Ukip (2 Viewers)

[Houdi]

A sloppy, scattergun and partisan response filled with digressions. I'll be as succinct as I can.



A cherry-picked statistic that gleefully overlooks any kind of social, economic or political context. How about growth?



The Darling plan. One opposed by Ed Balls. Labour disagrees. They cannot all be shoved into one box.



Your salary is my salary. We have to allow a portion of our money to be spent otherwise the economy would collapse like a house of cards. This is economics 101.



"My" chief secretary? Weak.



The Greece situation is complex. To capsulate it as evil, overspending socialism is lazy and wrong.

As fun as it was taking that detour, let's get back to the original discussion. Do you think Osborne's austerity plan is working?

The Darling plan?? No I'm talking about your manifesto commitment.
Let's go back to the 1970's you know the last Labour government pre Blair,when the socialists wrecked the economy to such an extent,that it was forced to cap in hand to IMF for a loan to save the country from national bankruptcy.You have to wonder why they didn't take your sage advice of borrowing even more to invest to grow the economy to pay down blah blah blah.
It is truly staggering that people like you are so willing to sacrifice the young people in countries like Spain,Greece,Portugal,who face a desperate future for the utter folly of a corrupt political elite.
Do I think Osborne austerity plan is working,well I didn't vote for them,but you could equally ask the question do you think Hollande's plan in France is working.The scale of debt left by Brown was so huge it is hard to see how any recovery can succeed in the short term.Whether they are clearing up the mess is I agree is up for debate,but never forget who actually created the mess.Issuing article 50 of the Lisbon treaty would be a start,saving the country about 18 billion a year to start with,cancelling the overseas aid budget would save circa 12 billion,that would be a start. Use the money to increase personal allowance for the low paid,making work pay and helping low income families.Scrap Miliband 's daft climate change levy,again to help poorer families with crippling energy bills,and also helping British firms better compete in the global market place.
The one thing we can all be confident is,that following months will be met with a continuing and worrsening crisis in the Eurozone.You can certainly put money on that.Oh news this morning from the National Institute of Economic Research that output in the UK rose by 0.8% between Feb and Apr,and that manufacturing output rose by 1.1% in March,some signs the economy is recovering albeit very slowly.Still far better than Greece which has been in recession for 6 straight years,and whose economy will probably shrink by about 5-6% this year alone.

 

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[torchomatic]

How did I guess that the baby boomer with the cravat was going to be a UkiP voter? :thinking about:

BBC Question Time good tonight on all these issues.

 

[torchomatic]

The UKiP voter who was worried about "immigration and other stuff".

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Do I think Osborne austerity plan is working,well I didn't vote for them,but you could equally ask the question do you think Hollande's plan in France is working.

Exactly what do you think Hollande's plan is (and don't say "well, he's socialist, so a socialist plan")? And if you aren't for austerity and aren't for a stimulus, exactly what is your solution?

The scale of debt left by Brown was so huge it is hard to see how any recovery can succeed in the short term.

The debt left by the Tories in 1997 was 42% of GDP. Labour had reduced it to 35% of GDP by the global financial crisis. What's more, Labour left an economy that was growing and reducing the deficit; the switch to austerity has resulted in a growing deficit and higher borrowing.

Whether they are clearing up the mess is I agree is up for debate,but never forget who actually created the mess.

It is not up for debate: they are categorically failing to "clear up the mess", instead worsening the situation.

The mess itself was created by a conspiracy of greed involving investment banks, credit rating agencies, financial regulators, and even rightwing economists for hire. I recommend watching the documentary Inside Job if you wish to understand the cause of today's problems.

Issuing article 50 of the Lisbon treaty would be a start,saving the country about 18 billion a year to start with,cancelling the overseas aid budget would save circa 12 billion,that would be a start.

