USSR invades Ukraine. (72 Viewers)

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shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Getting proper confirmations Ukraine is past the first line of defences. Time running out for a push to the coast before the mud comes in. The more we slow walking aid the more the Russians dig in and the more aid we need to give. Madness.

I see Cuba complaining Russia is stealing people to force into the Army as well. I can see a lot of former allies getting pissed off if that’s what they’re doing.


dutchman said:
Still using them wrong I see:

www.telegraph.co.uk

Watch: First British Challenger 2 tank destroyed in Ukraine advance

Social media footage appears to show vehicle’s flaming wreckage on side of road but there may be hope of repair for the four-man tank
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

If “wrong” is without air superiority like NATO I’m not sure they can be blamed
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
dutchman said:
Still using them wrong I see:

All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

On the first point, what's the "right" way to avoid losing a tank? Leave it in the garage perhaps?

Secondly, the Leopard thing clearly isn't what's being reported. Do you have other evidence?

www.forbes.com

Ukraine Has Lost Its First Challenger 2 Tank

Yes, Ukraine is losing tanks, including some of its best tanks. No, it’s not running out of tanks.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
dutchman

dutchman

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
On the first point, what's the "right" way to avoid losing a tank? Leave it in the garage perhaps?
Click to expand...
You don't send it on a suicide mission across open country.
duffer said:
Secondly, the Leopard thing clearly isn't what's being reported. Do you have other evidence?

www.forbes.com

Ukraine Has Lost Its First Challenger 2 Tank

Yes, Ukraine is losing tanks, including some of its best tanks. No, it’s not running out of tanks.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Click to expand...
My point was that the Leopard was no more use than the Challenger in this particular situation.
 
fatso

fatso

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
The more we slow walking aid the more the Russians dig in and the more aid we need to give. Madness.
Click to expand...
You have to understand that the west doesn't want this war to end.

Businesses are making shit loads of money out of it, and will keep on supplying just enough aid to keep the Ukrainians in the fight.

In short, the USA will fight to the last Ukranian.

When you accept that, it makes perfect sense.

Edit, the only man in America who says he will stop the war in Ukraine in 24 hours, is Donald Trump, hence Congress is trying every legal trick in the book (and some none legal) to stop him from returning to the White House.
It's clear that the current political powers in America are he'll bent in continuing the conflict in Ukraine, while preparing for a future war with China.
 
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skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
On the tank thing firstly the all leopards destroyed is just bollocks. Secondly to give some context Russia has lost over 2000 tanks in this conflict and are putting older and older tanks back into service as a consequence. Finally the Ukrainian soldiers were fast tracked through training so don’t have the benefit of years of training on this equipment with endless war games to home their skills. They’re learning on the hoof and they are learning, they might be loosing tanks but crucially they’re not losing personnel which is a good advertisement for the tanks. Every time a Russian tank is destroyed they lose the crew if they’re in the tank at the time, the Russian tanks are also a lot easier to destroy and getting easier to destroy as they’re becoming more reliant on older equipment. Finally again you also have to consider that Ukraine is on the offensive so are mobile, by its very nature that makes them more vulnerable than tanks dug into defensive positions.
 
dutchman

dutchman

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
Finally the Ukrainian soldiers were fast tracked through training so don’t have the benefit of years of training on this equipment with endless war games to home their skills.
Click to expand...
Which is exactly the point I was making in my post of June 22nd and to which I was responding:
dutchman said:
Where did Ukraine suddenly get the crews to operate Leopard IIs, Challenger 2s, and Abrams when they previously only ever had experience of relatively unsophisticated ex-Soviet types?
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P

PVA

Well-Known Member
dutchman said:
I watch the independent reports on YouTube every day.

Where have you heard that? Sounds like western propaganda.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to these independent reports?

The number of 5 destroyed Leopards comes from here:

www.oryxspioenkop.com

Attack On Europe: Documenting Ukrainian Equipment Losses During The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com www.oryxspioenkop.com

Considered to be the most accurate list of verified equipment losses for both sides. Only losses with visual confirmation are counted - you can see a photo of every single piece of equipment lost. There is no guesswork, only confirmed losses.

