What is the debt (1 Viewer)

[Bruce the Boot]

What is the actual debt , and what is the breakdown of how it got there ? The figures being quoted do seem true , we have nt spent that much over these yrs surely ? In the past we sold players for good money , Scott Dann , for one , Perhaps if we can work out where the debt as come from , we will get a better insight into why Sisu are still here .

 

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[Brylowes]

"Our mortal souls"

 

[Warwickhunt]

I have just gone into self harm phase:drowning:

 

[oldfiver]

What is the actual debt , and what is the breakdown of how it got there ? The figures being quoted do seem true , we have nt spent that much over these yrs surely ? In the past we sold players for good money , Scott Dann , for one , Perhaps if we can work out where the debt as come from , we will get a better insight into why Sisu are still here .

Well it was £60m + at the point CCFC left Highfield Road - start from there

 

[Hobo]

Depends which way the wind is blowing. SISU announced we were debt free, 30m then in the administration process suddenly shot up to 60m, plus they forgot which company had the golden share. Which was clearly done to muddy the waters for any prospective buyers.

 

[Bruce the Boot]

This is why I asked the question , Somebody that understands accounts from Sisu s tenure of the club might be able to see where the debt has come from , because they have nt spent that much ?

 

[Brylowes]

Depends which way the wind is blowing. SISU announced we were debt free, 30m then in the administration process suddenly shot up to 60m, plus they forgot which company had the golden share. Which was clearly done to muddy the waters for any prospective buyers.

Or which company held the players registration.
Good job SISU knew, otherwise they probably wouldn't have been
Able to buy themselves out of administration.

 

[Grendel]

Or which company held the players registration.
Good job SISU knew, otherwise they probably wouldn't have been
Able to buy themselves out of administration.

What's that got to even do with this subject? Which has been done to death.

 

[stupot07]

We've consistently made losses of around £6-7m pa since before and after sisu took over. They did wipe out some debt after admin, some of the the debt is also IOU's. I'd imagine its somewhere in the region of £40m.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Bruce the Boot]

What's that got to even do with this subject? Which has been done to death.

Why join in then ?

 

[Bruce the Boot]

We've consistently made losses of around £6-7m pa since before and after sisu took over. They did wipe out some debt after admin, some of the the debt is also IOU's. I'd imagine its somewhere in the region of £40m.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Well thats why I think a detailed analysis is required to see what actually is going on ?

 

[Brylowes]

Depends which way the wind is blowing. SISU announced we were debt free, 30m then in the administration process suddenly shot up to 60m, plus they forgot which company had the golden share. Which was clearly done to muddy the waters for any prospective buyers.

I was replying to this post.

What's that got to even do with this subject? Which has been done to death.

since when are threads not allowed to drift gently back and forth from the central subject matter, every
Subject on here has been done to death !!

 

[Grendel]

Well thats why I think a detailed analysis is required to see what actually is going on ?

For what purpose?

 

[Nick]

Won't it show in the accounts?

 

[oldskyblue58]

From the cash flow statements in the accounts 2008 to 2015

Total loans received £52.97m - of that £4.6m is from monies advanced as a loan by purchaser against the sale of Prozone
Total loans repaid £10.8m - including £4.6m Prozone loan repaid
Preference shares issued to repay loans (and some interest?) £4.3m

The original loan in the 2009 accounts was 11m. Because of the way the deal was done that loan included £9m for the purchase the CCFC H Group net assets( net assets fair value of assets & liabilities taken on £8m plus £1m consideration), basically the investors took on the cash flow of the business that's not the same as paying cash in. SBS&L Group largely met that cash flow from its operations as CCFC. In addition there was a value of £1m put on the option to purchase the ACL shares this was a valuation not an actual purchase. the actual consideration to purchase the group was around £1m but the "loans" will show more on top of that because the way the deal was done. It looks like there was actual cash flow funding in 2008/09 of £2m(11m - 8m-1m)

In addition the creditors taken over 2008 included payments due to certain creditors of £6.4m should we get promoted, we didn't and the amount was written off as a loss.

Loans outstanding on purchase 2008 - £ 0

Loans outstanding 31-05-15 - £40.55
Arvo £7.75
SISU investors £28.5m
ARVO Preference shares £4.3m

However factoring in the above narrative and the actual cash from SISU investors would seem to be nearer £19.5m (not a small sum but not as great as we might have thought certainly not £60m ) The potential loss to ARVO & SISU investors seems nearer to £31m

SBS&L Group Losses at purchase of CCFC in 2008 - £0

SBS&L Group losses at 31-05-15 - £49.2m
(which includes the £6.4m mentioned above, the purchase out of administration written off 1.5m, devaluation of Ryton £400k, Writing down the option value £1m, Goodwill write off 1.3m and a profit on disposal of Prozone)

Just my take on it - others might see it differently,

 

[oldfiver]

Won't it show in the accounts?

Or more to the point - does it matter in the current situation?

 

[Nick]

Or more to the point - does it matter in the current situation?

It does if people are trying to drag everything and anything to make SISU and or the club look bad and get some anger and rage going.

 

[Grendel]

Or more to the point - does it matter in the current situation?

No just a sideshow as ever.

 

[chiefdave]

Or more to the point - does it matter in the current situation?

Guess it only matters if someone is serious about a takeover. Any new owner would want to move forward with no debt so it would be a buy the club for a £1 but pay off some of the debt. The key question is how much would be required.

