Ukip (3 Viewers)

[Houdi]

Hmmm, interesting this one, there's a lot of hype around UKIP at the minute, but they don't have a single parliamentary seat, I doubt they'll get a single seat in 2015 because pragmatic right voters will vote Tory.

As a socialist, I disagree with UKIP and what they stand for, but, UKIP have a very charismatic leader in Nigel Farage who holds own in debating, he performs well on BBCQT, but, that doesn't mean he's right (as in correct, not side of the political spectrum). After all, Hitler was charismatic, of course I'm not comparing the two. I agree with what I'mARealWizard and what he is saying. What annoys me is that UKIP pose as a party for the 'people', what a lie, they are a rightist party that will favour corporations and the top 1% and do little for the working man, Farage is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a public-school who will no doubt continue the old school tie.

UKIP is a one-issue party, EU membership, and since the death of the milk snatcher, Farage has tried to hijack the image that his party is a Thatcherite party which would attract right voters who are disillusioned with Cameron's quasi Disraeli-Thatcherite regime (a mix of the 2).

Mr Farage is a scaremonger, it isn't the EU that has made this 'open door' immigration policy, it is the incompetence of the UK Border Agency and other related bodies that has contributed to this 'problem', look at France, EU member, yet, has tough immigration laws.

Economically, Osbourne and Farage will scapegoat the EU for economic stagnation, but Germany is prosperous, yet are at the centre of bailing out other countries, I think Osbourne needs to accept austerity is failing for Britain, a more Keynesian policy (spent on worthwhile projects etc.) is needed to promote growth, the UKIP intend to cut more which would no doubt bring suffering on ordinary people. I fear for the NHS' safety in any of the 3 major parties, who have already started privatising the NHS under our noses, but with UKIP, I can't see it surviving.

The Green's are a better vote and I hope they retain and expand their 1 parliamentary seat in 2015.

A vote for UKIP is a wasted vote anyway, there won't be a profound shift in power for the 3 large parties.

The EU is at cross-roads now anyway, it either needs to tighten control of its members and have more influence economic and social policy, or it will simply disintegrate. The EU is starting to fail somewhat since the EU has moved away from its leftist founding principles.

Well you have a socialist President in France,elected on a tax and spend,care to look how that is going.Not sure if you understand that being a member of the EU ,means you can't legally stop the free movement of people from the EU.We simply cannot legally stop people from the poorer regions of the EU.
Your right Farage is not like Hitler,who was a national socialist who is on public record as despising capitalism.
Paradoxically this week the EU Commisioner for home affairs,Cecilia Malmastrome has authorised 86 million to Greece to combat illegal immigration,I wonder if the EU will be labelled as racist as well.
Ukip draws its support from left and right,and it is bizarre that a country wishing to control its borders is somehow considered right wing or racist.Indeed it was only a few years ago pre -Blair that the Labour Party actively campaigned for British withdrawal.
The EU is becoming increasingly unpopular across Europe,even in Germany opinion polls have shown growing support for the return of the Deutchmark.Perversley the more centalised the EU becomes the more nationalistic people across Europe are becoming,it is actually having the opposite effect than was intended.
One thing you can be sure it won't be long before yet another EU member requires a bailout,and don't rule out France from that list .Oh and since you are a supporter of the Green Party I take it you will be going down to Brighton to join ex Green leader MP Caroline Lucas on the picket line to protest about public sector workers have to take pay cuts or lose jobs.And which is the party seeking to impose thse savage pay cuts on ordinary workere,oh look its a Green run council,the only one I believe.

 

---

[Ashdown1]

What annoys me is that UKIP pose as a party for the 'people', what a lie, they are a rightist party that will favour corporations and the top 1% and do little for the working man, Farage is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a public-school who will no doubt continue the old school tie.

I don't mean to patronise, but you will realise in time that all political parties pander to big business and big business rewards the individuals that help them get richer !! Politics and democracy itself has become a farce !!