So if you think all 71 Leopards have been destroyed then that means the Russians are sitting on photos/footage of 66 destroyed Leopards. Which is absolutely nuts given that not long ago they posted several different images of the same destroyed tank claiming it to be multiple different destroyed tanks in the name of propaganda.
 
dutchman

dutchman

Well-Known Member
PVA said:
Do you have a link to these independent reports?
Click to expand...
The two channels I watch most often are:
PVA said:
The number of 5 destroyed Leopards comes from here:

www.oryxspioenkop.com

Attack On Europe: Documenting Ukrainian Equipment Losses During The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com www.oryxspioenkop.com

Considered to be the most accurate list of verified equipment losses for both sides. Only losses with visual confirmation are counted - you can see a photo of every single piece of equipment lost. There is no guesswork, only confirmed losses.

So if you think all 71 Leopards have been destroyed then that means the Russians are sitting on photos/footage of 66 destroyed Leopards. Which is absolutely nuts given that not long ago they posted several different images of the same destroyed tank claiming it to be multiple different destroyed tanks in the name of propaganda.
Click to expand...
I've never said 71 Leopards have been destroyed. I said "All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell". I can only comment on those which have already been used in action and shown on video. If they're sitting in a field somewhere waiting for crews then they obviously haven't been destroyed yet.
 
RegTheDonk

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure if these tanks were being used as effectively as they were supposed to be there would be a lot more crowing. Good point about the training needed to use them and with that in mind Id be worried how well jets are going to be used should the Ukrainians finally be given them. These game changing bits of kit so far haven't provided the outcome desired.
 
Flying Fokker

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
dutchman said:
The two channels I watch most often are:

I've never said 71 Leopards have been destroyed. I said "All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell". I can only comment on those which have already been used in action and shown on video. If they're sitting in a field somewhere waiting for crews then they obviously haven't been destroyed yet.
Click to expand...
Some pretty interesting stats there.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
dutchman said:
The two channels I watch most often are:

I've never said 71 Leopards have been destroyed. I said "All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell". I can only comment on those which have already been used in action and shown on video. If they're sitting in a field somewhere waiting for crews then they obviously haven't been destroyed yet.
Click to expand...

I don't think it was that unreasonable of me to think that you meant "All the German Leopards have been destroyed" when you said "All the German Leopards have been destroyed".

And it didn't take long to see those two channels are not very independent at all. Virtually everything they post is pro Russian. One of them has a Russian language Youtube channel. The other has a Telegram channel filled with Russian language posts about nothing but Ukrainian losses.

If you watch them and enjoy them, knock yourself out. But they aren't impartial.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
dutchman said:
The two channels I watch most often are:

I've never said 71 Leopards have been destroyed. I said "All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell". I can only comment on those which have already been used in action and shown on video. If they're sitting in a field somewhere waiting for crews then they obviously haven't been destroyed yet.
Click to expand...
It still bollocks then as Germany directly supplied 18 leopard tanks initially.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
fatso said:
You have to understand that the west doesn't want this war to end.

Businesses are making shit loads of money out of it, and will keep on supplying just enough aid to keep the Ukrainians in the fight.

In short, the USA will fight to the last Ukranian.

When you accept that, it makes perfect sense.

Edit, the only man in America who says he will stop the war in Ukraine in 24 hours, is Donald Trump, hence Congress is trying every legal trick in the book (and some none legal) to stop him from returning to the White House.
It's clear that the current political powers in America are he'll bent in continuing the conflict in Ukraine, while preparing for a future war with China.
Click to expand...
You honestly think they want to stop Trump from getting back into the White House because he says he will stop the war in 24 hours? I am certain there are much better reasons, like the man is a dangerous lunatic for starters

😂 Surely no-one in the US believes he can stop the war at all, let alone in 24 hours, because everyone knows that was an utterly ridiculous thing to say (as are most things that come out of Trump's mouth)
 
Flying Fokker

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
You honestly think they want to stop Trump from getting back into the White House because he says he will stop the war in 24 hours? I am certain there are much better reasons, like the man is a dangerous lunatic for starters

😂 Surely no-one in the US believes he can stop the war at all, let alone in 24 hours, because everyone knows that was an utterly ridiculous thing to say (as are most things that come out of Trump's mouth)
Click to expand...
The US plays To its strengths. Biden or Trump. Now there’s a scary scenario. Trump is an arse. He‘d cut budgets, allow Putin to overrun UA and leave Europe facing war. Biden will need a pick-me up if he is elected.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
Flying Fokker said:
The US plays To its strengths. Biden or Trump. Now there’s a scary scenario. Trump is an arse. He‘d cut budgets, allow Putin to overrun UA and leave Europe facing war. Biden will need a pick-me up if he is elected.
Click to expand...
Surely I get it. If Trump got in, he could cut the funding and supply to Ukraine, but he couldn't stop the war in 24 hours like he says. "you gotta settttle".