Impartial fact-checkers say withdrawal from the EU would, at best, have a break-even economic impact; it is not the panacea you are looking for. As for foreign aid, it is naive to think it is a charitable blank cheque; more often than not, it's a business transaction or investment. The UK is one of the richest countries in the world ... it is moral and economic folly to pull the plug on our ties with developing countries.

Oh news this morning from the National Institute of Economic Research that output in the UK rose by 0.8% between Feb and Apr,and that manufacturing output rose by 1.1% in March,some signs the economy is recovering albeit very slowly.Still far better than Greece which has been in recession for 6 straight years,and whose economy will probably shrink by about 5-6% this year alone.

I am glad that the economy is showing any signs of life, but we have seen this kind of microscopic cause for hope for too long. GDP has been flatlining for years. If it gets significantly better by the time of the 2015 election, I'll eat the proverbial hat. Oh, and the UK and Greece cannot be compared in any meaningful way. Only Osborne does that for dirty political point scoring.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Not just immigration but illegal immigration is having a massive effect on housing, jobs and the NHS in this country to name just three.

Do you have a hard number for how much they are costing the country?

Of course immigration is an issue that needs to be looked at. Also, we need to look at the reasons why so many people choose to come to Britain bypassing many other EU countries on the way. Is it because we are such a wonderful country to live in or is it the access they have to such things as free education, health care etc.

You have answered your own question there. It should not be a cause of concern though - it is surely better to be a country that people aspire to come to rather than one people wish to escape. Immigration, if anything, is a signpost for our wealth and success.

Personally, I think immigration is a good thing but it does need tightening up. The amount of overseas students for example who come here on the pretence of studying then just "disappear" is shocking.

Overseas students have brought in billions for the exchequer; a reactionary cap on international student visas will hurt the country. But do you have a number for how many "disappear" and what they end up costing the country?

Same with people claiming to be 15 or under as it easier to get access to benefits etc. who are clearly not but have no identification to prove otherwise.

Numbers?

 

[LastGarrison]

Do you have a hard number for how much they are costing the country?



You have answered your own question there. It should not be a cause of concern though - it is surely better to be a country that people aspire to come to rather than one people wish to escape. Immigration, if anything, is a signpost for our wealth and success.



Overseas students have brought in billions for the exchequer; a reactionary cap on international student visas will hurt the country. But do you have a number for how many "disappear" and what they end up costing the country?



Numbers?

Are you basically saying then that you do not believe illegal immigration is not having any effect on this country?

In terms of the students having been involved in both the FE and HE sector on or off for a number of years I am fully aware (although do not have the definitive numbers to hand) that there is a large number of students that have gone missing.

So much so that the UKBA have had to revamp its training to Universities assessing International Students' eligibility as well as revoking the London Mets licence to take on International Students although this has now been given back on a probationary basis. There will also be now much more stringent checks made by the UKBA.

We will have to disagree that you do not think it is a cause for concern that people wish to get to our country, by any means, to take advantage of the benefits they can get here. I am not sure how that benefits our country?

I know I've only answered specific parts of your post but I'm at work and will answer fully later.

 

[Houdi]

Exactly what do you think Hollande's plan is (and don't say "well, he's socialist, so a socialist plan")? And if you aren't for austerity and aren't for a stimulus, exactly what is your solution?



The debt left by the Tories in 1997 was 42% of GDP. Labour had reduced it to 35% of GDP by the global financial crisis. What's more, Labour left an economy that was growing and reducing the deficit; the switch to austerity has resulted in a growing deficit and higher borrowing.



It is not up for debate: they are categorically failing to "clear up the mess", instead worsening the situation.

The mess itself was created by a conspiracy of greed involving investment banks, credit rating agencies, financial regulators, and even rightwing economists for hire. I recommend watching the documentary Inside Job if you wish to understand the cause of today's problems.



Impartial fact-checkers say withdrawal from the EU would, at best, have a break-even economic impact; it is not the panacea you are looking for. As for foreign aid, it is naive to think it is a charitable blank cheque; more often than not, it's a business transaction or investment. The UK is one of the richest countries in the world ... it is moral and economic folly to pull the plug on our ties with developing countries.