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What annoys me is that UKIP pose as a party for the 'people', what a lie, they are a rightist party that will favour corporations and the top 1% and do little for the working man, Farage is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a public-school who will no doubt continue the old school tie.

I don't mean to patronise, but you will realise in time that all political parties pander to big business and big business rewards the individuals that help them get richer !! Politics and democracy itself has become a farce !!

I'm well aware, hence I won't vote any of the top 3 parties.

But at least Cameron, Miliband or Clegg put on the show Farage does, he's full of shit, and the bigger their party grows, the more obvious it will become.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Did you see that BNP woman who stood in South Shields?

Most of her party would have been wanting to "send her back to where she came from".

 

[lordsummerisle]

Here she is, Lady Dorothy Macbeth Brookes.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Just out of interest, why do you think that is wrong?

Do our European neighbours have different morals to us? Are their societies based upon principles that are so different to ours?

To be honest, having worked across EMEA in business...I think the overall mentality IS different. Our culture revolves around money & privilege & favour - the more the better. Money is GOD! The sense I got in other countries (to varying degrees) was that money is the main factor...but there is always a mindfulness & more healthy respect of family, people, atmosphere, efficiency, customer service & environment. Until the proverbial hits the fan - then apart from the scandinavians they think & act exactly the same as us.

 

[Darth Robins]

Did you see that BNP woman who stood in South Shields?

Most of her party would have been wanting to "send her back to where she came from".

By the looks of it she's been sunbathing on Mercury, would cost a fair bit to send her back there!

 

[Tad]

Some people are saying they don't think Ukip are a threat. I have to disagree though. They're not just taking votes from one party and they do come across in a much more easier and simple way then the other three. I don't agree about the little Englander mentality either. In fact, that doesn't actually make sense if you apply it to them.

Will be interesting to see what happens anyway.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Some people are saying they don't think Ukip are a threat. I have to disagree though. They're not just taking votes from one party and they do come across in a much more easier and simple way then the other three.

They are not a parliamentary threat. The spin from the right may say that they are draining votes from all three parties, but it is primarily the Conservatives. The Lib Dems and Labour will deploy tactical voting to topple marginal Tory seats which are especially endangered by Ukip candidates. Thus we see their fast and hard turn to the right with the Queen's speech.

I don't agree about the little Englander mentality either. In fact, that doesn't actually make sense if you apply it to them.

Oh it does. People are suffering, they offer the panacea: it's The Other's fault, me ol' mucker. That's Ukip in a nutshell, following in the footsteps of many a fringe party that made good during an economic crisis.

 

[I'mARealWizard]

Can I also add, that my view of UKIP is based upon news reports, twitter feeds ( ), internet sites that I visit and read after living overseas for 3 years.

Because my sources may be biased towards my political leanings, naturally my information may have some bias.

Although that doesn't meant that I don't question it.

 

[Houdi]

They are not a parliamentary threat. The spin from the right may say that they are draining votes from all three parties, but it is primarily the Conservatives. The Lib Dems and Labour will deploy tactical voting to topple marginal Tory seats which are especially endangered by Ukip candidates. Thus we see their fast and hard turn to the right with the Queen's speech.



Oh it does. People are suffering, they offer the panacea: it's The Other's fault, me ol' mucker. That's Ukip in a nutshell, following in the footsteps of many a fringe party that made good during an economic crisis.

Meanwhile back in the real world itv news today are reporting that youth unemployment in Greece has reached a staggering 64.2%,and in Spain it has reached 53%.France has reported 0.1 % negative growth with unemployment heading towards 11%.The EU project is failing big time,yet the political classes are in complete denial.
We were told a few years that not joining the Euro would be disastrous for the UK,now you will struggle to find a single politician who would dare to mention the UK joining.The tide is with Ukip,and events over the coming period will only accelerate that movement.

 

[Tad]

I ask everyone here then. Whats the answer? If you want out of EU etc, who do you turn to?

The other three parties have either lied to us all or use the promise of a EU ref as a way to stay in power (cameron).

