USSR invades Ukraine. (61 Viewers)

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Apr 4, 2022

It is pretty clear that the Russian invasion has not gone to plan, but to what level is hard to work out.

Following the conversation of propaganda, it is hard to know what to trust. With so many people wanting Ukraine to win (rightly), some shit I have heard come across gets believed, and it is quite frankly nonsense. Also, with every minor victory that occurs for the Ukrainians, I think sometimes it paints a picture that might be misleading sometimes.

I want this shit to be over, but as some other posters have said, treat the information with a pinch of salt and do research where you can. I would hate to see a situation where all of a sudden Ukraine are clinging on and everyone was oblivious to it.

Otis · Apr 4, 2022

PVA said:
Truly awful stories and photos coming out of Bucha. Absolutely horrendous.

Clearly two wrongs don't make a right but Russian POWs won't be getting such favourable treatment from now on you feel.

I thought Gregg's had pulled out of the region.

duffer · Apr 4, 2022

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
While you do make a decent point, it could also be rather playing into Russia's narrative. If Ukraine attack something in Russia Putin can use that to fit into their Ukranian aggression argument, even though in the grand scheme of things you could argue it's entirely justified.

At this stage I just wouldn't want to give Putin anything at all he might be able to spin to his favour.

I entirely understand what you're saying, but I'd politely disagree. There's nothing Putin won't spin, we've seen that already with the recent atrocities.

I'd contend that I don't think there's much point in Ukraine fighting a limited war, they need to go after every military target with the maximum ferocity they can (which I suspect they're doing). Short of nuclear weapons it's clear that Putin has ordered total war on the Ukrainian population, it's hard to see what they have to lose.

shmmeee · Apr 4, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It is pretty clear that the Russian invasion has not gone to plan, but to what level is hard to work out.

Following the conversation of propaganda, it is hard to know what to trust. With so many people wanting Ukraine to win (rightly), some shit I have heard come across gets believed, and it is quite frankly nonsense. Also, with every minor victory that occurs for the Ukrainians, I think sometimes it paints a picture that might be misleading sometimes.

I want this shit to be over, but as some other posters have said, treat the information with a pinch of salt and do research where you can. I would hate to see a situation where all of a sudden Ukraine are clinging on and everyone was oblivious to it.

I stick by what I said a while ago which is Russia will annex the southeast and call it a day. The idea Ukraine will come out of this with all the territory it went in with is fanciful.

tisza · Apr 4, 2022

shmmeee said:
I stick by what I said a while ago which is Russia will annex the southeast and call it a day. The idea Ukraine will come out of this with all the territory it went in with is fanciful.

Ukraine would continue to fight.
The South East takes away its ports and that's disasterous for a country heavily dependent on agricultural exports. Russia would find it difficult to hold the territory as it's such a comparatively narrow strip of land.

duffer · Apr 4, 2022

shmmeee said:
I stick by what I said a while ago which is Russia will annex the southeast and call it a day. The idea Ukraine will come out of this with all the territory it went in with is fanciful.

I'm not sure it will be quite that simple, I think Russia might find that ending a war is a lot harder than starting one.

There might be some kind of ceasefire based on Donbas and the Crimea being separated from Ukraine, but I'm not sure that there will be any lasting peace if the Russians try to occupy more than that.

The butchery of this campaign (and I'm sure there are far more revelations to come) will motivate Ukrainian resistance for a generation or more, and they're going to have a substantial amount of battle-hardened and very well-armed citizens looking for justice, or worse, revenge.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how this ends, but I doubt that it will be tidily.

PVA · Apr 4, 2022

I said right at the start that Russia could lose this war and got pilloried, but I'm sticking with it. As duffer says I above I just don't know how they can hold any territory that they take for any decent period of time.

duffer · Apr 4, 2022

PVA said:
Truly awful stories and photos coming out of Bucha. Absolutely horrendous.

Clearly two wrongs don't make a right but Russian POWs won't be getting such favourable treatment from now on you feel.

I'm sure you're right on the POW thing, but I'd argue that the best thing that Ukraine could do would be to try to generate a reputation for treating Russian POWs as humanely as possible.

In fact, if at all possible I'd bribe them to quit, and pay them for surrendering, and for every piece of equipment they handed over.

There will be a lot of young, Russian conscripts in particular, who I think would be more than happy to walk away from the fight, if they had the opportunity. Encourage them where possible, I'd say...

