Grendel
Well-Known Member
you are proposing war which would escalate across the globe
it’s nothing to do with appeasement
USSR invades Ukraine. (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter Alan Dugdales Moustache
- Start date
you are proposing war which would escalate across the globe
it’s nothing to do with appeasement
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
War is already here
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No it isn’t - not outside the two countries who are involved
what you are suggesting is madness which fortunately the west aren’t too stupid to sanction
We are not at war
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Second that. It’s what we do next to defend ourselves. My one year savings bond is looking a bit dodgy.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
tisza
Well-Known Member
His days are numbered. Upset too many people inside Russia.
tisza
Well-Known Member
China watching on closely. Outcome will define their policy on Taiwan and other disputed areas. Sanctions also different for China - far more damaging for them.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It is war by proxy, Ukraine using Western weaponry and equipment to kill Russians.
Alan Dugdales Moustache
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure anyone cares about him. His dancing reminds me of weirdos at school who used to think it impressed the girls but they just thought anyone like that was a perv.
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Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
By Laura Gozzi
BBC News
Russian soldiers are dying in greater numbers in Ukraine this month than at any time since the first week of the invasion, according to Ukrainian data.
The Ukrainian data shows 824 Russian soldiers dying per day in February.
The figures were highlighted by the UK's Ministry of Defence. The figures cannot be verified - but the UK says the trends are "likely accurate".
The increase comes as Ukrainian officials say that Russia has launched a "big offensive".
However, the secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine (NSDC), Oleksiy Danilov, also said Russia is experiencing "big problems" with the campaign.
"Our troops are repulsing [the offensive] very strongly," Mr Danilov said. "The offensive they planned is already taking place, gradually, but it's not the offensive they imagined."
Last week, Ukraine's outgoing defence minister, Oleksiy Reznikov, said they were anticipating a new Russian offensive around 24 February - the anniversary of the full-scale invasion.
Some of the fiercest fighting has been around Bakhmut in the east of the country.
On Sunday, the head of Russia's Wagner mercenary force said the group had seized a settlement near the devastated city.
Yevgeny Prigozhin said on Telegram: "Today, the settlement of Krasna Hora was taken by assault detachments of the Wagner PMC."
BBC News
Russian soldiers are dying in greater numbers in Ukraine this month than at any time since the first week of the invasion, according to Ukrainian data.
The Ukrainian data shows 824 Russian soldiers dying per day in February.
The figures were highlighted by the UK's Ministry of Defence. The figures cannot be verified - but the UK says the trends are "likely accurate".
The increase comes as Ukrainian officials say that Russia has launched a "big offensive".
However, the secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine (NSDC), Oleksiy Danilov, also said Russia is experiencing "big problems" with the campaign.
"Our troops are repulsing [the offensive] very strongly," Mr Danilov said. "The offensive they planned is already taking place, gradually, but it's not the offensive they imagined."
Last week, Ukraine's outgoing defence minister, Oleksiy Reznikov, said they were anticipating a new Russian offensive around 24 February - the anniversary of the full-scale invasion.
Some of the fiercest fighting has been around Bakhmut in the east of the country.
On Sunday, the head of Russia's Wagner mercenary force said the group had seized a settlement near the devastated city.
Yevgeny Prigozhin said on Telegram: "Today, the settlement of Krasna Hora was taken by assault detachments of the Wagner PMC."
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
Never in the name on the motherland800+ per day ?!When will Russia parents say enoughs enough
tisza
Well-Known Member
sadly forthe parents that's a number that's going to increase considerably over next few weeks.800+ per day ?!
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Jesus wept, get a grip.
tisza
Well-Known Member
For Sweden to give up years of neutrality would suggest they agree. Finland rush to join NATO again suggests similar fears.
Would Putin leave any territorial gains demilitarised ? Thus closing the physical gap between Russia and NATO - one of the very things he claims he is trying to prevent.
Already real fears in Moldova of a Russian-backed revolution - again pushing Russia on to NATO's doorstep.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
So then, what do you think the outcome is going to be? Getting a grip is exactly what needs to happens before that tosspot Putin kills more people. I don’t think it will spread much, but sitting on our hands never works. It has taken many years to get to this point, however it needs to be stopped ASAP. P.S. Without nukes.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You may not be aware of this but Russia already has troops in Moldova and has done illegally since 1992.
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
Usual putin tactics. Supply some infrastructure, move some Russian people in, agitate then move the military in with a view to controlling them. Only surprise there is thst they haven’t installed a puppet yet.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The west carpet bombing Russian troops would inevitably lead to nuclear.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The current strategy is likely going to lead to either Ukrainian defeat or years more of a bloody stalemate.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You’re right, nuclear war sounds much more appealing!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
And it’s me who needs to get a grip? OK
duffer
Well-Known Member
The Ukrainians aren't asking us to fight their battles for them, or for us to send our children to die in their fields, they're just asking for the tools to defend themselves.
