 660ml of Peroni for only 0.85c last night.

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If voting out means no more Peroni, then the Outers can fuck off!

Can we get a poll added to this? Be interesting to see how people are split....

lordsummerisle said:

If voting out means no more Peroni, then the Outers can fuck off!

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Some of first issues that would affect people is when their cheap flights disappear amd their prosecco has been replaced with sparkling English wine with Farage's face on it.

Vin de Farage is infinitely more likely than cheap flights disappearing.

SIR ERNIE said:

Vin de Farage is infinitely more likely than cheap flights disappearing.

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Good luck with that. The out chavs will soon be up in arms when their cheap flights to Kavos disappear.

Why does the eu parliament keep move from Brussels to Strasburg at an estimated cost of 180m euros a year?

Colin1883 said:

Why does the eu parliament keep move from Brussels to Strasburg at an estimated cost of 180m euros a year?

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You're not allowed to ask that.

SIR ERNIE said:

You're not allowed to ask that.

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I did say euros and not pounds... So they cant say I'm a xenaphobe

Sick Boy said:

Hahaha!! Luckily the internet has already reached southern Europe.

Found 660ml of Peroni for only 0.85c last night.

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Last time I was in Italy I found 900cl bottles for 99c. Brought back about 80 bottles of that size. Caught the wife giving it away to family and friends. Said it didn't matter as it was cheap Said she would buy it me back. Then when she saw how much it is here she wanted to use my debit card

Colin1883 said:

Why does the eu parliament keep move from Brussels to Strasburg at an estimated cost of 180m euros a year?

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They have to spend our money on something.

Astute said:

Last time I was in Italy I found 900cl bottles for 99c. Brought back about 80 bottles of that size. Caught the wife giving it away to family and friends. Said it didn't matter as it was cheap Said she would buy it me back. Then when she saw how much it is here she wanted to use my debit card

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One thing guaranteed to change should the UK Vote OUT.

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-eu-countries

Arrivals from EU countries

You don’t pay duty or tax on goods you bring in from the European Union (EU) as long as you:

• transport them yourself
• will use them yourself or give them away as a gift
• have paid duty and tax in the country where you bought them

The Canary Islands, the north of Cyprus, Gibraltar and the Channel Islands are not part of the EU for customs purposes - follow the rules for countries outside the EU instead.

Customs checks

If a customs officer thinks you may be bringing in goods to sell, they may stop you to make checks and ask:

• the type and quantity of goods you’ve bought
• why you bought them
• how you paid for them
• how often you travel
• how much you normally smoke or drink

Although there are no limits to the alcohol and tobacco you can bring in from EU countries, you’re more likely to be asked questions if you have more than the amounts below.

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu

Arrivals from outside the EU

Your duty-free allowance means you can bring in a certain amount of goods for your own use from outside the European Union (EU) without paying duty or tax.
When you’re bringing in goods you must:

• transport them yourself
• use them yourself or give them away as a gift

You can’t combine allowances with other people to bring in more than your individual allowance.
There’s no duty-free allowance if you’re under 17. You can bring alcohol and tobacco to the UK for your own use but you’ll have to pay duty or tax on it when you get to customs.

Alcohol allowance

How much you can bring depends on the type of drink. You can bring in:

• beer - 16 litres
• wine (not sparkling) - 4 litres

You can also bring in either:

• spirits and other liquors over 22% alcohol - 1 litre
• fortified wine (eg port, sherry), sparkling wine and alcoholic drinks up to 22% alcohol - 2 litres

You can split this last allowance, eg you could bring 1 litre of fortified wine and half a litre of spirits (both half of your allowance).
If you go over your allowance

Declare alcohol over your allowance - if you don’t, any alcohol you’re bringing in can be seized.
You may have to pay Excise Duty and import VAT on alcohol you declare.
Tobacco allowance

You can bring in one from the following:

• 200 cigarettes
• 100 cigarillos
• 50 cigars
• 250g tobacco

You can split this allowance - so you could bring in 100 cigarettes and 25 cigars (both half of your allowance).
If you go over your allowance

Declare tobacco products over your allowance - if you don’t, any tobacco products you’re bringing in can be seized.
You may have to pay Excise Duty and import VAT on tobacco products you declare.
Allowance for other goods

You can bring in other goods worth up to £390 (or up to £270 if you arrive by private plane or boat).
If a single item’s worth more than your allowance you pay any duty or tax on its full value, not just the value above the allowance.
If you go over your allowance

You pay Customs Duty on anything you bring in above your allowance. The rate:

• is 2.5% for goods worth up to £630
• depends on the type of goods if they’re worth more than £630 - check by calling the VAT, Customs and Excise Helpline

You don’t pay Customs Duty if you owe less than £9.

Those are limits set by the EU beaurocrats though...if we weren't in it we may be allowed 3x that amount...or none - but at least our elected parliament would decide.
Plus the fact...very few travel abroad to the extent where they save more than a few quid

...onwards & upwards PUSB

If voting out means I can chase my cheese loving, garlic worshiping, striped jumper wearing, girly bike riding, half French brother - in - law out of this country, by way of pitch fork, I'm out.

I'm still undecided on this one. I'm against free movement on the grounds of the impact on housing. I'm against bureaucracy in all its sloth-like forms. However I'm unable to assess the potential impact on the economy of leaving and would love to see some models by an independent with documented assumptions.

Are the undecided also chavs, or do I just become a chav if I eventually decide to vote 'out'? I don't like the term, BTW - it's a very pejorative way to refer to people who really need more help.