USSR invades Ukraine. (120 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

How many civilians were killed during the Iraq invasion? 300,000?

You’re conflating data there. That’s the number for civilians killed since the 2003 invasion not during the 2003 invasion. You could easily argue that they’re as a result of violence since and because of the invasion but you also have to acknowledge that the majority of those deaths were and continue to be committed by Iraqi police, soldiers and domestic terrorism.

To be completely opaque you also have to judge that against Saddams record. Estimates of state murders under his rule range anywhere between 250K to 600K including mustard and chemical attacks against the Kurds.

 

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[Sick Boy]

You’re conflating data there. That’s the number for civilians killed since the 2003 invasion not during the 2003 invasion. You could easily argue that they’re as a result of violence since and because of the invasion but you also have to acknowledge that the majority of those deaths were and continue to be committed by Iraqi police, soldiers and domestic terrorism.

To be completely opaque you also have to judge that against Saddams record. Estimates of state murders under his rule range anywhere between 250K to 600K including mustard and chemical attacks against the Kurds.

Yeah, I'm aware of that but I'm not surprised to see you trying to justify the invasion at this point.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah, I'm aware of that but I'm not surprised to see you trying to justify the invasion at this point.

Ironic is it not.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I don't disagree and think it's disgusting and would like the killing to end.

Agreed. my point was when people compare the west with dictators around the world, I think it’s dangerous. We’ve done plenty we shouldn’t be proud of but as it’s stands, at least the populations can decide to get rid of the person who signed off on it. If you’re in Russia etc just suck it up and if you’re called up to be sent to your slaughter, tough.

 

[Grendel]

Agreed. my point was when people compare the west with dictators around the world, I think it’s dangerous. We’ve done plenty we shouldn’t be proud of but as it’s stands, at least the populations can decide to get rid of the person who signed off on it. If you’re in Russia etc just suck it up and if you’re called up to be sent to your slaughter, tough.

Similar to Ukraine really

 

[CCFCSteve]

Similar to Ukraine really

I don’t know, it’s a bit different. There are challenges due to Russian occupation of Ukrainian territories. If that issue can be resolved/dealt with I’d be surprised if there’s not an election. I’m not sure if Zelenskyy will have much choice, if he didn’t, I’d imagine he could be overthrown internally

 

[Grendel]

I don’t know, it’s a bit different. There are challenges due to Russian occupation of Ukrainian territories. If that issue can be resolved/dealt with I’d be surprised if there’s not an election. I’m not sure if Zelenskyy will have much choice, if he didn’t, I’d imagine he could be overthrown internally

Sounds not very democratic to me

Ukrainian president signs controversial law to boost conscription to fend off Russia's aggression

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has signed a controversial law, days after it was passed by parliament, potentially helping Kyiv to boost conscription to replenish depleted forces to fend off Russia’s continued aggression.

apnews.com

 

[Grendel]

Then there is this

Ukraine war: Kyiv tightens pressure on fighting age men abroad

Ukraine suspends consular services for men aged 18 to 60 as it aims to boost numbers in the military.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[skybluetony176]

Yeah, I'm aware of that but I'm not surprised to see you trying to justify the invasion at this point.

I wasn’t defending anything. I was correcting your misinterpretation of the data. Adding your own context to my replies ain’t clever and that’s the second time you’ve done it this afternoon.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Sounds not very democratic to me

Ukrainian president signs controversial law to boost conscription to fend off Russia's aggression

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has signed a controversial law, days after it was passed by parliament, potentially helping Kyiv to boost conscription to replenish depleted forces to fend off Russia’s continued aggression.

apnews.com

This is still different though. There’s defending your country and requiring conscription to do it and then there’s sending your own population to their slaughter for your own personal goals/ideological aims.

If Ukraine as a population decided they didn’t want to fight any more I’d be shocked if Zelenskyy wasn’t removed one way or another

 

[PVA]

Of course it's nothing like Ukraine.

On one side people are being called up to be killed for a despotic madman who has decided another country doesn't have the right to exist.

On the other side people are being called up to be killed to fight against the despotic madman so that their country doesn't cease to exist.

It's not even remotely the same and this constant 'yeah but Ukraine' by some when any criticism is levelled against Russia is fucking insane.

edit: @CCFCSteve beat me to it.