 

[Colonel Mustard]

We were told a few years that not joining the Euro would be disastrous for the UK,now you will struggle to find a single politician who would dare to mention the UK joining.

The UK never joined the euro, so why protest something that didn't happen?

The main issue with the euro is the integration shortfall. When Europe becomes a federation, which will happen sooner rather than later, the UK (or perhaps England & Wales by that time) will be perched on the outside.

The tide is with Ukip,and events over the coming period will only accelerate that movement.

That would mean continuing to shoot ourselves in the foot with reactionary policies, placing sanctions on various areas of immigration (who provide a positive boost to the economy) whilst continuing to ignore the real issues, from the discredited austerity theory to tax avoidance.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I ask everyone here then. Whats the answer? If you want out of EU etc, who do you turn to?

Continue pushing Ukip until they shove the Tories into a commitment for a referendum. We may be on the brink of that given Cameron's spinelessness. Then vote out. Then live with the consequences.

The other three parties have either lied to us all or use the promise of a EU ref as a way to stay in power (cameron).

Sadly there is no way to hold politicians accountable for breaking promises. I think of the parents who voted Lib Dem on the basis of saving money for their kids' tuition. That broken promise will have cost them thousands of pounds. Criminal actions.

 

[lordsummerisle]

UKIP are just the pink gin and golf-club wing of the BNP.

 

[Houdi]

The UK never joined the euro, so why protest something that didn't happen?

The main issue with the euro is the integration shortfall. When Europe becomes a federation, which will happen sooner rather than later, the UK (or perhaps England & Wales by that time) will be perched on the outside.



That would mean continuing to shoot ourselves in the foot with reactionary policies, placing sanctions on various areas of immigration (who provide a positive boost to the economy) whilst continuing to ignore the real issues, from the discredited austerity theory to tax avoidance.

Yes we never joined the euro,but the mainstream view,was that eventual membership was both inevitable and desirable.Now it's a subject which even the euro federalist dare not even mention.The Euro has been an unmitigated disaster,having a country like Germany in a common currency with countries like Greece/Spain was always going to be an utter disaster.These countries didn't even reach economic criteria laid down by the EU itself,it was always going to end in tears.The ERM disaster clearly showed the madness of fixed exchange rates,on leaving the ERM the British economy went on a sustained period of growth.
In 2012 Germany had a net migration of over 1 million from Southern Europe,resulting in a greater supply of labour,driving down labour costs,making Germany even more competitive with its southern neighbours,thus making the competitive problems even worse.Even the Labour Party are falling over themselves in an attempt to toughen up their immigration policies,so Farage may not be in government,but maybe he is in power.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Voting in the UK under the current electoral system is much like Richards Shaws caretaker manangement spell......completely pointless.

 

[torchomatic]

It's a party for people who tend to start sentences "I'm not being racist but...."

UKIP are just the pink gin and golf-club wing of the BNP.

 

[Tad]

It's a party for people who tend to start sentences "I'm not being racist but...."

Care to back that up? I see no evidence of them being racist.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

UKiP are an acceptable face of xenophobia which in turn is a more acceptable face of racism.

Their policies are all about sending the country back to what they perceive as its golden era (1950s). It may well have been a golden era for white middle aged, middle class, able bodied men, but not for a lot of people. They are a party for people who don’t think the Tories are right wing enough.

One of their candidates even called for the compulsory abortion of disabled children. OK, so not all of them will feel the same, but for a candidate to feel “comfortable” saying something like that should really set the alarm bells ringing. However, they are all for taking out disabled children from mainstream schooling. They want to farm them out to special schools. Out of sight and all that.

I’m more than happy for UKiP wanting to damage and split the Tory vote, but I shudder at the thought of them ever being in power. Thankfully though, I doubt that will ever happen.

You should take a look at their policies. They bask in the luxury of telling us what they’d like to do without actually have to cost and pay for us. As I said in my first paragraph there’s a real “nostalgia” feel about them; a grammar school in every town, repealing the smoking in public places act, cutting red tape and “non jobs” and bizarrely cyclists who would to pay for parking and walking their bikes across busy roundabouts to prevent "unacceptable delays to traffic".