I am glad that the economy is showing any signs of life, but we have seen this kind of microscopic cause for hope for too long. GDP has been flatlining for years. If it gets significantly better by the time of the 2015 election, I'll eat the proverbial hat. Oh, and the UK and Greece cannot be compared in any meaningful way. Only Osborne does that for dirty political point scoring.

Convenient you choose to ignore Labour's record in the 1970's.As you did with Labour's awful record on unemployment.Or ignore it's illegal wars based on dodgy dossiers,its appalling record at Mid Staffs leaving over 1200 people dead,its failed IT project in the NHS that cost the country billions.
Labour was in power for 13 years,not 13 weeks yet none of the problems are their fault apparently.Who intoduced the FSA,and took away the B of Eng controls of the banks,who presided over the disastrous Lloyds/HBos taakeover,who help fuel the illusory debt fuelled boom.There is not a problem in life that the left think can't be cured by spending usually other people's money.Debt interest is accruing at a rate of £1600 per second,every second.
Impartial fact checkers were telling us the Euro would be a success.I wonder what rate of unemployment in eurozone countries are you willing to accept,how bad does it actually have to get?In an age of austerity how do you justify the EU funding 3 Parliaments,18 plus years in which the EU own internal auditors,have refused to sign of its accounts.The French and the Dutch voted down the original Lisbon treaty the only countries actually allowed a vote,the Eu just ignored public opinions,redrafted the treaty and then bypassed public opinion and passed it anyway.Democracy in true EU style.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Are you basically saying then that you do not believe illegal immigration is not having any effect on this country?

Of course illegal immigration has an effect, but we need to determine how much of an effect and whether it matches the hysteria we're seeing from Ukip. I'm just asking for numbers to justify your fears.

In terms of the students having been involved in both the FE and HE sector on or off for a number of years I am fully aware (although do not have the definitive numbers to hand) that there is a large number of students that have gone missing.

OK. So how much do these undocumented immigrants cost the country?

So much so that the UKBA have had to revamp its training to Universities assessing International Students' eligibility as well as revoking the London Mets licence to take on International Students although this has now been given back on a probationary basis. There will also be now much more stringent checks made by the UKBA.

The number of dodgy students is small enough to be insignificant. But the overreaction to this from the anti-immigration hounds will potentially cost the country a ton of money.

We will have to disagree that you do not think it is a cause for concern that people wish to get to our country, by any means, to take advantage of the benefits they can get here. I am not sure how that benefits our country?

The benefits of our country are the consumers, the wealth, the infrastructure. That is what the vast majority of immigrants seek to exploit, and that can only lead to growth. For example, EU immigrants are far more likely to start a business than UK nationals. What's more, they contribue 30% more in tax bills than they cost the state. And we must do away with this myth that our benefit system is such an attraction; an OECD study put the UK 18th out of 24 European countries in terms of welfare generosity.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Convenient you choose to ignore Labour's record in the 1970's.As you did with Labour's awful record on unemployment.Or ignore it's illegal wars based on dodgy dossiers,its appalling record at Mid Staffs leaving over 1200 people dead,its failed IT project in the NHS that cost the country billions.

I ignored them for a few reasons:

1. They are completely irrelevant to our discussion.
2. You are making partisan attacks based on a hatred of Labour; we cannot have a serious discussion if you think all Labour governments act alike within the same environment. It's a little like the attacks suggesting Labour created a dependent state by shunting millions to disability benefit, without recognising that the it was Margaret Thatcher who pioneered it.
3. You won't find any argument from me on dodgy dossiers or the IT projects; but what the hell do they have to do with the Ukip and the current state of affairs? It is aimless ranting.

Labour was in power for 13 years,not 13 weeks yet none of the problems are their fault apparently.

Says who?