 

[MusicDating]

From the cash flow statements in the accounts 2008 to 2015

Total loans received £52.97m - of that £4.6m is from monies advanced as a loan by purchaser against the sale of Prozone
Total loans repaid £10.8m - including £4.6m Prozone loan repaid
Preference shares issued to repay loans (and some interest?) £4.3m

The original loan in the 2009 accounts was 11m. Because of the way the deal was done that loan included £9m for the purchase the CCFC H Group net assets( net assets fair value of assets & liabilities taken on £8m plus £1m consideration), basically the investors took on the cash flow of the business that's not the same as paying cash in. SBS&L Group largely met that cash flow from its operations as CCFC. In addition there was a value of £1m put on the option to purchase the ACL shares this was a valuation not an actual purchase. the actual consideration to purchase the group was around £1m but the "loans" will show more on top of that because the way the deal was done. It looks like there was actual cash flow funding in 2008/09 of £2m(11m - 8m-1m)

In addition the creditors taken over 2008 included payments due to certain creditors of £6.4m should we get promoted, we didn't and the amount was written off as a loss.

Loans outstanding on purchase 2008 - £ 0

Loans outstanding 31-05-15 - £40.55
Arvo £7.75
SISU investors £28.5m
ARVO Preference shares £4.3m

However factoring in the above narrative and the actual cash from SISU investors would seem to be nearer £19.5m (not a small sum but not as great as we might have thought certainly not £60m ) The potential loss to ARVO & SISU investors seems nearer to £31m

SBS&L Group Losses at purchase of CCFC in 2008 - £0

SBS&L Group losses at 31-05-15 - £49.2m
(which includes the £6.4m mentioned above, the purchase out of administration written off 1.5m, devaluation of Ryton £400k, Writing down the option value £1m, Goodwill write off 1.3m and a profit on disposal of Prozone)

Just my take on it - others might see it differently,

You forgot the eleventy billion that SISU have trousered...

 

[Bruce the Boot]

It does if people are trying to drag everything and anything to make SISU and or the club look bad and get some anger and rage going.

Here you go again , Im just interested to know why so much debt , when on the surface it looks like they spent nothing ?

 

[Bruce the Boot]

From the cash flow statements in the accounts 2008 to 2015

Just my take on it - others might see it differently,

Thanks , I get what you say but what does it mean ? What are these loans for , Why have the club borrowed , what have they bought ? At face value where has the millions been spent , ie , there is nothing to show for it ?

 

[Grendel]

Thanks , I get what you say but what does it mean ? What are these loans for , Why have the club borrowed , what have they bought ? At face value where has the millions been spent , ie , there is nothing to show for it ?

It's to fund the year on year losses the club have incurred. You do realise what the wage bill was like proportionate to income when they took over I assume? Players on well over £10k a week and the club losing money hand over fist? What do you think happens with these losses? They get swept up by the tooth fairy?

 

[MusicDating]

Tbf the tooth fairy must be losing money these days at 2 fkin quid a tooth!...

 

[albatross]

From the cash flow statements in the accounts 2008 to 2015

Total loans received £52.97m - of that £4.6m is from monies advanced as a loan by purchaser against the sale of Prozone
Total loans repaid £10.8m - including £4.6m Prozone loan repaid
Preference shares issued to repay loans (and some interest?) £4.3m

The original loan in the 2009 accounts was 11m. Because of the way the deal was done that loan included £9m for the purchase the CCFC H Group net assets( net assets fair value of assets & liabilities taken on £8m plus £1m consideration), basically the investors took on the cash flow of the business that's not the same as paying cash in. SBS&L Group largely met that cash flow from its operations as CCFC. In addition there was a value of £1m put on the option to purchase the ACL shares this was a valuation not an actual purchase. the actual consideration to purchase the group was around £1m but the "loans" will show more on top of that because the way the deal was done. It looks like there was actual cash flow funding in 2008/09 of £2m(11m - 8m-1m)

In addition the creditors taken over 2008 included payments due to certain creditors of £6.4m should we get promoted, we didn't and the amount was written off as a loss.

Loans outstanding on purchase 2008 - £ 0

Loans outstanding 31-05-15 - £40.55
Arvo £7.75
SISU investors £28.5m
ARVO Preference shares £4.3m

However factoring in the above narrative and the actual cash from SISU investors would seem to be nearer £19.5m (not a small sum but not as great as we might have thought certainly not £60m ) The potential loss to ARVO & SISU investors seems nearer to £31m

SBS&L Group Losses at purchase of CCFC in 2008 - £0

SBS&L Group losses at 31-05-15 - £49.2m
(which includes the £6.4m mentioned above, the purchase out of administration written off 1.5m, devaluation of Ryton £400k, Writing down the option value £1m, Goodwill write off 1.3m and a profit on disposal of Prozone)

Just my take on it - others might see it differently,

OSB I was under the impression that the "good will" write off was much closer to £10m since SISU took over. I cannot say I have gone through the accounts to confirm this but have taken it from the article below.

https://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/18/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team-part-2/

Here they claim "Of the £34 million losses, the accounts for SBSL Ltd show a total of £14,801,002 for such transactions. These include the amortisations of players contracts that total £6.8 million, amortisation of goodwill of £4.3 million over the period and a one-off £6.4 million goodwill impairment charge."

As I say I have not verified this but if true would show a substantial balance sheet loss thatcher than actual £'s out of the door invested in the club