The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (53 Viewers)

[eastwoodsdustman]

1. Any european laws the conflict with uk laws are only followed at the behest of the uk parliament.
2. We elect officials to the EU Parliament who vote on all legislation, if it doesn't pass elected officials it doesn't become law - turnout for the last European election was 35% in the UK, if more people bothered to vote then it would be more representative.
3. UKIP, who get loads of seats in EU elections, rarely bother to vote and claim loads in expenses. If they are so eurosceptic why don't they try to improve the system rather than just profit from it.
4. Immigrants bring more to our economy, particularly ones from the EU (the ones you'll be voting to be rid of, migration from outside the EU won't be affected). If you think they put a strain on our public services then you have to ask where the money they generate is going.
5. EU regulations are put in place to ensure standardisation of produce amongst the single market, this makes trade easier.

so in summary:
1. They are not taking our sovereignty
2. It isn't undemocratic
3. If you think UKIP are an alternative to corrupt politicians you need to look further at their record.
4. You can't argue against migration from an economic or public service perspective, the best way to cope with immigration would be to vote for a government that would invest rather than asset strip the country.
5. By leaving the EU and setting our own regulations could be easier to some businesses but it would negatively affect trade.

But despite all that the main reason for staying in the EU is to continue to strengthen the incredible European community we have. we live in the longest period of peace this continent has ever had, we can live and work safely wherever we want, we are contributing to the development of weaker nations to ensure, in the future, we have much better trade links and in why, in a world getting smaller by the year, would we want to isolate ourselves, make ourselves look backwards and insular on our small damp island. Lets show we're a forward thinking, intelligent nation and vote to continue being a part of the amazing work the EU has done and continues to do.

So are you in or out?

 

---

[NorthernWisdom]

Adapted from someone I know. Wiv links an' everything.

Up to you which way you vote. And this is very important. Dull, but important. But let’s face it, VOTE REMAIN is the only option with any semblance of rationality about it. Here are the reasons why, with references, and you’ll note I don't use newspapers, politicians or celebrities as my sources of information…

a) ECONOMY. No brainer, much better in. Virtually all economists agree! Do you know how unprecedented that is? For example (and but a few of the many examples I could have picked), the UK’s leading group of academic economists think so (1), so does the OECD (2), and the Institute for Fiscal Studies (3) and the National Institute of Economic and Social Research and Centre for Macroeconomics (4). The Heads of the Bank of England and the World Bank have also given interviews in the last few days where they clearly state Remain as the better option economically.

1) https://www.ucl.ac.uk/…/n…/0516/230516-ucl-economists-brexit
2) http://www.oecd.org/…/the-economic-consequences-of-brexit-a…
3) http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8296
4) http://ner.sagepub.com/content/236/1/2.full.pdf

b) MONEY WE GIVE TO THE EU! But what about all that money we just give to the EU?????!!! *sigh* we’re beyond that now, surely? But in case not, Full Fact has the details on the breakdowns (5), and do remember the rebates (that the Brexit campaign have rather maliciously avoided mentioning) and also the subsidies, charitable donations and grants totalling a vast amount of money (also not mentioned in some circles, funny that). In short, it’s about £100 per person per year that we give to the EU. For which we get the privilege of a unified set of rules and forms when it comes to exports, imports, taxes – good for business, that, imagine if they had to do that each time with EU nation? Plus bonuses for us as individuals, like cheaper phone charges when it Europe, cheaper flights, quicker queues at passport control at airports, and so on.
Oh and an economic bonus of about 3% of our GDP (see ref 2 above). Which is worth about £80 billion annually all by itself.

