USSR invades Ukraine. (8 Viewers)

[duffer]

Who'd have predicted such a turn of events

Your point being? Who would have predicted Ukraine surviving the first few days?

Ukraine will inevitably lose if the west doesn't back them, that part is obvious. You seem to be using it as an excuse for letting a tyrant overrun a sovereign European democracy.

I'd prefer to use it as a reason for providing as much support as Ukraine requests to defend itself.

If it's the cost that worries you, and you're untroubled by the morality of throwing Ukraine to the wolves, then in the longer term letting Putin win also isn't likely to be the cheaper option.

Think Ukraine’s Expensive? Wait for the New Cold War

Aid to Ukraine is under threat, but surrendering a democratic ally to Russia would be far more expensive. Biden makes a case for further aid.

cepa.org

Institute for the Study of War

The current US debate about providing additional military assistance to Ukraine is based in part on the assumption that the war will remain stalemated regardless of US actions. That assumption is false. The Russians are breaking out of positional warfare

understandingwar.org

 

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[fernandopartridge]

There is no way he wanted to reenact the ethnic cleansing of his hero Stalin.

He hated the idea of Soviet Republics so the idea that Stalin is his hero is a load of nonsense I'm afraid. He wants something more akin to Tsarist Russia i.e. the empire that fell to the bolsheviks.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Your point being? Who would have predicted Ukraine surviving the first few days?

Ukraine will inevitably lose if the west doesn't back them, that part is obvious. You seem to be using it as an excuse for letting a tyrant overrun a sovereign European democracy.

I'd prefer to use it as a reason for providing as much support as Ukraine requests to defend itself.

If it's the cost that worries you, and you're untroubled by the morality of throwing Ukraine to the wolves, then in the longer term letting Putin win also isn't likely to be the cheaper option.

Think Ukraine’s Expensive? Wait for the New Cold War

Aid to Ukraine is under threat, but surrendering a democratic ally to Russia would be far more expensive. Biden makes a case for further aid.

cepa.org

Institute for the Study of War

The current US debate about providing additional military assistance to Ukraine is based in part on the assumption that the war will remain stalemated regardless of US actions. That assumption is false. The Russians are breaking out of positional warfare

understandingwar.org

Ukraine is not a democracy

 

[Sick Boy]

Ukraine is not a democracy

Come on, banning left-wing opposition parties is a perfectly normal part of a democracy.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

He hated the idea of Soviet Republics so the idea that Stalin is his hero is a load of nonsense I'm afraid. He wants something more akin to Tsarist Russia i.e. the empire that fell to the bolsheviks.

Well he is doing a pretty good impression of a person trying to re form the soviet union. Stirring up unrest in ex soviet countries to send in troops is his way in every time.
Of course he wants to back to the pre break up days.

 

[duffer]

Ukraine is not a democracy

That is a piss poor argument, I'm sorry, and makes you and Sick Boy sound a lot like Putin apologists.

You're making the same lame argument as Tucker Carlson here, does that not make your skin crawl even a little bit?

Ukraine wasn't by any means a perfect country before its invasion by Russia, but its current President was elected by a free and fair vote according to most independent sources I can find. It's now under martial law, legal under the constitution, with elections suspended in exactly the same way they were in the UK in WWII.

If you're genuinely concerned about democracy and corruption in Ukraine, please explain how you think that will be improved for its population under Putin?

Wartime Elections in Ukraine Are Impossible

Voting in the middle of the Russian invasion is legally and practically unworkable.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[DrPoolittle]

He hated the idea of Soviet Republics so the idea that Stalin is his hero is a load of nonsense I'm afraid. He wants something more akin to Tsarist Russia i.e. the empire that fell to the bolsheviks.

That’s definitely true. Putin was even evasive about the scale and nature of celebrations regarding the 100th anniversary of the 1917 communist pigdog revolution.

 

[DrPoolittle]

Come on, banning left-wing opposition parties is a perfectly normal part of a democracy.

For a safe, secure democracy, yes

 

[Grendel]

Well he is doing a pretty good impression of a person trying to re form the soviet union. Stirring up unrest in ex soviet countries to send in troops is his way in every time.
Of course he wants to back to the pre break up days.

He isn’t - he has never had any intention of regaining former USSR territory - he has always viewed Ukraine as Russian - as many of the Russian public do

 

[DrPoolittle]

He isn’t - he has never had any intention of regaining former USSR territory - he has always viewed Ukraine as Russian - as many of the Russian public do

The problem with that is that Putin regards Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania as Russian territory.