AOM · Apr 4, 2022

Otis said:
View attachment 24302

I thought Gregg's had pulled out of the region.

Shouldn't have trusted the Chicken Kyiv's

PVA · Apr 4, 2022

duffer said:
I'm sure you're right on the POW thing, but I'd argue that the best thing that Ukraine could do would be to try to generate a reputation for treating Russian POWs as humanely as possible.

In fact, if at all possible I'd bribe them to quit, and pay them for surrendering, and for every piece of equipment they handed over.

There will be a lot of young, Russian conscripts in particular, who I think would be more than happy to walk away from the fight, if they had the opportunity. Encourage them where possible, I'd say...

That's exactly what they have been doing.

I'm sure it was something like $10k to surrender.

That will still go on, but I just think these recent developments will tip some (certainly not all) Ukrainian soldiers over the edge

shmmeee · Apr 4, 2022

duffer said:
I'm not sure it will be quite that simple, I think Russia might find that ending a war is a lot harder than starting one.

There might be some kind of ceasefire based on Donbas and the Crimea being separated from Ukraine, but I'm not sure that there will be any lasting peace if the Russians try to occupy more than that.

The butchery of this campaign (and I'm sure there are far more revelations to come) will motivate Ukrainian resistance for a generation or more, and they're going to have a substantial amount of battle-hardened and very well-armed citizens looking for justice, or worse, revenge.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how this ends, but I doubt that it will be tidily.

Im not up with Ukrainian history but hasn’t there been fighting in Crimea and Donbas since 2014? That’s the sort of situation I’m envisaging. Contested territory but not all out war across the country. Russia with deport anyone not with the program and move a bunch of people in sympathetic to Russia then maybe fake a referendum.

I don’t see a full scale withdrawal especially considering the vile stuff being printed in Russian media basically condoning genocide. I do wonder how Ukraine will respond, but if you live in say Kyiv I can also see how you might be less concerned about a contested territory than you are with getting back to normal life.

We’ll see. I agree I don’t see any clean endings for the war.

stupot07 · Apr 4, 2022

Fucking bastards.

Did similar with Asad in Syria.

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PVA · Apr 4, 2022

Oh fucking hell that's grim.

Might want to put that in a spoiler mate (I think you can do spoilers on this forum), some people won't want to see that (I wish I hadn't)

stupot07 · Apr 4, 2022

PVA said:
Oh fucking hell that's grim.

Might want to put that in a spoiler mate (I think you can do spoilers on this forum), some people won't want to see that (I wish I hadn't)

Sorry, I've done it now. I wish I hadn't too, but its important to view the reality of what's going on unfiltered.

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Liquid Gold · Apr 4, 2022

If these are genuine then Russia needs to be a North Korea style pariah until the people that did it, ordered it and take part in the political system that allowed it are bought to justice.

Encourage their population to leave, complete brain and workforce drain while the believers are forced to regress to scraping by.

These images should not be seen in the modern world.

Sick Boy · Apr 4, 2022

Absolutely disgusting scumags.

baldy · Apr 4, 2022

Oh fuck that’s beyond horrible - brings a tear to the eye
Heartless bastards

Flying Fokker · Apr 5, 2022

So this morning I browse the Express online and come across a picture of a Ukranian man felled by Russians. Poor, poor man. He lies next with his bike. Nearby is his faithful dog. Waiting for him to wake up. This hurts me so much. I hate this war.

tisza · Apr 5, 2022

Interesting perspective

stupot07 · Apr 5, 2022

tisza said:
Interesting perspective

Very interesting, I've always said Putin only recognises force and strength and that everyone immediately ruling out every supporting Ukraine on the ground was a mistake. Doesnt mean we should and would - the threat of world war 3 and nuclear war means it would never of happened, but removing that thread encouraged him in the early part of the invasion knowing there would be little consequence.

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duffer · Apr 5, 2022

tisza said:
Interesting perspective

It's certainly an interesting watch.

The one thing I'd absolutely agree with is that NATO has to stop saying that there are no circumstances in which they will get involved in Ukraine; there has to be at least the appearance of a bigger threat than that, especially if the atrocities continue, which they undoubtedly will.

The thought of escalation is frightening, but how long can we let this continue without stepping up.

