Wasps to pay back Ricoh Arena loan "within days" (1 Viewer)

[Grendel]

The plan is almost certainly to refinance, perhaps another bond issue or perhaps something like like a mortgage or could they float on the stock exchange?

The simple fact of the matter is they won't be able to repay the money in 7 years time without doing that but that shouldn't be a problem as long as things go reasonably.

Honestly though it's not really any of our business it seems strange to be insisting the cet probe further into it at a time when our financials are so so much more precarious than theirs. The only people who should care are wasps fans and those who have chosen to take the small risk for 6.5% interest per year.

Not our business? You've spent more time on here talking about this bond than any contributions to any other subject - other than passionately defending wasps fans who slag off the club on social media.

 

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[Nick]

Whats there to investigate? if you want to know how wasps will have 35mill to give back in 7 years the answer is they won't, they will have to refinance, obviously they will hope things will be better and they will be well established and they will be able to borrow less than the 35million and at a better rate than 6.5%

Have the cet said that?
What's wrong with investigating all stories?

 

[Noggin]

Not our business? You've spent more time on here talking about this bond than any contributions to any other subject - other than passionately defending wasps fans who slag off the club on social media.

I enjoy learning and talking about investments, I post regularly on other forums regarding such things and enjoy managing my familys money, to start with I was just trying to help and educate people who didn't understand what a bond was, of course as is usual on this forum people like you drag threads out unnecessarily by causing arguments, misleading, misrepresenting and generally talking bollocks.

But yes I was passionately defending a wasps fan by calling him an idiot but saying he was no where near as bad as the Coventry fan skybluemong who called people cunts in every other tweet. It really is us and them with you though isn't it? no belief in reason or fairness, wasps fan bad, Coventry fan good. Foolish. Give me a reasonable human being that supports wasps, villa, Leicester, Sunderland, Germany, France, Argentina whoever over an asshole Coventry fan.

I do get drawn into replying to you, it really is a character flaw of mine, I know you are a wind up merchant and have no interest in the truth or reason, yet for some reason I respond, mea culpa. I'll try to do better good night

 

[Captain Dart]

CT have published a story saying loan was been paid off in full this morning.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/wasps-rfc-pay-134million-ricoh-9248558

 

[Covstu]

The fact is that Wasps have managed to get the stadium for less than half its value. Sisu could have had that deal if they'd simply been honest, honourable and decent. As they say - end of.

But doesnt this blow the arguement of the 'poor little charity and taxpayer' being ripped off by an evil hedgehund?

 

[Sick Boy]

But doesnt this blow the arguement of the 'poor little charity and taxpayer' being ripped off by an evil hedgehund?

Just a bit but it is great business now that Wasps have managed it though.

 

[torchomatic]

Sssshhh. Upsets people.

But doesnt this blow the arguement of the 'poor little charity and taxpayer' being ripped off by an evil hedgehund?

 

[oldfiver]

How do you work out that they didn't have the money to fund the move?

Inside knowledge?

Not as much as you!!

 

[hutch1972]

How do you work out that they didn't have the money to fund the move? Inside knowledge?

They have done the same as the Glazers at Man u. They never had the money to buy them so they borrowed money against the club which 10 years on still leaves them nearly 400 mill in debt.
Wasps are no Man u, so i expect plenty of pain for them in the coming years.

 

[lordsummerisle]

They have done the same as the Glazers at Man u. They never had the money to buy them so they borrowed money against the club which 10 years on still leaves them nearly 400 mill in debt.
Wasps are no Man u, so i expect plenty of pain for them in the coming years.

Yeah it's all a bit of a paradox really.

Couldn't actually afford to buy ACL until they'd actually bought ACL.

 

[Intheknow]

Yeah it's all a bit of a paradox really.

Couldn't actually afford to buy ACL until they'd actually bought ACL.

Laughable. United were debt free before the Glazers. The majority of the Bond recycles existing debt at an appropriate coupon. The instruments bearing the Glazer debt bore a far higher interest rate.

Wasps seem to be getting criticised for structuring a purchase on the same lines as you and I buy a house.

 

[duffer]

Laughable. United were debt free before the Glazers. The majority of the Bond recycles existing debt at an appropriate coupon. The instruments bearing the Glazer debt bore a far higher interest rate.

Wasps seem to be getting criticised for structuring a purchase on the same lines as you and I buy a house.

Anyone who likens the bond issue to a house purchase hasn't got a clue about either one or the other. You wouldn't be able to get a mortgage to buy a house if you showed that you consistently were in debt and relied on your father-in-law to bail you out every few years. However, you might be able to borrow money from all of your mates to make ends meet for a while, on the basis that this time next year we'll be millionaires Rodney.

I'm not criticising Wasps for what they've done; it's a a smart move from their owner to get some of his cash out of a dicey business and protect themselves against the risk of the Council being obliged to call in the loan. However to ignore the fact that they've consistently posted operating losses, and will now have to pay back even more debt before they can even start to get close to realising profits, is avoiding the obvious.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Laughable. United were debt free before the Glazers. The majority of the Bond recycles existing debt at an appropriate coupon. The instruments bearing the Glazer debt bore a far higher interest rate.