A bunch of ultra conservative little Englanders

One of them got himself in a right old tangle on Radio 5 last week by attempting to argue that "women of child-bearing age" should be banned from the workplace. Even Mad Men has some women in the workplace!


That said, I do approve of their smoking policy. Shame it's cancelled out by everything else.

 

[torchomatic]

Robert Kilroy-Silk (UKIP MEP since 2004) wrote in the Daily Express: “They
[Muslims] are backward and evil and if it is racist to say so… then racist I must be –
and happy and proud, to be so”.

In December 2003, he discussed what he called “bleating blacks and Asians” in
Britain, asking “Why don’t they stop whining and get a life?”4
In the unrest following the Iraq war, Kilroy-Silk also went on record saying that
“the orgy of thieving in Iraq has more to do with the character of the people than
the absence of restraining troops. And to think that good, decent, law-abiding
young British and American men and women laid down their lives to liberate this
thieving mob”.

He believes that “Moslims everywhere behave with equal savagery”.6 And he also
referred to Ireland as “a country peopled by peasants, priests and pixies”.7 Robert
Kilroy-Silk later apologised for this remark.

Discussing Britain’s rise in HIV infections, he wrote “The indigenous population is
not responsible... It is the foreigners that we have to focus on”.

Nigel Farage (UKIP MEP since 1999, leader of the UKIP group of MEPs in the
European Parliament since 2004; former UKIP Chairman, 1998-2000 and cofounder,
UKIP) told former UKIP leader Dr Alan Sked “We will never win the
nigger vote. The nig-nogs will never vote for us”, according to Dr Sked.

Dr Richard North (UKIP’s former Research Director in the European Parliament,
Brussels from 1999-2003) described our Spanish neighbours as “rag-arsed dagos” in
a BBC TV documentary video, The Enemy Within , which UKIP has described as “a
perfect tool for converting the sceptical… and showing at branch meetings”.10
Peter Watson (Chairman, UKIP North Dorset branch) distributed anti-Semitic
messages via e-mail, including one remark that read “Jewish merchant bankers are] responsible for the ills of England”.11 The party refused to take any action
when Labour MEP Gary Titley brought it to their attention.

Frank Maloney (UKIP’s candidate in the 2004 London mayoral election), visited
Whitechapel in May 2004 and subsequently complained: “Barely anyone speaks
English and to look around you would think you are in a different country”.

(Itwas this remark that led Mayor Ken Livingstone to conclude, “UKIP are the British
National Party in suits”.)

Reigate Grammar School banned a planned political meeting on its premises after
it judged UKIP’s website to be “racist and offensive”.14 A UKIP leaflet circulated in
South Derbyshire during the 2004 European elections expressed the view that the
rest of Europe is ruled by “barbarians”.

Care to back that up? I see no evidence of them being racist.

 

[Tad]

So a couple of cases, which ALL parties have had, means they're all like that huh? Okay...

And you think other parties haven't had stuff like that? Most of them have BNP members for crying out loud.

 

[torchomatic]

Including the current party leaders using words like "nigger" and "nig-nogs".

Harmless then huh? Okay....

So a couple of cases, which ALL parties have had, means they're all like that huh? Okay...

 

[Tad]

Including the current party leaders using words like "nigger" and "nig-nogs".

Harmless then huh? Okay....

Of course it's awful. But, like I said, other parties even the ones in power right now have had problems too. It's a horrible thing to say. However, that is going back a few years. Nigel was pushed out. Maybe he's realised what he said was very wrong. Do people not deserve another chance?

Also, Robert Kilroy-Silk wasn't even in the party for a whole year. Surely that shows he wasn't wanted or liked.

EDIT:

The other ones I knew nothing about mind. Some right weird wiring going on in some peoples heads.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Yeah learnt what not to say to the media...

