Time for Plain Speaking (2 Viewers)

[Godiva]

If SISU build a new ground for £30m how much interest are they going to charge CCFC. Just use a percentage

zero, nil, nothing.

The stadium will be owned by SBS&L - will be a sister company to Otium.

 

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[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Actually I think it was a threat what do you think Torchomatic?

 

[DaleM]

No it's not a threat. He accuses me if not being a fan. In pretty certain he will not want to go in so I will meet him outside and he can see I am a fan. Its actually pathetic to suggest otherwise - I clearly am.

If you read back my original post I accept it could be misconstrued.

You going again then ?

Scab

 

[The Gentleman]

zero, nil, nothing.

The stadium will be owned by SBS&L - will be a sister company to Otium.

Ok then, how much will they charge us in rent? If I remember right, didn't Fisher dodge the question when asked at the forums. That in itself is a worry.

 

[Godiva]

Ok then, how much will they charge us in rent? If I remember right, didn't Fisher dodge the question when asked at the forums. That in itself is a worry.

What he dodged was the question about if 'the club' would own it. And no, the club - being Otium - is not going to own it. It will be owned by a separate company in the SBS&L group. It is quiet common to place property in a separate company.

 

[cloughie]

Ok then, how much will they charge us in rent? If I remember right, didn't Fisher dodge the question when asked at the forums. That in itself is a worry.

No that is the crux of the matter and why sisu should never own the Ricoh or even consider building a new pretend stadium

 

[Rusty Trombone]

zero, nil, nothing.

The stadium will be owned by SBS&L - will be a sister company to Otium.

Why wouldn't SISU's investors want a return for putting in the money to get a stadium built? £1.8m charged in 12/13, I say charged, ML might say fleeced in other circumstances.

 

[The Gentleman]

What he dodged was the question about if 'the club' would own it. And no, the club - being Otium - is not going to own it. It will be owned by a separate company in the SBS&L group. It is quiet common to place property in a separate company.

So I'll ask again, will we be paying rent? Being a building surveyor I am quite aware of how companies own things in a separate company but let us see if we pay any rent on it.

 

[Godiva]

So I'll ask again, will we be paying rent? Being a building surveyor I am quite aware of how companies own things in a separate company but let us see if we pay any rent on it.

Say you own three companies. One company owns the other two. How richer or how poorer would you be if you let one company pay a rent or an interest to the other company?

 

[Godiva]

Why wouldn't SISU's investors want a return for putting in the money to get a stadium built? £1.8m charged in 12/13, I say charged, ML might say fleeced in other circumstances.

If the group make an overall profit they could pay out interest on loans or dividends on shares.
If the group make an overall loss and they pay anything, they would have to refund what they pay out to cover the loss. Doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[chiefdave]

Say you own three companies. One company owns the other two. How richer or how poorer would you be if you let one company pay a rent or an interest to the other company?

Let's say one of your companies, that is using a property owned by another of your companies, but is losing millions every year. You could get rid of that company but before you do you could make sure the company you're getting rid of has a nice long lease where they have to pay the company you continue to own a large rent.

The fact is none of us know what the arrangement will be but the manner in which the question is avoided every time it is raised is certainly cause for concern. It's not difficult to say it will be owned by a different company in the same group but no rent will ever be charged. If there's nothing to hide then why not give a full answer?

 

[Godiva]

Let's say one of your companies, that is using a property owned by another of your companies, but is losing millions every year. You could get rid of that company but before you do you could make sure the company you're getting rid of has a nice long lease where they have to pay the company you continue to own a large rent.

The fact is none of us know what the arrangement will be but the manner in which the question is avoided every time it is raised is certainly cause for concern. It's not difficult to say it will be owned by a different company in the same group but no rent will ever be charged. If there's nothing to hide then why not give a full answer?

Well I can understand how it would be difficult to explain an angry audience that they would use the same group construction as had caused all the upset. Only difference that the old prop-co - being limited - owned a lease and not the stadium.