(5) https://fullfact.org/euro…/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

c) IMMIGRATION. Well, firstly, most immigration is from outside the EU, so naff all to do with this. But it’s good for the UK, innit? UCL academics point out they bring in more money than they cost, they’re more likely to work than the UK natives, they’re more likely to be economically active and thus not only less burden on the NHS but in fact they’re net contributors to upkeep of public services (6). And Oxford University points out they’re not even coming over here nicking our jobs either! (Because they’re wealth creators, so they create jobs and fill skill gaps such as in the NHS…) (7)

6) https://www.ucl.ac.uk/…/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigrati…
7) http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/…/Briefing%20-%20L…

d) THE NHS. One of the most extraordinary lies in this whole campaign is that EU membership is hurting the NHS. Obviously it’s not since we’d have a crapper economy outside the EU and thus less money to spend on public services (See economy paragraph and references). Also a decent percent of the NHS workforce is from the EU (8), and if you start clamping down on immigration (repeatedly-stated aims of the Brexit fans), then skilled staff won’t be coming here any more, and there’ll be a huge problem. Not to mention biomedical science, tech, engineering, physics etc etc. Also worth mentioning that the British Medical Journal, The Lancet, Wellcome Trust, Royal College of Physicians, Royal College of Psychiatrists are among many health related professional groups (see for example, ref 9)

8) https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/
9) http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i3302

e) EU RED-TAPE? Well, that’s all a bit rubbish too. The UK is the second best country in the world, in terms of market regulation and being free of red tape. The first? That’s the Netherlands (10). Both countries are in the EU… Also note similar freedom in the service sector too…(11)

10) http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/…/the-2013-update-of-the-oecd-…
11) http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/…/regulations-in-services-sect…

f) SOVEREIGNITY. What does that even mean? Turns out these days it means that the EU makes all our laws for us. It certainly does make some, sensible estimates seem to range between about 12 and 25%, the House of Commons Library for example suggesting 13% (12). I’d be very intrigued to know what’s bad about all of these laws that negatively impacts on the UK, regardless of who is making them. Bearing in mind many of the claims aren’t actually true… (13)

12) http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBr…/…/SN07092
13) http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

g) NORWAY AND SWITZERLAND. Yep, they’re not in the EU but trade with it. But because they’re not in it, they get to give a huge wedge of cash to the EU (about the same as what we do in terms of per person per year, as it goes) but without the rebates, grants, subsidies and charitable donations. And without the preferable conditions that the UK has negotiated as part of its membership. And they still have to accept plenty of imimgrants. They simply cannot negotiate the best deal because they're the wrong side of the fence.

 

[Liquid Gold]

So are you in or out?

I'm shake it all about

 

[skybluetom]

Both campaigns have been the very worst of politics and I tuned off from them long ago; admittedly I was 90% certain I'd vote remain from the start. Leave have been right about project fear, it's ironic though because they've adopted exactly the same tactics. It's hilarious how anybody that recommends voting remain has somehow got some other a gender going on rather than just believing we'll be better off staying.

I understand the concerns about the EU and what in reality is driving most to want to leave: migration. It is too high; it was ridiculous to not insert clauses when poorer nations joined preventing the free movement of people until said countries had reached a similar level of prosperity to us. However, there is a lot of myths and scare mongering about it. Yes the population is going up at huge rate; we've also got record numbers in employment currently so clearly there's demand for it in the economy. I also think those voting on the basis of migration are being somewhat conned. More than half of migration is from outside the EU, which having spoken to an American couple that recently moved here is extremely tightly controlled nowadays. Even if you stopped ALL EU migration the amount coming into the country would be in the region of 150 - 160,000 per year. That's forgetting about the people who may be forced to return to the UK living abroad.

I believe the answer to lower migration is improving the conditions of those other poorer EU countries from which these people are coming, not by cutting off our nose to spite our face and leaving the EU which from what I believe will result in our economy being worse. Ultimately it's a an open market of 500 million people; it seems to me insane to pull out of that despite the definite floors it has.

 

[lewys33]

But the one massive difference (that you failed to mention) is that the 277,000 non EU people that were allowed to enter the UK last year would have gone through an extremely complex and stringent process to gain entry. These non EU migrants would have had to prove that they are here to benefit the nation by fitting the skills criteria that we have a shortfall of in this country, also, if they were to even have the slightest blemish on their criminal record they would be refused, no such thing if you are from an EU member state.

How many unskilled, semi literate, convicted murderers do you think we choose to allow into the UK from non EU countries each year?

shall we say 100-150,000? I'll ignore the convicted murderers bit ......