Isn't this the right time to at least start giving Ukraine the planes and tanks they need?

duffer · Apr 5, 2022

stupot07 said:
Very interesting, I've always said Putin only recognises force and strength and that everyone immediately ruling out every supporting Ukraine on the ground was a mistake. Doesnt mean we should and would - the threat of world war 3 and nuclear war means it would never of happened, but removing that thread encouraged him in the early part of the invasion knowing there would be little consequence.

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Completely agree.

I would just make one small point; there's a strong argument that says NATO engaging, even in a limited form, with Russia in Ukraine starts WW3. However in Vietnam, US and Russian forces were in effect directly engaged in aerial battles in particular, and that didn't end up escalating.

Different place, different time, I know, but I just wanted to point out that there is some history that tells a different story.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Apr 7, 2022

Is anyone not shocked any more by the dispicable acts we are seeing on a day to day basis ?

It's like we're staring through a window, seeing what's going on and saying " Oh you can't do this or that / that's a war crime / we've got evidence of what you've done ."
It's becoming the daily narrative and it's tedious because we let it happen, comforting ourselves that, for our part, we're flying the Ukrainian flags , shaking our head and saying all the right things .
When I hear politicians shouting " that's a war crime" I find it annoying.

Imagine if the world knew about Hitler's programme of gassing millions of Jews at the time and did nothing except to say "We know what you're doing. You will be tried for war crimes after this is over. "

Sky Blue Pete · Apr 7, 2022

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Is anyone not shocked any more by the dispicable acts we are seeing on a day to day basis ?

It's like we're staring through a window, seeing what's going on and saying " Oh you can't do this or that / that's a war crime / we've got evidence of what you've done ."
It's becoming the daily narrative and it's tedious because we let it happen, comforting ourselves that, for our part, we're flying the Ukrainian flags , shaking our head and saying all the right things .
When I hear politicians shouting " that's a war crime" I find it annoying.

Imagine if the world knew about Hitler's programme of gassing millions of Jews at the time and did nothing except to say "We know what you're doing. You will be tried for war crimes after this is over. "

What do you think we can do?

Deleted member 9744 · Apr 7, 2022

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Is anyone not shocked any more by the dispicable acts we are seeing on a day to day basis ?

It's like we're staring through a window, seeing what's going on and saying " Oh you can't do this or that / that's a war crime / we've got evidence of what you've done ."
It's becoming the daily narrative and it's tedious because we let it happen, comforting ourselves that, for our part, we're flying the Ukrainian flags , shaking our head and saying all the right things .
When I hear politicians shouting " that's a war crime" I find it annoying.

Imagine if the world knew about Hitler's programme of gassing millions of Jews at the time and did nothing except to say "We know what you're doing. You will be tried for war crimes after this is over. "

Absolutely shocked and disgusted by it and I am sure virtually everyone is. I have to say though I just don't know what the answer is and I also think that is true of most people. The risks of getting involved are too high but it doesn't sit easily with most doing nothing.

Mcbean · Apr 7, 2022

The Czechs are now supplying tanks - the Americans are giving them the latest portable drones which have proved very effective

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Apr 7, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
Absolutely shocked and disgusted by it and I am sure virtually everyone is. I have to say though I just don't know what the answer is and I also think that is true of most people. The risks of getting involved are too high but it doesn't sit easily with most doing nothing.

My wording is probably a bit unfortunate I suppose so apologies. It is shocking, totally . But I no longer have that sense of shock as I did a couple of weeks ago. It's become the norm I suppose. I turn the news off and watch something else.
I do get annoyed with the " war crimes" stuff however. It's toothless and it'll never happen. It's saying the right thing for the sake of it. It's like taking comfort knowing that you've done nothing but you know he's broken the rules of war. It's nonsense.
What worries me is the wider implications of this. Any rogue state can, in the future, threaten nuclear war during an invasion knowing there is little consequence.

Sky Blue Pete · Apr 7, 2022

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
My wording is probably a bit unfortunate I suppose so apologies. It is shocking, totally . But I no longer have that sense of shock as I did a couple of weeks ago. It's become the norm I suppose. I turn the news off and watch something else.
I do get annoyed with the " war crimes" stuff however. It's toothless and it'll never happen. It's saying the right thing for the sake of it. It's like taking comfort knowing that you've done nothing but you know he's broken the rules of war. It's nonsense.
What worries me is the wider implications of this. Any rogue state can, in the future, threaten nuclear war during an invasion knowing there is little consequence.