 

[shmmeee]

If the group make an overall profit they could pay out interest on loans or dividends on shares.
If the group make an overall loss and they pay anything, they would have to refund what they pay out to cover the loss. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Like Labovitch, you seem to live in a world where Sisu will own us forever more. What will happen when they sell? How long will it take/will they give it to make a profit?

You're right though, it doesn't make sense, although it would if for some reason you wanted to artificially inflate the debt of the club.

 

[shmmeee]

Well I can understand how it would be difficult to explain an angry audience that they would use the same group construction as had caused all the upset. Only difference that the old prop-co - being limited - owned a lease and not the stadium.

Except Holdings was the prop-co.

Edit: or rather, wasn't the club.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

If the group make an overall profit they could pay out interest on loans or dividends on shares.
If the group make an overall loss and they pay anything, they would have to refund what they pay out to cover the loss. Doesn't make any sense at all.

The Group has made a loss, interest has been paid out. What are these refunds you suggest?

 

[Godiva]

Like Labovitch, you seem to live in a world where Sisu will own us forever more. What will happen when they sell? How long will it take/will they give it to make a profit?

You're right though, it doesn't make sense, although it would if for some reason you wanted to artificially inflate the debt of the club.

When they sell, they sell the shares in the companies. As a whole package.
The debts gives them option. Before the administration the debt gave them protection.
It's not rocket science for the financially educated, but can be difficult to understand for most of us.

 

[Godiva]

The Group has made a loss, interest has been paid out. What are these refunds you suggest?

I think I remember OSB said the interests were being accrued - not actually paid out?
But in any case the situation has now changed a bit as 'our bank' (ARVO) is now the sole creditor in the club (Otium). If ARVO is paid out interest that money is coming back from ARVO as either new loans or new equity. That doesn't make sense. Instead they can accrue the interests - or add it to the loans. When we get into profit they can take out money either as interest or as dividends whatever suits them.

 

[Grendel]

Can you confirm this isn't a "threat"? It can read a bit dodgy.

As for threats I think you should look at some of West End Agro's charming posts

 

[dongonzalos]

I think I remember OSB said the interests were being accrued - not actually paid out?
But in any case the situation has now changed a bit as 'our bank' (ARVO) is now the sole creditor in the club (Otium). If ARVO is paid out interest that money is coming back from ARVO as either new loans or new equity. That doesn't make sense. Instead they can accrue the interests - or add it to the loans. When we get into profit they can take out money either as interest or as dividends whatever suits them.

I was under the impression we pay ARVO around 1.5 million on 10 million (loan)

I am guessing we will need another 5 million from them to cover next year?

 

[dongonzalos]

When they sell, they sell the shares in the companies. As a whole package.
The debts gives them option. Before the administration the debt gave them protection.
It's not rocket science for the financially educated, but can be difficult to understand for most of us.

75 million worth of profit for their investors to get their money back

Or 100 years plus to try and chip away at it year by year

How many investors do you know prepared to wait over 100 years

 

[Rusty Trombone]

I think I remember OSB said the interests were being accrued - not actually paid out?
But in any case the situation has now changed a bit as 'our bank' (ARVO) is now the sole creditor in the club (Otium). If ARVO is paid out interest that money is coming back from ARVO as either new loans or new equity. That doesn't make sense. Instead they can accrue the interests - or add it to the loans. When we get into profit they can take out money either as interest or as dividends whatever suits them.

Some of the interest has been accrued, but much of it has been paid out. I estimate about £500k, but I haven't seen the cashflow statement.

If accounts talk wasn't boring everyone to tears then I would ask what makes you think ARVO is the only creditor, but I think I'll leave it there.

 

[The Gentleman]

Say you own three companies. One company owns the other two. How richer or how poorer would you be if you let one company pay a rent or an interest to the other company?

But the club will not benefit, which ever way you want to spin who will pay what, you can bet your bottom dollar that we will be paying rather than receiving. Why do you seem intent on proving that Sisu will be giving us some sort of decent deal? We have only ever suffered at the hands of Sisu, what will change if we get to appear to own our stadium?