 

[Tad]

Yeah learnt what not to say to the media...

Hopefully not. I just wish a party would grow a pair and actually let us have a say on the EU. They're all using it as tactics and giving us nothing.

 

[Houdi]

Including the current party leaders using words like "nigger" and "nig-nogs".

Harmless then huh? Okay....

As opposed to the ex Labour councillor Cyril Smith who attacked and raped 7 children at the Cambridge Boy's hostel.
Or Graham Pearson a Labour Party mayor at Rossendale,arrested for having a stash of violent rape photographs of very young children.
Or Labour party activist Ian Rankin jailed for having video material of the vilest kind of child sexual abuse.
Or Labour Party spin doctor Samuel Gankin arrested and charged with making and distributing obscene films of children being raped and abused.
Or Susan Smith an ex Labour Lambeth councillor jailed for a 3 week rape of a minor.
There are plenty more of these Labour Party activists who have been arrested and charged for some of the vilest crimes,all on the public record.
Ukip have banned any ex BNP members from joining I don't believe any of the major parties have followed.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Meanwhile back in the real world itv news today are reporting that youth unemployment in Greece has reached a staggering 64.2%,and in Spain it has reached 53%.France has reported 0.1 % negative growth with unemployment heading towards 11%.The EU project is failing big time,yet the political classes are in complete denial.
We were told a few years that not joining the Euro would be disastrous for the UK,now you will struggle to find a single politician who would dare to mention the UK joining.The tide is with Ukip,and events over the coming period will only accelerate that movement.

Or you could suggest austerity is failing, the German medicine being prescribed to everyone at the moment...

... Which UKIP will be 'more radical' (Nigel Farage, last weeks BBCQT on the cuts) with. People generally don't see UKIP for what they are, they may not be a blatantly racist party BUT, they are 'little Englanders' who treat other countries with contempt and nationalism tends to produce a chauvinistic attitude to other people. UKIP are a right wing of the Tories but people only seem to voting them based on Europe.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Yes we never joined the euro,but the mainstream view,was that eventual membership was both inevitable and desirable.Now it's a subject which even the euro federalist dare not even mention.

If it was a mainstream idea it would have been implemented. Brown put the kibosh on it. As for the EU, it is a sticky topic right now, but eventually the chatter of federalism will pick up. Has to.

Even the Labour Party are falling over themselves in an attempt to toughen up their immigration policies,so Farage may not be in government,but maybe he is in power.

Some truth to this. Osborne did a first-rate hatchet job on the legacy of Brown, Balls and Miliband; the polls continue to show a distrust of Labour handling the economy, despite the Tories failing by every conceivable measure. So the strategy is to play it safe, don't talk up borrowing, side with the populist agenda of the day. It's not an easy pill to swallow, but it may be the most effective way of ensuring a Labour majority in 2015 (when Ed can do his own thing).

 

[Steve.B50]

Never been ito politics before but I agree with you 100%
Well worh my membership fee.

So...what are people's thoughts on them?

Personally, UK politics needs a new approach and they do seem a lot more direct and less waffle. I agree with them on the EU. It's a circus and we're the clowns that pay into. The org is laughable really. It's gone far beyond what it was set out to do and has arguably damaged the UK for years to come.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Never been ito politics before but I agree with you 100%
Well worh my membership fee.

Nothing here that takes your fancy? http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296

 

[Houdi]

If it was a mainstream idea it would have been implemented. Brown put the kibosh on it. As for the EU, it is a sticky topic right now, but eventually the chatter of federalism will pick up. Has to.



Some truth to this. Osborne did a first-rate hatchet job on the legacy of Brown, Balls and Miliband; the polls continue to show a distrust of Labour handling the economy, despite the Tories failing by every conceivable measure. So the strategy is to play it safe, don't talk up borrowing, side with the populist agenda of the day. It's not an easy pill to swallow, but it may be the most effective way of ensuring a Labour majority in 2015 (when Ed can do his own thing).