Who intoduced the FSA,and took away the B of Eng controls of the banks,who presided over the disastrous Lloyds/HBos taakeover,who help fuel the illusory debt fuelled boom.There is not a problem in life that the left think can't be cured by spending usually other people's money.Debt interest is accruing at a rate of £1600 per second,every second.

Again - debt does not matter so long as you have growth. It really is that simple. Once the cycle of growth is spinning, the debt gets chipped away. You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of debt.

Impartial fact checkers were telling us the Euro would be a success.I wonder what rate of unemployment in eurozone countries are you willing to accept,how bad does it actually have to get?

Non-sequitur.

In an age of austerity how do you justify the EU funding 3 Parliaments,18 plus years in which the EU own internal auditors,have refused to sign of its accounts.The French and the Dutch voted down the original Lisbon treaty the only countries actually allowed a vote,the Eu just ignored public opinions,redrafted the treaty and then bypassed public opinion and passed it anyway.Democracy in true EU style.

I am not here to justify everything the EU does. Nor Labour. So I'd appreciate it if you stopped hitting that straw man.

 

[LastGarrison]

Of course illegal immigration has an effect, but we need to determine how much of an effect and whether it matches the hysteria we're seeing from Ukip. I'm just asking for numbers to justify your fears.



OK. So how much do these undocumented immigrants cost the country?



The number of dodgy students is small enough to be insignificant. But the overreaction to this from the anti-immigration hounds will potentially cost the country a ton of money.



The benefits of our country are the consumers, the wealth, the infrastructure. That is what the vast majority of immigrants seek to exploit, and that can only lead to growth. For example, EU immigrants are far more likely to start a business than UK nationals. What's more, they contribue 30% more in tax bills than they cost the state. And we must do away with this myth that our benefit system is such an attraction; an OECD study put the UK 18th out of 24 European countries in terms of welfare generosity.

How can you say that these numbers are insignificant if you do not even know them? Perhaps you can provide me with the numbers? Just to allay my fears like.......

My issues, generally, are with illegal immigrants and the fact that they do not put into the system but they do take out. The fact that we do not know how many people are here illegally and when we do find them we do not have a rigourous process to remove them.

You are clearly knowlegable on the situation (a lot more than me) but if you think that everything is hunky dory and can continue as it is I think you may have your head in the sand.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

How can you say that these numbers are insignificant if you do not even know them? Perhaps you can provide me with the numbers? Just to allay my fears like.......

It is telling that the likes of America and Australia have not imposed the restrictions on international students that the UK has. As a result we are seeing less income, fewer people to take on the high-skill jobs where we have a shortage, and we're losing some of the best brains in the world to America and Australia ... brains that could have powered Britain in "the global race".

Line that up alongside the established economic positives that immigrants bring to the economy (30% more in tax; 6% on benefits compared to 16% Brits; billions for education; business and job creators, etc.) Then also consider that overseas students are just one section of overseas immigration, and that the majority will return home or work and contribute in the UK. No hard number for significance is required because it is crystal clear that we our hurting our country more with our overreaction than any illegal immigrants on expired student visas could.

My issues, generally, are with illegal immigrants and the fact that they do not put into the system but they do take out.

That is not a fact. The majority of illegal immigrants work and actually contribute to the treasury. The number of illegal immigrants claiming something for nothing is likely very small; most will either work, go home, or get by. This is a useful link to explain it in greater detail.

Bear in mind, too, that because many illegal immigrants don't have that ease of access to benefits, the chances are that the majority of the money they do make is recycled back into the economy rather than being 'lost' (unlike tax avoidance).

The fact that we do not know how many people are here illegally and when we do find them we do not have a rigourous process to remove them.

That's something for the government of the day to deal with, but it is not the kind of issue we should be turning our country upside-down about.

You are clearly knowlegable on the situation (a lot more than me) but if you think that everything is hunky dory and can continue as it is I think you may have your head in the sand.