 

[Sick Boy]

I wasn’t defending anything. I was correcting your misinterpretation of the data. Adding your own context to my replies ain’t clever and that’s the second time you’ve done it this afternoon.

Then what was this about:

"You also have to judge that against Saddams record. Estimates of state murders under his rule range anywhere between 250K to 600K including mustard and chemical attacks against the Kurds."

It looks like an attempt at justification to me.

 

[skybluetony176]

Remember when we didn’t have GE’s during WW2? We were just like Putins Russia.

 

[Grendel]

This is still different though. There’s defending your country and requiring conscription to do it and then there’s sending your own population to their slaughter for your own personal goals/ideological aims.

If Ukraine as a population decided they didn’t want to fight any more I’d be shocked if Zelenskyy wasn’t removed one way or another

It isn't - it is forcing people against their will onto a battlefield.

No-one is going to join and support Ukraine in this war. Arms will continue to be supplied and - of course - the US will gladly rebuild the ruined cities with the cost being Ukranian freedom.

It is a pawn in a game - Zelensky is a grifter who looks after himself - as if he cares anymore than the allies "fighting" this war.

 

[skybluetony176]

Then what was this about:

"You also have to judge that against Saddams record. Estimates of state murders under his rule range anywhere between 250K to 600K including mustard and chemical attacks against the Kurds."

It looks like an attempt at justification to me.

I can’t help you with that one. Them’s the facts. The invasion in my opinion was illegal, I’d have no complaints if Blair and W were dragged to the Haig to answer for their actions. But to suggest that firstly 300k deaths happened during the invasion as you initially did is disingenuous and secondly you have to look outside the vacuum of events since the invasion to understand Iraq. If you don’t you run the risk of suggesting that Iraq was sunlit uplands where everyone was free and equal. They weren’t.

 

[Sick Boy]

I can’t help you with that one. Them’s the facts. The invasion in my opinion was illegal, I’d have no complaints if Blair and W were dragged to the Haig to answer for their actions. But to suggest that firstly 300k deaths happened during the invasion as you initially did is disingenuous and secondly you have to look outside the vacuum of events since the invasion to understand Iraq. If you don’t you run the risk of suggesting that Iraq was sunlit uplands where everyone was free and equal. They weren’t.

I'm quite aware of that, thanks.
It's also naive to ignore the knock-on effect that the invasion had in exacerbating the situation both while it was ongoing and to the present day.

 

[skyblueelephant76]

It isn't - it is forcing people against their will onto a battlefield.

No-one is going to join and support Ukraine in this war. Arms will continue to be supplied and - of course - the US will gladly rebuild the ruined cities with the cost being Ukranian freedom.

It is a pawn in a game - Zelensky is a grifter who looks after himself - as if he cares anymore than the allies "fighting" this war.

Whilst I don't personally agree with conscription, it's completely normal for democratic countries during times of war.

 

[Grendel]

Whilst I don't personally agree with conscription, it's completely normal for democratic countries during times of war.

Including Russia then I assume

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm quite aware of that, thanks.
It's also naive to ignore the knock-on effect that the invasion had in exacerbating the situation both while it was ongoing and to the present day.

That I wouldn’t disagree with. Same as it would be naive to ignore the knock on effect of a Russia win in Ukraine. This is bigger than Ukraine, just ask Georgia, Moldova or Estonia for starters.

 

[skyblueelephant76]

Including Russia then I assume

Are you saying Russia is a democracy?

 

[Grendel]

Are you saying Russia is a democracy?

Er I was referring to conscription - I cannot remember in my lifetime conscription in any democratic European country

 

[skybluetony176]

Including Russia then I assume

Russia! Democratic! Genius.

 

[skyblueelephant76]

Er I was referring to conscription - I cannot remember in my lifetime conscription in any democratic European country

Because no other democratic European countries have been invaded like Ukraine in your lifetime.

We were happy to do it in WW2.

 

[Grendel]

Russia! Democratic! Genius.

Tony you had better go to the politics thread. Your hero Nigel is standing again.

 

[skybluetony176]

Er I was referring to conscription - I cannot remember in my lifetime conscription in any democratic European country

Only because you know fuck all. Finland for instance, pretty sure Austria does too off the top of my head. In Norway it’s compulsory for men and women to do national service.

