Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (43 Viewers)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

That’s not really on the table though is it? They will probably cede the Donbas and Luhansk. Unless NATO directly intervenes, which it won’t, Ukraine doesn’t look likely to eject the Russian occupation.

The only bet Ukraine has is if the Russian Federation collapses in a similar fashion to how the USSR did. Which, it may happen as no one expected the speed of which the USSR collapsed, but is it likely? Probably not. In any case, how long could Ukraine last without military aid? Again, probably not very long.

These are pragmatic considerations that were deferred by the last US administration. There was a moment when Russia probably could’ve been defeated and the difficult decisions to escalate delivery of high-tech weaponry as well as allowing the use of said weapons for offensive purposes were delayed right until the end of the presidency.

Besides, we don’t know any details about the peace talks so it’s all conjecture atm.

It's not on the table...yet. If they cede those areas, Putin will come back in for more later on.

The collapse of the USSR had a series of events that ultimately led to it, one of which was Chernobyl. People began questioning and that enabled separatists to get more support.

Maybe that could happen with Russia not having succeeded in their objectives in Ukraine and many young men being forced to fight and die. Even with Putin's control over what Russians see and hear they could not help but question why so many are being called up and are dying if it is going smoothly, especially as he said they would be welcomed to get rid of nazi oppressors.

But the major difference is the difference in the leader's personality. Putin is a callous, sadistic, psychopath and he would crack down on any dissent brutally. If anything of that nature were to happen it would have to be a big, quick and co-ordinated uprising and even if enough people could be convinced I just can't see it happening before he sends in the troops and secret services to quash it. In reality it would probably need top military people to be in on it.

The only other possibility is a major catastrophe like Chernobyl but again with the control of the media it would undoubtedly be spun as the work of Ukraine and the west.

 

---

[Grendel]

It's not on the table...yet. If they cede those areas, Putin will come back in for more later on.

The collapse of the USSR had a series of events that ultimately led to it, one of which was Chernobyl. People began questioning and that enabled separatists to get more support.

Maybe that could happen with Russia not having succeeded in their objectives in Ukraine and many young men being forced to fight and die. Even with Putin's control over what Russians see and hear they could not help but question why so many are being called up and are dying if it is going smoothly, especially as he said they would be welcomed to get rid of nazi oppressors.

But the major difference is the difference in the leader's personality. Putin is a callous, sadistic, psychopath and he would crack down on any dissent brutally. If anything of that nature were to happen it would have to be a big, quick and co-ordinated uprising and even if enough people could be convinced I just can't see it happening before he sends in the troops and secret services to quash it. In reality it would probably need top military people to be in on it.

The only other possibility is a major catastrophe like Chernobyl but again with the control of the media it would undoubtedly be spun as the work of Ukraine and the west.

You do realise Gorbachev is despised in Russia and that the demise of the Soviet Union is seen as a dark day by most of Russia?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why would Russia agree to those terms?

Because in exchange it's gaining roughly 20% of Ukraine plus immunity from paying reparations or facing any accountability for war crimes. Otherwise, what exactly is Russia conceding in the process?

We have heard a lot about 'compromises' that have to be made. Why is the expectation that Ukraine has to make all the concessions and Russia makes zero in return?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

How would it be agreed?

Why has Russia not attacked a NATO state since its inception?

 

[skybluetony176]

the demise of the Soviet Union is seen as a dark day by most of Russia?

What are you basing that on exactly? Other than your favourite Putins essay that’s about as accurate as the dressed up dossier on weapons of mass destruction. It’s hardly like there’s freedom of speech in Russia to say otherwise is there. Even then polling had nostalgia for the USSR days lower than 50% as recently as 2021.

What’s your next insight? Kim Jong Un is definitely the most popular leader anywhere in the world in the history of the world because North Korea state media reported it. Maybe Omar Aladeen as well as being the supreme leader of Wadiya also ran the 100 mts in 8.6 seconds to set a new world record because you saw a documentary on it.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Because in exchange it's gaining roughly 20% of Ukraine plus immunity from paying reparations or facing any accountability for war crimes. Otherwise, what exactly is Russia conceding in the process?

We have heard a lot about 'compromises' that have to be made. Why is the expectation that Ukraine has to make all the concessions and Russia makes zero in return?

I can’t debate an unknown because it’s not clear what the concessions are.

What does Russia have to concede? Ukraine occupies a small area in the Kursk region whilst, as you say, Russia occupies 20% of Ukraine. Unlike Ukraine, Russia isn’t reliant on foreign aid to prosecute its war.