And Putin has a selective interpretation of history. Ands that being polite

 

[Sick Boy]

For a safe, secure democracy, yes

Ok, Vlad.

 

[skybluetony176]

Come on, banning left-wing opposition parties is a perfectly normal part of a democracy.

They wasn’t banned for being on the left though they were banned for being in collusion with Russia. They were also minority parties. IIRC only one had seats in parliament and even then not enough to influence anything and even then were predicted to lose those seats when a GE can be held because of growing anti Russian sentiment , for some reason. The idea that this was somehow an assault on democracy is for the birds.

 

[PVA]

Ahh back to the old 'Ukraine isn't a perfect democracy so it's fine for it to get wiped off the map' argument.

A classic of the genre.

 

[skybluetony176]

He isn’t - he has never had any intention of regaining former USSR territory - he has always viewed Ukraine as Russian - as many of the Russian public do

And what do the people of Ukraine think? What Putin thinks is irrelevant. And how you’re gauging what the Russian public thinks god only knows. Tucker Carlsons word? Margery Taylor Greens word? You’ve certainly swallowed some propaganda from somewhere.

 

[Grendel]

And what do the people of Ukraine think? What Putin thinks is irrelevant. And how you’re gauging what the Russian public thinks god only knows. Tucker Carlsons word? Margery Taylor Greens word? You’ve certainly swallowed some propaganda from somewhere.

Ok Cameron babe

 

[Sick Boy]

They wasn’t banned for being on the left though they were banned for being in collusion with Russia. They were also minority parties. IIRC only one had seats in parliament and even then not enough to influence anything and even then were predicted to lose those seats when a GE can be held because of growing anti Russian sentiment , for some reason. The idea that this was somehow an assault on democracy is for the birds.

Ok, Vlad.

 

[Sick Boy]

The fight for full press freedom in Ukraine: ‘We can write what we want, but bad actors try to intimidate us’

Kyiv Independent’s Olga Rudenko is set on telling the truth in wartime, despite clumsy instances of state harassment

www.theguardian.com

Sounds very democratic.*

* This doesn’t mean I support Russia or think Russia is a democracy.

 

[Grendel]

The fight for full press freedom in Ukraine: ‘We can write what we want, but bad actors try to intimidate us’

Kyiv Independent’s Olga Rudenko is set on telling the truth in wartime, despite clumsy instances of state harassment

www.theguardian.com

Sounds very democratic.*

* This doesn’t mean I support Russia or think Russia is a democracy.

** or you want Ukraine wiped off the planet

 

[SBT]

The fight for full press freedom in Ukraine: ‘We can write what we want, but bad actors try to intimidate us’

Kyiv Independent’s Olga Rudenko is set on telling the truth in wartime, despite clumsy instances of state harassment

www.theguardian.com

Sounds very democratic.*

* This doesn’t mean I support Russia or think Russia is a democracy.

While obviously not a good thing, I don’t think the suppression of journalists during wartime is a uniquely Ukrainian phenomenon.

 

[Grendel]

While obviously not a good thing, I don’t think the suppression of journalists during wartime is a uniquely Ukrainian phenomenon.

I don't think anyone is claiming that are they?

 

[SBT]

I don't think anyone is claiming that are they?

No, but I don’t know why you’d reference it to undermine or question the case for supporting a country facing the threat of invasion.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

I’d still argue that Ukraine is slightly more democratic and free than the country trying to overrun them.

 

[Grendel]

I’d still argue that Ukraine is slightly more democratic and free than the country trying to overrun them.

Well thats great - in other news Fred West was not too bad a chap compared to John Wayne Gacey

 

[skybluetony176]

While obviously not a good thing, I don’t think the suppression of journalists during wartime is a uniquely Ukrainian phenomenon.

Or even non wartime. Look at our own country and the behaviour of the government towards “unfriendly” media, the pressure they put on the BBC, the client press, who they invite on photo ops, who they talk too (especially evident during the pandemic) etc etc. It’s all about shaping the narrative and they were for a period largely successful although thankfully the majority of us see through it now. As the polls show. Tories now polling as low as 18% having secured a giant majority in 2019 having controlled the narrative with a client press.