Oh great the return of a party infested with perverts and paedophiles.Well if borrowing billions to get us out of this mess is the answer,perhaps you can explain how we got into this debt mountain in the first place.You are aware that borrowing is just deferred taxation which will have to be paid back with interest .Back in 2010 we had to find 42,900,000,000 in debt interest alone.You wouldn't run your own finances that way,why should it be any different for government.Where is the social justice in saddling future generations with ahuge debt mountain.France elected a socialist President,opposed to austerity,he is now the most unpopular President in its recent history,with unemployment begin to soar,and with some market analaysts predicting it will eventually need an economic bailout as well.
Well the EU certainly likes to break records,as even today Portugal announced its youth unemployment rate has now reached 42%,a new record.The eurozone is a basketcase,no manner of sticking plaster will save it forever.The project was flawed from the start,with corrupt politicians who continue to show utter contempt for the peoples of Europe.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Well if borrowing billions to get us out of this mess is the answer,perhaps you can explain how we got into this debt mountain in the first place. You are aware that borrowing is just deferred taxation which will have to be paid back with interest .Back in 2010 we had to find 42,900,000,000 in debt interest alone.You wouldn't run your own finances that way,why should it be any different for government.

There is every reason for a government to act differently. The comparison of a government - with all its financial levers, printing press, central bank - to a household is just another of the disingenuous arguments made by the coalition. Any economist will tell you it's a duff analogy.

Debt really doesn't matter so much as long as you have growth. Look at the British debt-to-GDP ratio as the British Empire took off - 250%! Look at the debt FDR took on to create the biggest middle-class in the world, launching the USA into a league of its own. Borrow when times are bad (and interest rates are rock bottom) to create public sector jobs, reduce the welfare bill, boost confidence and demand, get people spending to create more private jobs. Cut when times are good so that a booming private sector can pick up the slack. Basic Keynsian economics that make as much sense today as they did 80-odd years ago.

You only have to look at the widely predicted effects of austerity to see how counterproductive it is. Jobs cut = more people on welfare = lower spending = private sector jobs cut = more welfare = lots of borrowing to plug a self-perpetuating hole.

This isn't theory any longer. The hard numbers are in.

 

[Tad]

Nothing here that takes your fancy? http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296

Most of those things can be achieved without being part of the EU. Germany, France and so aren't going to just stop trading with us because we're not in the EU- we're too important to them not to.. The EU was a nice idea at the start, but they've been given too much power since then. If our own government can't even make laws within our own country without checking with the EU, it's time to pull out.

Out of curiosity, do you live in the UK?

 

[Houdi]

There is every reason for a government to act differently. The comparison of a government - with all its financial levers, printing press, central bank - to a household is just another of the disingenuous arguments made by the coalition. Any economist will tell you it's a duff analogy.

Debt really doesn't matter so much as long as you have growth. Look at the British debt-to-GDP ratio as the British Empire took off - 250%! Look at the debt FDR took on to create the biggest middle-class in the world, launching the USA into a league of its own. Borrow when times are bad (and interest rates are rock bottom) to create public sector jobs, reduce the welfare bill, boost confidence and demand, get people spending to create more private jobs. Cut when times are good so that a booming private sector can pick up the slack. Basic Keynsian economics that make as much sense today as they did 80-odd years ago.

You only have to look at the widely predicted effects of austerity to see how counterproductive it is. Jobs cut = more people on welfare = lower spending = private sector jobs cut = more welfare = lots of borrowing to plug a self-perpetuating hole.

This isn't theory any longer. The hard numbers are in.

So perhaps you can tell us which Labour government ever left office with lower unemployment than when it took office. Or maybe tell us why the last Labour government had a manifesto commitment to cut public spending by 40 billion.Labour governments always run out of other peoples money to spend.As your chief Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne said in a letter left at the Treasury in2010,'Sorry all the money's gone'.Never has he uttered a truer word.If huge government spending was a panacea then Greece would be in paradise.
Socialism is a mental illness and the Labour Party is its ayslum.