 

[The Gentleman]

I think I remember OSB said the interests were being accrued - not actually paid out?
But in any case the situation has now changed a bit as 'our bank' (ARVO) is now the sole creditor in the club (Otium). If ARVO is paid out interest that money is coming back from ARVO as either new loans or new equity. That doesn't make sense. Instead they can accrue the interests - or add it to the loans. When we get into profit they can take out money either as interest or as dividends whatever suits them.

Your last line is gold, "when we get into profit". What decade do you think that is likely to be?

 

[Godiva]

But the club will not benefit, which ever way you want to spin who will pay what, you can bet your bottom dollar that we will be paying rather than receiving. Why do you seem intent on proving that Sisu will be giving us some sort of decent deal? We have only ever suffered at the hands of Sisu, what will change if we get to appear to own our stadium?

No matter who owns the club - unless it's a sugar daddy - will seek some sort of return of their investments. They have so far injected £40m into the club, at some point they will either realize a loss and sell to someone else seeking a return from his investment or they will retrieve a return from either interests or dividends. The latter can only happen if the club is profitable.

 

[Godiva]

Your last line is gold, "when we get into profit". What decade do you think that is likely to be?

Well, I hope soon as only then will the club be sustainable. But of course it requires the club and stadium is owned by the same group.
You seem to hope it will never happen - or am I wrong?

 

[dongonzalos]

Well, I hope soon as only then will the club be sustainable. But of course it requires the club and stadium is owned by the same group.
You seem to hope it will never happen - or am I wrong?

Unfortunately

I think the main aim is compensation and an attempt to distress ACL.

A new stadium has no realistic financial case so it will not happen.

 

[The Gentleman]

No matter who owns the club - unless it's a sugar daddy - will seek some sort of return of their investments. They have so far injected £40m into the club, at some point they will either realize a loss and sell to someone else seeking a return from his investment or they will retrieve a return from either interests or dividends. The latter can only happen if the club is profitable.

And when do you see the club being profitable? bearing in mind where we play, where we are likely to play for the foreseeable future, what crowds are now and what they are likely to be if Sixfields continues, what the recent accounts showed us and the fact that we have been going backwards for more than 10 years and the fact that we have crap owners. Lastly, who else would take us on in our current predicament?

 

[Godiva]

And when do you see the club being profitable? bearing in mind where we play, where we are likely to play for the foreseeable future, what crowds are now and what they are likely to be if Sixfields continues, what the recent accounts showed us and the fact that we have been going backwards for more than 10 years and the fact that we have crap owners. Lastly, who else would take us on in our current predicament?

Not for me to predict - ask the people with the spread sheets. I can hope it happens soon if the club get to buy ACL, but I was told yesterday that 'the majority' of fans do not want that. So no pressure on the CCC to bring the club home. Then there's the chance - 'the majority' would say risk - that sisu wins the JR and gain some leverage that forces the CCC to negotiate a sale. Finally there's the long term solution where the club have to build its own stadium.

 

[The Gentleman]

Well, I hope soon as only then will the club be sustainable. But of course it requires the club and stadium is owned by the same group.
You seem to hope it will never happen - or am I wrong?

I have already said I would like the club to be masters of our own destiny. I'll ignore the Grendel style of trying to put words in mouths again. I hope we would own our ground tomorrow, the problem is the only option is the Ricoh and for some reason our current owners seem to have forgotten how to make an offer for something, or even create a dialogue with the party they are hoping to buy from. The only logical route at present based on the fact that Sisu are not going to play ball in giving a fair price is to rent until such time the JR and subsequent appeals are finished. Unless of course we can squat at the Ricoh. Do you think that the club could be sustainable under a a more reasonable rental deal with access to revenues?

 

[Godiva]

I have already said I would like the club to be masters of our own destiny. I'll ignore the Grendel style of trying to put words in mouths again. I hope we would own our ground tomorrow, the problem is the only option is the Ricoh and for some reason our current owners seem to have forgotten how to make an offer for something, or even create a dialogue with the party they are hoping to buy from. The only logical route at present based on the fact that Sisu are not going to play ball in giving a fair price is to rent until such time the JR and subsequent appeals are finished. Unless of course we can squat at the Ricoh. Do you think that the club could be sustainable under a a more reasonable rental deal with access to revenues?