I don't think everything is hunky dory - we are rolling backwards and hurting our country with this whole stupid issue. So while we deny the money and brilliant brains of foreign students, the richest continue to quietly stockpile trillions in offshore accounts. Bonkers.

 

[Johnnythespider]

Looking at things from my cynical standpoint, which is the way i look at most things, i have decided that Farage is in it for the glory, and therefore is in fact a bit of a cock, but to be honest i think most of the public servants today are cocks. UKIP if you want to, thespiders not for turning, vive la revolution !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It is telling that the likes of America and Australia have not imposed the restrictions on international students that the UK has. As a result we are seeing less income, fewer people to take on the high-skill jobs where we have a shortage, and we're losing some of the best brains in the world to America and Australia ... brains that could have powered Britain in "the global race".

Line that up alongside the established economic positives that immigrants bring to the economy (30% more in tax; 6% on benefits compared to 16% Brits; billions for education; business and job creators, etc.) Then also consider that overseas students are just one section of overseas immigration, and that the majority will return home or work and contribute in the UK. No hard number for significance is required because it is crystal clear that we our hurting our country more with our overreaction than any illegal immigrants on expired student visas could.



That is not a fact. The majority of illegal immigrants work and actually contribute to the treasury. The number of illegal immigrants claiming something for nothing is likely very small; most will either work, go home, or get by. This is a useful link to explain it in greater detail.

Bear in mind, too, that because many illegal immigrants don't have that ease of access to benefits, the chances are that the majority of the money they do make is recycled back into the economy rather than being 'lost' (unlike tax avoidance).



That's something for the government of the day to deal with, but it is not the kind of issue we should be turning our country upside-down about.



I don't think everything is hunky dory - we are rolling backwards and hurting our country with this whole stupid issue. So while we deny the money and brilliant brains of foreign students, the richest continue to quietly stockpile trillions in offshore accounts. Bonkers.

My university is 20% American but still skint.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

On immigration, my question is: why is there immigration?

It's relatively simple, for a job (why lots of British move to Oz), get a higher wage, better prospects for children (through education etc.), access to healthcare and so on.

In Britain, we have a high minimum wage compared to other EU countries like Poland, Romania and so on, we have amongst the best unis in the world, our education system is generally better than our EU counterparts (not all) and we have a unique NHS, this is why migrants come to Britain, they come to primarily work, not leech off the system as the largely right-wing media will tell you. In the EU, if it were to become more federal could have the opportunity to set a European minimum wage, to have a European NHS, and have a European education. This if it was done, would decrease immigration because no one would necessarily want to leave their home land if they had basic needs, with the EU, we have a great opportunity to promote these values. If we are in Europe or not, immigrants from all over the world will want to live here, it is a good place to live, and if we leave Europe it won't do anything profound on immigration, it was the UK border agency that was mismanaged, that let plenty of illegal immigrants into the country from all over the world, not just Europeans, so Farage is not looking at the bigger picture anyway, nor is he intent on solving the whole problem.

Besides, multiculturalism is a great thing and enriches our society and our country, as well as the benefits economically. Don't let the right-wing media bullshit you.

 

[Tad]

Multiculturalism in theory is a good thing, whether it's working or not, is another matter.

There are down sides to immigration and profound reasons why Multiculturalism can't work. So you can't say everything the media report is bull. Sometimes the problems other countries have ended up being brought here as well. Not all cultures do mix very well as things like beliefs and religion become an issue (Burka's for example - which should be banned in my view). This is stil Britain, and although its great we are so accepting, some rules do need to be put down for the benefit of our own people.

As for the idea of the EU using our ideas of the NHS etc on a European level, hah! The EU couldn't care less about us to be honest. They've already said they're not interested in talking about changing policies to help us, so what does that tell you they think about us? We're one of the biggest financial and trade countries in the world and we get shunned by a bunch of un-elected nobodies. They have no interest in our needs, but they'll quite happliy take our money.