I failed to mention it because it is irrelevant, if anything it makes the remain argument more valid. Essentially what you are saying is we need to spend more money on a bigger immigration department to reduce that 540,000 figure down to 400,000 and this will save our public services and everything will be dandy? I'd have more respect if you said stop immigration full stop.
.

 

[lewys33]

People have missed the point about "project fear".

It wasn't to sway out voters, it was to make those remain/in the middle voters get out and vote.

 

[dancers lance]

shall we say 100-150,000? I'll ignore the convicted murderers bit ......

I failed to mention it because it is irrelevant, if anything it makes the remain argument more valid. Essentially what you are saying is we need to spend more money on a bigger immigration department to reduce that 540,000 figure down to 400,000 and this will save our public services and everything will be dandy? I'd have more respect if you said stop immigration full stop.
.

So you think we allow 100 - 150k of semi literate, unskilled workers in from outside the EU every year? I think you might want to check your figures. When have I ever mentioned about migrants and the pressure on public services? If you would care to check my previous posts I have never mentioned this once, I was simply replying to your post, RE: migration, and rather aggressive rhetoric (which is being heavily used by those for remain) that anyone who wants to vote leave is a racist, which (underhandedly) you have just accused me of being.

 

[Grendel]

shall we say 100-150,000? I'll ignore the convicted murderers bit ......

I failed to mention it because it is irrelevant, if anything it makes the remain argument more valid. Essentially what you are saying is we need to spend more money on a bigger immigration department to reduce that 540,000 figure down to 400,000 and this will save our public services and everything will be dandy? I'd have more respect if you said stop immigration full stop.
.

I am voting leave and I don't give two hoots about immigration.

 

[lewys33]

So you think we allow 100 - 150k of semi literate, unskilled workers in from outside the EU every year? I think you might want to check your figures. When have I ever mentioned about migrants and the pressure on public services? If you would care to check my previous posts I have never mentioned this once, I was simply replying to your post, RE: migration, and rather aggressive rhetoric (which is being heavily used by those for remain) that anyone who wants to vote leave is a racist, which (underhandedly) you have just accused me of being.

Sorry I read it as from the EU.

Aggressive rhetoric? Accusing you of being racist? Behave yourself, I have been/done nothing of the sort.

 

[lewys33]

I am voting leave and I don't give two hoots about immigration.

Congratulations.

 

[robbiekeane]

I am voting leave and I don't give two hoots about immigration.

And you usually speak sense. Why are you voting leave?

 

[dancers lance]

I am voting leave and I don't give two hoots about immigration.

And me, it just seems that some people find this very hard to take.

 

[robbiekeane]

1. Any european laws the conflict with uk laws are only followed at the behest of the uk parliament.
2. We elect officials to the EU Parliament who vote on all legislation, if it doesn't pass elected officials it doesn't become law - turnout for the last European election was 35% in the UK, if more people bothered to vote then it would be more representative.
3. UKIP, who get loads of seats in EU elections, rarely bother to vote and claim loads in expenses. If they are so eurosceptic why don't they try to improve the system rather than just profit from it.
4. Immigrants bring more to our economy, particularly ones from the EU (the ones you'll be voting to be rid of, migration from outside the EU won't be affected). If you think they put a strain on our public services then you have to ask where the money they generate is going.
5. EU regulations are put in place to ensure standardisation of produce amongst the single market, this makes trade easier.

so in summary:
1. They are not taking our sovereignty
2. It isn't undemocratic
3. If you think UKIP are an alternative to corrupt politicians you need to look further at their record.
4. You can't argue against migration from an economic or public service perspective, the best way to cope with immigration would be to vote for a government that would invest rather than asset strip the country.
5. By leaving the EU and setting our own regulations could be easier to some businesses but it would negatively affect trade.

But despite all that the main reason for staying in the EU is to continue to strengthen the incredible European community we have. we live in the longest period of peace this continent has ever had, we can live and work safely wherever we want, we are contributing to the development of weaker nations to ensure, in the future, we have much better trade links and in why, in a world getting smaller by the year, would we want to isolate ourselves, make ourselves look backwards and insular on our small damp island. Lets show we're a forward thinking, intelligent nation and vote to continue being a part of the amazing work the EU has done and continues to do.