 

[Grendel]

Or even non wartime. Look at our own country and the behaviour of the government towards “unfriendly” media, the pressure they put on the BBC, the client press, who they invite on photo ops, who they talk too (especially evident during the pandemic) etc etc. It’s all about shaping the narrative and they were for a period largely successful although thankfully the majority of us see through it now. As the polls show. Tories now polling as low as 18% having secured a giant majority in 2019 having controlled the narrative with a client press.

OK Cameron babe

 

[PVA]

Well thats great - in other news Fred West was not too bad a chap compared to John Wayne Gacey

So you do think it's fine for them to be wiped off the map then.

 

[Sick Boy]

Or even non wartime. Look at our own country and the behaviour of the government towards “unfriendly” media, the pressure they put on the BBC, the client press, who they invite on photo ops, who they talk too (especially evident during the pandemic) etc etc. It’s all about shaping the narrative and they were for a period largely successful although thankfully the majority of us see through it now. As the polls show. Tories now polling as low as 18% having secured a giant majority in 2019 having controlled the narrative with a client press.

The comparison between this and the UK media is ridiculous.

 

[SBT]

Or even non wartime. Look at our own country and the behaviour of the government towards “unfriendly” media, the pressure they put on the BBC, the client press, who they invite on photo ops, who they talk too (especially evident during the pandemic) etc etc. It’s all about shaping the narrative and they were for a period largely successful although thankfully the majority of us see through it now. As the polls show. Tories now polling as low as 18% having secured a giant majority in 2019 having controlled the narrative with a client press.

……what?

 

[skybluetony176]

The comparison between this and the UK media is ridiculous.

Do you think headlines like “enemies of the state” aren’t fed by the government. The collusion between the press (the Sun especially) and the government over Hillsborough, the miners strike etc. The murder of Daniel Morgan and the this governments reluctance to release the report and then release a full un-redacted copy of the report points to a completely free press?

Also I wasn’t comparing it to anything. I was just pointing out that our press outside of wartime isn’t exactly some bastion of free press. 80% of the UK’s press is owned by 3 families, all pro Tory and happy to push the narrative they want on any subject from the fallout of a catastrophe at a football match to Israel’s invasion of Gaza. If you took the majority of the UK’s press at word you’d be forgiven for thinking we’ve never had it so good, the government is on top of everything and Brexit has been a success. You’ve only got to acknowledge the evidence of your own eyes to know non of that’s true.

 

[Grendel]

Do you think headlines like “enemies of the state” aren’t fed by the government. The collusion between the press (the Sun especially) and the government over Hillsborough, the miners strike etc. The murder of Daniel Morgan and the this governments reluctance to release the report and then release a full un-redacted copy of the report points to a completely free press?

Also I wasn’t comparing it to anything. I was just pointing out that our press outside of wartime isn’t exactly some bastion of free press. 80% of the UK’s press is owned by 3 families, all pro Tory and happy to push the narrative they want on any subject from the fallout of a catastrophe at a football match to Israel’s invasion of Gaza. If you took the majority of the UK’s press at word you’d be forgiven for thinking we’ve never had it so good, the government is on top of everything and Brexit has been a success. You’ve only got to acknowledge the evidence of your own eyes to know non of that’s true.

NURSE! NURSE! SCREENS!! SCREENS!!!

 

[skybluetony176]

As if by magic

Vincent Kearney: Claims PSNI spied on ex-BBC journalist

Vincent Kearney believes the PSNI may have tried to identify his sources for a Spotlight programme.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Evo1883]

Ahh back to the old 'Ukraine isn't a perfect democracy so it's fine for it to get wiped off the map' argument.

A classic of the genre.

If Ukraine were at war with anybody else you'd be sat here calling them nazi scum and hoping they got beat

 

[fernandopartridge]

Or even non wartime. Look at our own country and the behaviour of the government towards “unfriendly” media, the pressure they put on the BBC, the client press, who they invite on photo ops, who they talk too (especially evident during the pandemic) etc etc. It’s all about shaping the narrative and they were for a period largely successful although thankfully the majority of us see through it now. As the polls show. Tories now polling as low as 18% having secured a giant majority in 2019 having controlled the narrative with a client press.

They certainly worked with you didn't they

 

[Grendel]

They certainly worked with you didn't they

 

[skybluetony176]

They certainly worked with you didn't they

In the past for sure, I don’t hide away from that. How’s Brexit and the Tory government you enabled by voting for it going? You still towing the Murdoch, Barclays and Rothermere line that you shouldn’t be regretting your vote contrary to the evidence of your own eyes and reality?