It would make it much harder for sure, but he can't stop the war if Europe and allies continued to fund Ukraine.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
Surely I get it. If Trump got in, he could cut the funding and supply to Ukraine, but he couldn't stop the war in 24 hours like he says. "you gotta settttle".

It would make it much harder for sure, but he can't stop the war if Europe and allies continued to fund Ukraine.
Click to expand...

Its in the US interests to carry on the war for as long as they can - no one is changing their approach but if they did withdraw support the landscape would drastically change in terms of overall views. The US just like the Empire of the day pull the strings
 
Flying Fokker

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
dutchman said:
The two channels I watch most often are:

I've never said 71 Leopards have been destroyed. I said "All the German Leopards have been destroyed too as far as I can tell". I can only comment on those which have already been used in action and shown on video. If they're sitting in a field somewhere waiting for crews then they obviously haven't been destroyed yet.
Click to expand...
In my view, this is going to grind along for a while. Optimists suggest the UA will break through and then consolidate before liberating Crimea next summer. I’m thinking it won’t be as easy to clear current lines. Russia will feed another 500k conscripts into that area.
But, F16s and replenishment of hardware will be the name of the game.

The looming specter of a US election will focus minds and US withdrawal of support in 25 if Trump gets in. I’m not looking forward to Europe being dragged into a war if the US stance changes. More fool them.
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
fatso said:
You have to understand that the west doesn't want this war to end.

Businesses are making shit loads of money out of it, and will keep on supplying just enough aid to keep the Ukrainians in the fight.

In short, the USA will fight to the last Ukranian.

When you accept that, it makes perfect sense.

Edit, the only man in America who says he will stop the war in Ukraine in 24 hours, is Donald Trump, hence Congress is trying every legal trick in the book (and some none legal) to stop him from returning to the White House.
It's clear that the current political powers in America are he'll bent in continuing the conflict in Ukraine, while preparing for a future war with China.
Click to expand...

Just a quick point; Trump was facing legal action long before the war in Ukraine started, over a number of different things, not the least of which related to him trying to overturn the results of a fairly run, democratic election.

If you genuinely believe the election was 'stolen', then I'm afraid you're buying into the most easily disprovable conspiracy theory in modern history.

Trump, in short, is a proven liar about that and many other things. Pretty much every court case he's involved in, in some way relates to his lack of honesty, rather than being some sinister plot by a democrat/military alliance with the power to travel back in time.
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
RegTheDonk said:
Pretty sure if these tanks were being used as effectively as they were supposed to be there would be a lot more crowing. Good point about the training needed to use them and with that in mind Id be worried how well jets are going to be used should the Ukrainians finally be given them. These game changing bits of kit so far haven't provided the outcome desired.
Click to expand...

I think it's a bit early to say whether the game has changed or not. In essence Ukraine is trying to force its way through the most heavily mined territory on the planet, without air-parity (let alone air superiority), and the enemy know they're coming.

That they're making any progress at all speaks to their careful planning and unwavering resolve, imho.

What's been holding them back, as I see it, is how slow the west has been to back them with the tools they need.

They're going to lose men and materiel, that's inevitable - I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that it's because some kind of strategic or tactical deficit when so far they've been able to resist and then push back one of the largest militaries in the world.
 
jimmyhillsfanclub

jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
And via the back door....

www.reuters.com

Breakingviews - EU will go easy on Indian resale of Russian fuel

Western pledges to prevent the circumvention of anti-Russian sanctions risk falling flat in India. Fuelled by cheap imports from Moscow, the Asian country’s yearly oil products sales to Europe have surged over 70% to $15 billion in the past year, according to data from the Indian Ministry of...
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Some more reasoned arguments on this thread now - makes it at least a thread worth revisiting again.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Some more reasoned arguments on this thread now - makes it at least a thread worth revisiting again.
Click to expand...

Your arguments in this thread have been further from reasoned than anyone's so I'm not sure you're in any position to complain about that.
 
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Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

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