Amen

 

[dancers lance]

Sorry I read it as from the EU.

Aggressive rhetoric? Accusing you of being racist? Behave yourself, I have been/done nothing of the sort.

"I'd have more respect if you said stop immigration full stop" but I want nothing of the sort? I would have more respect for you if you admitted that is a 'loaded' reply.

 

[Grendel]

Congratulations.

The one thing I would say though is that there is unquestionably a strain on the NHS from the population rise.
The net figure on this is a deficit of £11 per person treated I believe and two doctors I know are voting out as they see this as a significant issue going forward.
I have private health care for the whole family so not a personal issue but I do think that the immigration discussion isn't a racist one. It has validity as this country has without doubt limited available space. Green belt land is already being destroyed at a whim. A green and pleasant land it may soon not be.

 

[chiefdave]

More power? What are you talking about?

So if we leave the government won't have more power? Why do the vote leave campaign keep banging on about the EU making all our laws for us then?

The 'power' as you put it should be in the hands of the electorate. The power to democratically elect a government.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

I don't believe in our FPTP system the power is in any way with the electorate. It is a completely unsuitable system for multi party politics hence why only a handful of countries still use it.

Look at the percentage of votes the conservatives got to gain outright control. Look at the percentage of votes UKIP and the SNP got and compare how many seats they have.
That's before you even consider the number of people who don't vote. I know many people who don't vote as they feel it is a waste of time if not voting for one of the big two.
The system is shambolic and the government is totally unaccountable, in no small part thanks to the press.

Remember the contract the Conservatives put out before they got into power? Not a single thing on that have they adhered to. Osbourne gets to set his own targets but has still managed to miss every single one. There's an investigation into Conservative electoral fraud at the moment, that's a huge issue yet you hardly hear a mention of it. The media allows them to get away with it, as it benefits the likes of Murdoch, and the electorate lap up any old rubbish the likes of the Sun put out.

 

[chiefdave]

Both campaigns have been the very worst of politics

The London Mayoral election was terrible as well. There needs to be a big shake up but it would be like turkeys voting for Xmas so it won't happen.

 

[Grendel]

Leaving actually will bring economic benefits.

The pound is hugely inflated - mainly because of the dire state of the Euro (a currency the same experts who predict dire consequences were demanding we joined). This will help exports and improve profitability.

We will also see some inflation in the country. This will stimulate interest rates and encourage savings away from the EU.

I was with a group of Europeans the other week and the funny thing is they were terrified at the prospect of a leave vote as they believe it will cause a domino effect in their own countries. France had already state it will be pressured to have a referendum and the prevailing mood is out.

I'm still confused at anyone who considers themselves a socialist supporting this federalist monopoly. I even feel sorts for the euro despising Corbyn who clearly is saying one thing but oh so desperately wants another.

 

[lewys33]

"I'd have more respect if you said stop immigration full stop" but I want nothing of the sort? I would have more respect for you if you admitted that is a 'loaded' reply.

If you read my earlier posts (like you told me) I made it quite clear I think immigration either needs to be stopped completely or accepted for what it is. Understood?

The one thing I would say though is that there is unquestionably a strain on the NHS from the population rise.
The net figure on this is a deficit of £11 per person treated I believe and two doctors I know are voting out as they see this as a significant issue going forward.
I have private health care for the whole family so not a personal issue but I do think that the immigration discussion isn't a racist one. It has validity as this country has without doubt limited available space. Green belt land is already being destroyed at a whim. A green and pleasant land it may soon not be.

strain isn't the right word though is it? The increase in population will obviously increase throughput but the strain is coming from the lack of funding. The immigration discussion isn't a racist one, because there are very important things to consider but lets not pretend leaving the EU will solve it entirely.

I was with a group of Europeans the other week and the funny thing is they were terrified at the prospect of a leave vote as they believe it will cause a domino effect in their own countries. France had already state it will be pressured to have a referendum and the prevailing mood is out.

This is the only reason an out vote would work in my opinion (and the reason I have been considering it). If anything though it would bring more economic turmoil.