The only thing going for Ukraine is that if it stretch out a bloody stalemate, it could possibly lead to the collapse of the Putin regime but that’s that a remote possibility.

I agree with your principles and would rejoice the day Putin’s regime collapses. You have to accept the cold hard fact that there isn’t the political will to fight Russia and the window of opportunity to give Ukraine the tools to win the war has passed. Russia, by contrast, actually is willing to fight NATO over Ukraine.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I can’t debate an unknown because it’s not clear what the concessions are.

What does Russia have to concede? Ukraine occupies a small area in the Kursk region whilst, as you say, Russia occupies 20% of Ukraine. Unlike Ukraine, Russia isn’t reliant on foreign aid to prosecute its war.

The only thing going for Ukraine is that if it stretch out a bloody stalemate, it could possibly lead to the collapse of the Putin regime but that’s that a remote possibility.

I agree with your principles and would rejoice the day Putin’s regime collapses. You have to accept the cold hard fact that there isn’t the political will to fight Russia and the window of opportunity to give Ukraine the tools to win the war has passed. Russia, by contrast, actually is willing to fight NATO over Ukraine.

I've said this before, but once again: my suggestion of conceding a fifth of Ukraine and reparations in exchange for NATO membership is a very long way from what I actually want to happen. If Russia is willing to make zero concessions, and the US goes along with that, ultimately it will just go back in for more after rearming.

Allowing the rest of Ukraine into NATO is the best safeguard you can put in place. There would also ultimately be Georgia and Moldova next in line to be wiped off the map otherwise.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I've said this before, but once again: my suggestion of conceding a fifth of Ukraine and reparations in exchange for NATO membership is a very long way from what I actually want to happen. If Russia is willing to make zero concessions, and the US goes along with that, ultimately it will just go back in for more after rearming.

Allowing the rest of Ukraine into NATO is the best safeguard you can put in place. There would also ultimately be Georgia and Moldova next in line to be wiped off the map otherwise.

Why don’t you wait and see what the agreement is, if there even is one before getting outraged over a complete hypothetical situation?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why don’t you wait and see what the agreement is, if there even is one before getting outraged over a complete hypothetical situation?

No outrage here. Though it is a bit tedious of seeing comments to the effect of 'you want the killing and bloodshed to continue' and 'you're disappointed that the killing will stop' just because of concerns over how permanent any peace agreement will be without any safeguards.

 

[SBT]

No outrage here. Though it is a bit tedious of seeing comments to the effect of 'you want the killing and bloodshed to continue' and 'you're disappointed that the killing will stop' just because of concerns over how permanent any peace agreement will be without any safeguards.

The people who are supposedly most in favour of a negotiated outcome seem to now be outraged at the idea that any negotiations actually take place.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No outrage here. Though it is a bit tedious of seeing comments to the effect of 'you want the killing and bloodshed to continue' and 'you're disappointed that the killing will stop' just because of concerns over how permanent any peace agreement will be without any safeguards.

It’s all well and good saying that. Ultimately, any safeguards have to backed up by military force and there just isn’t the political will to enforce that.

 

[Otis]

Trump is saying "Ukraine started it."

What does he mean in saying that? Or is that just what the Russian side are telling him?

 

[PVA]

Trump is saying "Ukraine started it."

What does he mean in saying that? Or is that just what the Russian side are telling him?

He'll parrot whatever Putin tells him.

Putin knows, like the rest of us, what a narcissist Trump is. And that if he tells him how big and strong he is, how much smarter than Obama and Biden he is, Trump will lap that up and think Putin is a great guy, and then just repeat whatever Vlad tells him.

 

[PVA]

I mean honestly what the fuck is this.

We're supposed to be happy this guy is leading the 'peace' talks? Anyone thinking these peace talks are a great thing need to watch this.

 

[Sick Boy]

I mean honestly what the fuck is this.

We're supposed to be happy this guy is leading the 'peace' talks? Anyone thinking these peace talks are a great thing need to watch this.

It's the USA...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Trump is saying "Ukraine started it."

What does he mean in saying that? Or is that just what the Russian side are telling him?

It means Trump’s been reading too much SBT

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

He'll parrot whatever Putin tells him.

Putin knows, like the rest of us, what a narcissist Trump is. And that if he tells him how big and strong he is, how much smarter than Obama and Biden he is, Trump will lap that up and think Putin is a great guy, and then just repeat whatever Vlad tells him.

Absolute bollocks from ‘Pva’ once again, trump is much more influential than Putin. He’ll do what trump says

 

[Grendel]

It's the USA...

Indeed. One of the negotiators on the Russian side behind the scenes is a former Goldman sachs banker and is talking how to get US companies more trade in Russia.