Agree completely

Deleted member 9744 · Apr 7, 2022

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
My wording is probably a bit unfortunate I suppose so apologies. It is shocking, totally . But I no longer have that sense of shock as I did a couple of weeks ago. It's become the norm I suppose. I turn the news off and watch something else.
I do get annoyed with the " war crimes" stuff however. It's toothless and it'll never happen. It's saying the right thing for the sake of it. It's like taking comfort knowing that you've done nothing but you know he's broken the rules of war. It's nonsense.
What worries me is the wider implications of this. Any rogue state can, in the future, threaten nuclear war during an invasion knowing there is little consequence.

No need to apologise, and I feel similar. The more details we get seems to make it worse and my guess is that there is far worse going on there than we even know about, or perhaps will ever know about. It doesn't seem right to just let this happen and I see your analogy with the Holocaust. However, the options all have severe risks attached to them.

I agree with your last statement but unfortunately I have no idea what the solution is.

Otis · Apr 7, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
No need to apologise, and I feel similar. The more details we get seems to make it worse and my guess is that there is far worse going on there than we even know about, or perhaps will ever know about. It doesn't seem right to just let this happen and I see your analogy with the Holocaust. However, the options all have severe risks attached to them.

I agree with your last statement but unfortunately I have no idea what the solution is.

And you are dealing with a megalomaniac who has always been allowed to do stuff at will and doesn't understand the meaning of no.

I think Putin just constantly laughs up his sleeve at the West, who he considers a joke.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 7, 2022

Otis said:
And you are dealing with a megalomaniac who has always been allowed to do stuff at will and doesn't understand the meaning of no.

I think Putin just constantly laughs up his sleeve at the West, who he considers a joke.

The biggest error was indulging his power grabs really, as he shored up the system to make himself untouchable.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Apr 7, 2022

Otis said:
And you are dealing with a megalomaniac who has always been allowed to do stuff at will and doesn't understand the meaning of no.

I think Putin just constantly laughs up his sleeve at the West, who he considers a joke.

The sad part of that is that we are a joke though, and he knows it. If we weren´t he would have thought twice about starting this shit. He may still have done it of course, but other than offering some sanctions (which so far have proved pretty useless), we aren´t doing anything. Some countries in the EU (Germany being the main ones) are still giving Russia shit loads of money for the gas.

As others have said on here, I cannot see an easy way out of this any time soon. Putin might focus on certain parts of Ukraine now realising he can´t take it all so easily, but I cannot see a situation where he is going to give in and return to Moscow with his tail between his legs. He just isn´t that type of person.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Apr 7, 2022

Sky Blue Pete said:
What do you think we can do?

We could stop funding the cunts.

Its frankly disgraceful that western governments are saying all the right things but continue to pump billions of euros into the russian war machine on a daily basis......

It appears we care......but not actually enough to suffer any economic hit & inconvenience of not importing russian oil & gas.

Flying Fokker · Apr 7, 2022

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
We could stop funding the cunts.

Its frankly disgraceful that western governments are saying all the right things but continue to pump billions of euros into the russian war machine on a daily basis......

It appears we care......but not actually enough to suffer any economic hit & inconvenience of not importing russian oil & gas.

One of my concerns is that we do of course care. But, the money needs to come from somewhere. For many on ‘modest’ family budgets it will mean hardship. The sanctions need to hit hard and governments should soften any impact of this. In the UK. Some people over stretch themselves. Others are on the breadline all the time. I guess I’m lucky but I’m still pissed off that everything is going up. I hit the housing market in the 80’s. High interest and cautious spending seemed to be the watchword. The slightest change seems to put our economy in crisis so the sooner this war is over, the better for all parties including Russian pawns.

duffer · Apr 7, 2022

Sky Blue Pete said:
What do you think we can do?

At the very least, everything that Ukraine asks of us, short of piling in directly.

Ammunition, fuel, tanks, planes, the harshest possible sanctions on Russia, and fair warning to non-aligned states that anyone still supporting Russia might find western consumers and businesses looking to put their spending and investments elsewhere.

Maybe this is the trigger for the West to start thinking about genuinely ethical foreign policies rather than letting finance or corporations dictate where we do business. A dream, I know...

USSR invades Ukraine. (61 Viewers)

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