Wasps seem to be getting criticised for structuring a purchase on the same lines as you and I buy a house.

When we borrow money though we don't claim to be rich.

 

[Nick]

When we borrow money though we don't claim to be rich.

Don't you? When I got my mortgage I made out I was loaded. Ignoring the fact I need to pay it back. I've got a fancy car on finance, I get all my stuff from the catalogue. I'm rich as anything in my nice car and house and clothes.

Just a shame I don't earn enough to pay it back, thankfully credit cards help.

 

[Intheknow]

Anyone who likens the bond issue to a house purchase hasn't got a clue about either one or the other. You wouldn't be able to get a mortgage to buy a house if you showed that you consistently were in debt and relied on your father-in-law to bail you out every few years. However, you might be able to borrow money from all of your mates to make ends meet for a while, on the basis that this time next year we'll be millionaires Rodney.

I'm not criticising Wasps for what they've done; it's a a smart move from their owner to get some of his cash out of a dicey business and protect themselves against the risk of the Council being obliged to call in the loan. However to ignore the fact that they've consistently posted operating losses, and will now have to pay back even more debt before they can even start to get close to realising profits, is avoiding the obvious.

The ability to pay a mortgage is based on projected income and, for the Bank, the lend is based on ability to cover risk with asset value. And the Bond.....

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Don't you? When I got my mortgage I made out I was loaded. Ignoring the fact I need to pay it back. I've got a fancy car on finance, I get all my stuff from the catalogue. I'm rich as anything in my nice car and house and clothes.

Just a shame I don't earn enough to pay it back, thankfully credit cards help.

Nick's SBT night out.

 

[duffer]

The ability to pay a mortgage is based on projected income and, for the Bank, the lend is based on ability to cover risk with asset value. And the Bond.....

Utter rubbish. I know a bit about mortgages and lending, having worked in consumer banking and credit risk for a good few years. No bank in this country offers you a mortgage based on your asset value (or at least not any more) - they lend it you based on your ability to repay (edit: as demonstrated by your current income, rather than pretend figures).

Bonds, of course, are a bigger gamble - and it's already been pointed out ad infinitum that the security for the bond is based on a leasehold that reverts to the leaseholder in the case of insolvency. Guess what - that's why they can't go and borrow £35m from a bank at a reasonable interest rate to refinance themselves.

 

[Grendel]

The ability to pay a mortgage is based on projected income and, for the Bank, the lend is based on ability to cover risk with asset value. And the Bond.....

That's bullshit I'm afraid

 

[Intheknow]

That's bullshit I'm afraid

Really. A Bank looks to borrower's earnings to meet future mortgage repayments. It lends less than 100% of asset value as a cushion so as to cover payment default.

Having read the Prospectus there is an asset/debt ratio. So there is the cushion. And the investors look at future earnings to judge whether the interest payments can be met.

So the bullshit? And a Bond has a fixed interest rate. Mortgages don't for the full term.

 

[Grendel]

Really. A Bank looks to borrower's earnings to meet future mortgage repayments. It lends less than 100% of asset value as a cushion so as to cover payment default.

Having read the Prospectus there is an asset/debt ratio. So there is the cushion. And the investors look at future earnings to judge whether the interest payments can be met.

So the bullshit? And a Bond has a fixed interest rate. Mortgages don't for the full term.

Yes the comment on asset value is crap. Do you own a business? I do I have half share in a company that employs over 20 people. The banks will not consider asset values on a loan at all. They will consider your ability to meet payments. The asset value of the company was considerably more than the bank would loan.

 

[Intheknow]

Yes the comment on asset value is crap. Do you own a business? I do I have half share in a company that employs over 20 people. The banks will not consider asset values on a loan at all. They will consider your ability to meet payments. The asset value of the company was considerably more than the bank would loan.

What is your asset? Presumably not goodwill? Were you looking for a cash flow lend?

 

[Grendel]

What is your asset? Presumably not goodwill? Were you looking for a cash flow lend?

Perception of goodwill was a factor actually. The purpose was actually an extension to the building if you must know. The banks ultimate concern was based on ability to pay the loan that was the sole interest and it was very risk adverse. Despite being with said bank for many years and consistently making a profit the experience was certainly interesting.

What business do you own? You clearly have experience as well.

 

[Intheknow]

Perception of goodwill was a factor actually. The purpose was actually an extension to the building if you must know. The banks ultimate concern was based on ability to pay the loan that was the sole interest and it was very risk adverse. Despite being with said bank for many years and consistently making a profit the experience was certainly interesting.

What business do you own? You clearly have experience as well.

i was only responding to your bullshit comment. Which you have had the courtesy to admit was bollocks .

 

[italiahorse]

Yes the comment on asset value is crap. Do you own a business? I do I have half share in a company that employs over 20 people. The banks will not consider asset values on a loan at all. They will consider your ability to meet payments. The asset value of the company was considerably more than the bank would loan.