At heart, I'm a pacifist, but it seems to me that history has taught us that there's a point at which inaction becomes appeasement.
Personal opinion; Europe and the west need to give Ukraine whatever conventional weaponry they ask for, and quickly. The only restriction should be that there's an agreement not to use it on Russian territory.
Additionally, we (the West) need to bring serious economic and cultural pressure to bear on countries that are still selling arms to Russia. China, India, and Iran perhaps look like the biggest offenders here. Sanctions, trade and travel restrictions would certainly have an impact here you'd think, at least on the former countries.
Perhaps it isn't as black and white as that, but vacillating and sitting on our hands whilst a patently evil man commits atrocities against a free, democratic, European country, doesn't feel right to me.
At heart, I'm a pacifist, but it seems to me that history has taught us that there's a point at which inaction becomes appeasement.
Personal opinion; Europe and the west need to give Ukraine whatever conventional weaponry they ask for, and quickly. The only restriction should be that there's an agreement not to use it on Russian territory.
Additionally, we (the West) need to bring serious economic and cultural pressure to bear on countries that are still selling arms to Russia. China, India, and Iran perhaps look like the biggest offenders here. Sanctions, trade and travel restrictions would certainly have an impact here you'd think, at least on the former countries.
Perhaps it isn't as black and white as that, but vacillating and sitting on our hands whilst a patently evil man commits atrocities against a free, democratic, European country, doesn't feel right to me.
RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
Russia may be able to fund the meat grinder for years, how long will we be able to support Ukraine though? Heard on radio they use in a day the number of arty shells it takes us a month to produce for them.
While the bravado is great and the West needs to stand up to Putin, IMHO at some point Zelensky will need to get round the table and negotiate. Even if by some chance they push him out of Ukraine, never mind the Crimea, he can keep lobbing in missiles willy nilly.
While the bravado is great and the West needs to stand up to Putin, IMHO at some point Zelensky will need to get round the table and negotiate. Even if by some chance they push him out of Ukraine, never mind the Crimea, he can keep lobbing in missiles willy nilly.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Some fair points mate, all wars eventually end with some sort of negotiation, but I think it's up to Ukraine to decide when that point is reached.
As a nation we can't do it on our own, but NATO and Europe can obviously do a lot more should they choose to.
Even the military superpowers eventually tire of wars that they cannot win (Afghanistan and Vietnam for example), and even Putin will eventually come under pressure if he continues to lose tens of thousands of men without any real breakthrough.
Funding the meat grinder and being able to obtain enough materiel and men to support it might be two different things, especially if Ukraine has access to all of weaponry, support, and training they're asking for, is where I'm coming from I suppose.
tisza
Well-Known Member
Russia can't afford to find the meat grinder for years. They're about to throw in a load of conscripts and that hasn't been going well for them. Large casualties there will increase domestic pressure.
Negotiations mean giving up territory which sets a bad precedent for other countries (as well as Russia). They can't allow Russia anything that can be sold as a win as it just leads to the potential for further land grabs in the likes of Georgia, Moldova and others.
Russia probably can't/ won't just settle for Donbas and Luhansk "autonomy". The other 4 regions they have annexed and added to the Russian federation would also be included in some form.
Then there's the future security of the rest of Ukraine. The loss of key income from industrial and agricultural producing areas severely damages Ukrainian economy. The control of key ports for a large exporter also a massive issue.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
The breadbasket of Europe/the world.
I find the like of India et Al‘s stance quite telling. They want to have their cake and eat it. They may be ‘neutral’ but their inaction / reluctance to apply sanctions is telling. Oil (Short-term) and grain is needed to continue their development. The trouble is, Ukraine/ NATO will not forget the actions of these countries.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Given you're pretty close to it all, do you have any thoughts on how it all ends?
My uneducated guess is a year or so of relative, grinding, hideous, horrific, stalemate, and then Putin slips whilst cleaning his penthouse windows. That might be a bit optimistic though...
RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
Tisza, totally get the implications you've listed. Hopefully the Russian public/media will eventually turn and internal pressure might make Putin change track because that would seem the only way of stopping him. If they did withdraw from Ukraine, where do you think Zelensky would draw the line? Would he want Crimea back, seeing as how the West let that one go?
China and Irans behaviours hasn’t been a shock, however, India in particular have been massively disappointing to me. They’ve been profiteering on the back of ukraine and the wests sanctions. Whose side are they on ?!