 

[PVA]

Absolute bollocks from ‘Pva’ once again, trump is much more influential than Putin. He’ll do what trump says

The absolute state of you.

Trump is already doing what Putin tells him, it's right there in black and white.

Do you agree with him that Ukraine started it?

 

[PVA]

It's the USA...

What is that supposed to mean?

The USA wasn't saying Ukraine started the war a few weeks ago.

I just can't understand how you and others think this 'peace' deal is a good thing when the guy leading it is in bed with Putin.

 

[Grendel]

The absolute state of you.

Trump is already doing what Putin tells him, it's right there in black and white.

Do you agree with him that Ukraine started it?

Trump sees an investment deal to be had and won’t do anything - there is no advantage in “doing what Putin tells him” - he sees a land of opportunity to build on and a Russia keen to engage with the US in future trade prospects

Ukraine is a pointless blob on the map.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What is that supposed to mean?

The USA wasn't saying Ukraine started the war a few weeks ago.

I just can't understand how you and others think this 'peace' deal is a good thing when the guy leading it is in bed with Putin.

Orange man says jump they say how high

 

[PVA]

Trump sees an investment deal to be had and won’t do anything - there is no advantage in “doing what Putin tells him” - he sees a land of opportunity to build on and a Russia keen to engage with the US in future trade prospects

Ukraine is a pointless blob on the map.

You keep banging on about these investment deals and rebuilding of Ukraine as if it's something only Trump was genius enough to think of when it's been on the table for a long time and such deals were signed under Biden.

 

[Grendel]

Orange man says jump they say how high

Which is typical US policy

 

[PVA]

Orange man says jump they say how high

For people like Dim26 yeah definitely.

But people like SB who I really don't think is a Trump supporter, I don't see how this can be viewed as a good thing.

 

[Grendel]

You keep banging on about these investment deals and rebuilding of Ukraine as if it's something only Trump was genius enough to think of when it's been on the table for a long time and such deals were signed under Biden.

Lol why challenge @Sick Boy ”it’s the US” statement then?

Trump is just far more overt. He will invest with Russia as well on his and the US terms

 

[Otis]

Trump sees an investment deal to be had and won’t do anything - there is no advantage in “doing what Putin tells him” - he sees a land of opportunity to build on and a Russia keen to engage with the US in future trade prospects

Ukraine is a pointless blob on the map.

I find that incredibly sad. But probably true

Everything is about money and power.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

For people like Dim26 yeah definitely.

But people like SB who I really don't think is a Trump supporter, I don't see how this can be viewed as a good thing.

Wow ‘dim’ how childish, you learn that off the weirdo @SkyBlueCharlie9

Cry more haha, trump has you on toast

 

[PVA]

Lol why challenge @Sick Boy ”it’s the US” statement then?

Trump is just far more overt. He will invest with Russia as well on his and the US terms

I'm challenging him on why he thinks a Trump-led peace deal is a good thing, particularly after those comments about Ukraine starting it which clearly show who's side he is on (if it were in any doubt).

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Hilarious how sad your life is @PVA

Getting rattled on a football forum talking about Donald trump, sad guy…..he’ll get us peace and you’ll be angry

 

[PVA]

Wow ‘dim’ how childish, you learn that off the weirdo @SkyBlueCharlie9

Cry more haha, trump has you on toast

Tell me Dim, does the number in your username refer to your IQ or the number of times you were dropped on your head as a baby?

 

[SBT]

It does seem odd that after years of being told that disingenuous, self-interested American foreign policy was the reason behind the war’s continuation, we’ve now arrived at the point where disingenuous, self-interested American foreign policy can now not only stop the war, but ensure no killing never happens in the region again. A truly incredible turnaround.

 

[Grendel]

I find that incredibly sad. But probably true

Everything is about money and power.

It always has been.

For years it’s been obvious that Ukraine could never win this conflict.

The Biden administrations “aid” was mostly used to boost production in republican states by giving old ammunition and building new to boost the US economy

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Tell me Dim, does the number in your username refer to your IQ or the number of times you were dropped on your head as a baby?

Woooooowwwww, what a great insult. Fuck me this forum is embarrassing, no wonder everyone laughs at it

 

[PVA]

It does seem odd that after years of being told that disingenuous, self-interested American foreign policy was the reason behind the war’s continuation, we’ve now arrived at the point where disingenuous, self-interested American foreign policy can now not only stop the war, but ensure no killing never happens in the region again. A truly incredible turnaround.

Some absolutely world class mental gymnastics on display for sure.