Of course you do

 

[Grendel]

i was only responding to your bullshit comment. Which you have had the courtesy to admit was bollocks .

No I haven't

What experience in business lending do you have?

 

[Grendel]

Of course you do

Yes I do -- are you calling me a liar?

 

[Nick]

Yes I do -- are you calling me a liar?

Are you at the Gallagher mcdonalds? They just extended their drive through to two lanes

 

[Intheknow]

No I haven't

What experience in business lending do you have?

You said it was bullshit that the ability to repay a mortgage is based on projected income and that asset value provides comfort to the lender.. And Wasps is owned by a hedge fund. And the moon is made of cheese.

 

[Grendel]

You said it was bullshit that the ability to repay a mortgage is based on projected income and that asset value provides comfort to the lender.. And Wasps is owned by a hedge fund. And the moon is made of cheese.

Asset value is bullshit from my actual experience.

Moonstone provided Wasps funding from Malta and its shareholder structure is impossible to define. It's created a new arm to create the bond according to the prospectus hasn't it? What is moonstone then if not a hedge fund?

 

[Moff]

You said it was bullshit that the ability to repay a mortgage is based on projected income and that asset value provides comfort to the lender.. And Wasps is owned by a hedge fund. And the moon is made of cheese.

Here you are again with all your facts, and yet when I asked you weeks ago to quantify Wasps success on the pitch which you were crowing about, you didnt respond, when I asked you if you enjoyed the game on Sunday you failed to respond. Good win for the Tigers wasnt it. Apparently my team are still top of the lague, a couple of weeks after their 27k crowd against Saracens.

I cant wiat until the play offs as well, remind me again who Wasps will be playing?

 

[italiahorse]

Yes I do -- are you calling me a liar?

One of the best !!

 

[italiahorse]

Asset value is bullshit from my actual experience.

Moonstone provided Wasps funding from Malta and its shareholder structure is impossible to define. It's created a new arm to create the bond according to the prospectus hasn't it? What is moonstone then if not a hedge fund?

Is it some sort of illegal whisky ?

 

[Intheknow]

Asset value is bullshit from my actual experience.

Moonstone provided Wasps funding from Malta and its shareholder structure is impossible to define. It's created a new arm to create the bond according to the prospectus hasn't it? What is moonstone then if not a hedge fund?

my reading of the Prospectus gave me the impression that Derek Richardson provided the funding. I also thought that the Prospectus stated that Richardson owned Moonstone. I also understand that a Prospectus has to provide factual clarity. So the statement that Richardson owns Moonstone is unlikely to be a lie.

 

[chiefdave]

Wasps seem to be getting criticised for structuring a purchase on the same lines as you and I buy a house.

Even if you ignore the fact that buying a house is not even remotely similar to a bond issue it doesn't' even work as an analogy.

If I wanted a huge mortgage but when the bank looked at my bank statements I was spending millions more every year than I had in income I don't think they'd be very keen to lend me millions. That's before you even consider the fact that the property I'm trying to get a £45m mortgage on sold a few months before for less than £6m.

No bank is giving you a mortgage on projected income. If you're equating the two the mortgage process would see you going to the bank to get a mortgage for £1.5m on a property you paid £200K for 6 months ago. No bank would lend on that basis, but lets just suppose they would. They would then ask to see your bank statements, They show you have an income of £2K a month but spend £4K a month. No problem you say, from now on my income will be £8K a month. What answer do you think you're going to get from the bank? I'll give you a clue, 2 short words, first starts with f second starts with o.

And the moon is made of cheese.

About as based in reality as many of your other posts.

 

[Intheknow]

Even if you ignore the fact that buying a house is not even remotely similar to a bond issue it doesn't' even work as an analogy.

If I wanted a huge mortgage but when the bank looked at my bank statements I was spending millions more every year than I had in income I don't think they'd be very keen to lend me millions. That's before you even consider the fact that the property I'm trying to get a £45m mortgage on sold a few months before for less than £6m.

No bank is giving you a mortgage on projected income. If you're equating the two the mortgage process would see you going to the bank to get a mortgage for £1.5m on a property you paid £200K for 6 months ago. No bank would lend on that basis, but lets just suppose they would. They would then ask to see your bank statements, They show you have an income of £2K a month but spend £4K a month. No problem you say, from now on my income will be £8K a month. What answer do you think you're going to get from the bank? I'll give you a clue, 2 short words, first starts with f second starts with o.



About as based in reality as many of your other posts.

Come on. Any mortgage can only be paid with future income. The Bank weighs up whether you might lose your job. That is future income.

Now, when a Bank provides acquisition finance, it calculates it's lending on what the combined business should be able to service - projected income (or cash flow lend).

and a Bank would look at asset value and projected asset value. A bank would also look at projected cash flow. A stadium with no anchor team has minimal cash flow to service a debt. A stadium with an anchor tenant has cash flow. But projected cash flow.

so, projected cash flow is something a bank will lend against.

and if you look at the Prospectus, it is the business growth that people are buying in to not the current numbers