I don't think a rental agreement is ever going to happen unless the CCC and Higgs agree HOT to sell at the price found by two independent valuations.
And no, long term we will never be able to control our own destiny with a rent deal at the Ricoh. We could maybe get access to some F/B revenue but that wouldn't get us anywhere. We could really use the total ACL revenue of £13m - that would make us competitive in FFP terms.

I am off to bed now.

 

[Astute]

I don't think a rental agreement is ever going to happen unless the CCC and Higgs agree HOT to sell at the price found by two independent valuations.
And no, long term we will never be able to control our own destiny with a rent deal at the Ricoh. We could maybe get access to some F/B revenue but that wouldn't get us anywhere. We could really use the total ACL revenue of £13m - that would make us competitive in FFP terms.

I am off to bed now.

We could use the total ACL revenue?

Is that what you really think it is all about? Why would they suddenly start to think and do what is best for our club?

We all know it all depends on the JR. Whichever way it goes it don't mean SISU get the Ricoh. Can anyone see a new stadium being built? I don't even think the FL can see one being built now. Only visible plans. Like a few pictures. The finances don't work out. Labo stuttered into silence when asked about the finances.

SISU are the ones that say they don't trust CCC. But the vast majority of us agree that it should be the other way round. That was a comment like many comments have been made to buy them time until the JR. That will be their last chance of engineering a sale of the Ricoh on the cheap.

New stadium? Don't think so.

Get the Ricoh on the cheap? Don't think so.

Stay in Northampton? Only for a limited time.

That will leave SISU to have to do what they hate doing. Negotiate. Not just on their terms. A decent rent level over a long period. Otherwise it will be throwing good money after bad. At least our club could then be put into profit before fees. That means in a position to be sold.

 

[stupot07]

How many fans took part in that poll?

Just over 1500, which according to survey system is a large enough sample to give you 95% confidence level and answers witting +/-2.5% for a population of 800k (~cov and warks).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[shmmeee]

I don't think a rental agreement is ever going to happen unless the CCC and Higgs agree HOT to sell at the price found by two independent valuations.
And no, long term we will never be able to control our own destiny with a rent deal at the Ricoh. We could maybe get access to some F/B revenue but that wouldn't get us anywhere. We could really use the total ACL revenue of £13m - that would make us competitive in FFP terms.

I am off to bed now.

"Control our destiny" FFS is this football or Lord of the Rings?

You used to be a reasonable poster, but now your full of the fuzzy, apple pie crap that means nothing. Why wouldn't revenues (that apparently are the real issue here) "get us anywhere"? How would being locked into a large mortgage put us "in control of our destiny"?

You can't just state stuff and leave it as that. Neither can you just throw your hands up and shout "that's for the bean counters" when the massive hole in your thinking is shown up.

The entire argument is intellectually bankrupt and the fact that you can't even begin to explain your position should tell you that.

 

[sky blue john]

I am interested to know if ccfc will be paying the loan + loan interest along with rent to play in the new stadium ?

 

[spider_ricoh]

With everything you post on here there is zero evidence you are a fan anyway - you clearly have a love in with ACL though.

How about the day I stood with 4k other Cov fans at the Valley watching us apparently sinking to relegation with a pitiful performance just to be saved by the width of a post?

Or travelling half way across the country and spending an afternoon in the pouring rain and watching us surrender to Bristol City in a game that virtually condemned us to relegation?

Or spending of day of my life watching huff and puff to a 1-1 draw at Yeovil

Or traipsing half way across the country the other way to watch a disgraceful performance under Dowie at Norwich 0-2

Or getting to Brentford on a weeknight to see us collapse in the last minute?

Or going to Leyton Orient away twice this season?

Or watching us get thrashed on a week night at Millwall and then abused by their fans on the train home?

Or spending a day of my life watching us get destroyed 4-0 by fecking Walsall?


I actually do all of these things because I love ACL and have no regard for CCFC at all ... you idiot