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony you had better go to the politics thread. Your hero Nigel is standing again.

You’re confusing me with yourself. Do you still have your Nigel avatar on file? Sounds like you’ll be needing it again if that’s true, like you did last time you voted for him. You’ve probably filled it under #theman.

 

[Grendel]

Only because you know fuck all. Finland for instance, pretty sure Austria does too off the top of my head. In Norway it’s compulsory for men and women to do national service.

So now you are making a case for National Conscription - blimey Tony it looks like you are back in the Tory Party.

As for knowing fuck all - perhaps you can substantiate your nonsense the other day regarding foreign nationals in Private Schools.7

Off the top of my head in Tonester speak for "I am looking at Google and pretending I know it"

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[Deleted member 9744]

Hmmm, US does some bad shit but not sure about doing things ‘at least equally as bad’ as Russia

People do realise that Russia is run by a dictator who basically can’t be voted out whatever he decides to do ? He’s sent an estimated 500k of his own citizens to their slaughter and shows no sign of stopping. For what ?

Social media has got a lot to answer for

The US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons; has bombed Vietnam and visited untold harm on its population; has extensively bombed and committed atrocities in various Middle Eastern countries including Iraq and Afghanistan and is supporting and arming Israel in what appears to me to be a genocide in Gaza. There is much more but it's too much to list.

I think this is easily enough to say it's actions have been at least as bad as what Russia has done. I think in fact it is far more, but the reason for that is that it is wealthier and stronger.

 

[PVA]

Er I was referring to conscription - I cannot remember in my lifetime conscription in any democratic European country

 

[skyblueelephant76]

The US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons; has bombed Vietnam and visited untold harm on its population; has extensively bombed and committed atrocities in various Middle Eastern countries including Iraq and Afghanistan and is supporting and arming Israel in what appears to me to be a genocide in Gaza. There is much more but it's too much to list.

I think this is easily enough to say it's actions have been at least as bad as what Russia has done. I think in fact it is far more, but the reason for that is that it is wealthier and stronger.

It depends where you draw the line. Go back 12-15 years before the US used nuclear weapons and Russia (Soviet Union) committed the genocide of 3-5m people in Ukraine during the Holodomor.

 

[Grendel]

It depends where you draw the line. Go back 12-15 years before the US used nuclear weapons and Russia (Soviet Union) committed the genocide of 3-5m people in Ukraine during the Holodomor.

Was that under Stalin?

 

[skyblueelephant76]

Was that under Stalin?

Correct

 

[Grendel]

Correct

Our friend and part of the uk and us alliance then?

 

[skybluetony176]

So now you are making a case for National Conscription - blimey Tony it looks like you are back in the Tory Party.

As for knowing fuck all - perhaps you can substantiate your nonsense the other day regarding foreign nationals in Private Schools.7

Off the top of my head in Tonester speak for "I am looking at Google and pretending I know it"

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That’s a stretch even for you. The fact is democratic European countries do have national service. I knew about Finland as its been a talking point since Russia invaded Ukraine with your blessing, not sure why I knew Austria has it and Norway made the news when they passed law that women as well as men had to do it not that long ago. You only need to pay attention to what’s going on in the world or indeed on our own doorstep to know that national service is a thing still in modern, democratic and European countries. Just flabbergasted that someone who thinks they’re the most intelligent switched on person on the forum was so oblivious to it that they confidently claimed that no modern democracy in Europe partakes in it. And as regards in your lifetime surely you only just missed the draft when ended in the UK.

 

[Grendel]

That’s a stretch even for you. The fact is democratic European countries do have national service. I knew about Finland as its been a talking point since Russia invaded Ukraine with your blessing, not sure why I knew Austria has it and Norway made the news when they passed law that women as well as men had to do it not that long ago. You only need to pay attention to what’s going on in the world or indeed on our own doorstep to know that national service is a thing still in modern, democratic and European countries. Just flabbergasted that someone who thinks they’re the most intelligent switched on person on the forum was so oblivious to it that they confidently claimed that no modern democracy in Europe partakes in it. And as regards in your lifetime surely you only just missed the draft when ended in the UK.

It’s not wartime conscription Tony. Never mind.