 

[dancers lance]

"If you read my earlier posts (like you told me) I made it quite clear I think immigration either needs to be stopped completely or accepted for what it is" Understood?

But why does leaving the EU mean we have to stop all immigration?

 

[lewys33]

"If you read my earlier posts (like you told me) I made it quite clear I think immigration either needs to be stopped completely or accepted for what it is" Understood?

But why does leaving the EU mean we have to stop all immigration?

It doesn't. I am just saying let's not pretend it will solve it.

Edit: Now you have a picture I will be able to distinguish your posts

 

[Johnnythespider]

The one thing I would say though is that there is unquestionably a strain on the NHS from the population rise.
The net figure on this is a deficit of £11 per person treated I believe and two doctors I know are voting out as they see this as a significant issue going forward.
I have private health care for the whole family so not a personal issue but I do think that the immigration discussion isn't a racist one. It has validity as this country has without doubt limited available space. Green belt land is already being destroyed at a whim. A green and pleasant land it may soon not be.

So you do give two hoots about immigration

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[dancers lance]

It doesn't. I am just saying let's not pretend it will solve it.

Edit: Now you have a picture I will be able to distinguish your posts

Ha, now doge and the Hitch can give each other 'the eye' every time we talk eeking:

 

[mrtrench]

Leaving actually will bring economic benefits.

The pound is hugely inflated - mainly because of the dire state of the Euro (a currency the same experts who predict dire consequences were demanding we joined). This will help exports and improve profitability.

We will also see some inflation in the country. This will stimulate interest rates and encourage savings away from the EU.

I agree. I did some calculations on the £4,300 per household by 2031 number that Stay were bandying around. That number is just GDP divided by the current population. When you take into account 330k net immigration per year it equates to almost all of that £4,300 even assuming that each immigrant is earning half the average wage. GDP is not a measure of individual wealth - it's just the turnover of the country. In reality by my calculations the average wealth per household would reduce if you divided by the projected number of households rather than the current.

I must confess that I'm not so sure on this one as I was that EMU was a terrible idea. EMU was bloody obvious. The key to me is how terrible free movement and Europe is for the countries losing their population - it's even worse for the economy to have mass emigration than the opposite.

 

[dancers lance]

I agree. I did some calculations on the £4,300 per household by 2031 number that Stay were bandying around. That number is just GDP divided by the current population. When you take into account 330k net immigration per year it equates to almost all of that £4,300 even assuming that each immigrant is earning half the average wage. GDP is not a measure of individual wealth - it's just the turnover of the country. In reality by my calculations the average wealth per household would reduce if you divided by the projected number of households rather than the current.

I must confess that I'm not so sure on this one as I was that EMU was a terrible idea. EMU was bloody obvious. The key to me is how terrible free movement and Europe is for the countries losing their population - it's even worse for the economy to have mass emigration than the opposite.

The £4,300 figure is bullshit and they know it is, hence the remain party never mentioning it again after they were questioned about it.

 

[Kingokings204]

Why stay part of an openly failing state. We don't leave someone else will.

Why do you think Greece aren't allowed to leave and we keep chucking billions away? It's because if they did leave and they have some success which they will then others will follow.

So what I'm saying is this state will fall apart anyway. 17 countries have the euro that's simply can't last forever. It's doomed to fail from the start. It's never had success the euro. Thank good we didn't join it by the same people coincidentally who want us to stay.

 

[armybike]

It's no secret that the EU is dog shit, but I'm still not convinced by the "Trust us, *fingers crossed* It'll all be OK" mantra of the Leave campaign.

Also having Boris Johnson as one of your leaving voice is all well and good, but it's clear he's only doing it for personal gain with a view towards being the next Prime Minister.

Also his current comments re Turkey are somewhat at odds with his views here -



I still think Remain will win by 52/48 and one of the best parts of a Remain win for me, is the big F You it'd be to all the racists who have used this campaign to spew their vile opinions.

I acknowledge that the racist element is only a small percentage, but they have been some of the loudest and most unapologetic about their opinions.

 

[Kingokings204]

The £4,300 figure is bullshit and they know it is, hence the remain party never mentioning it again after they were questioned about it.

Nothing more than a figure out of the air.

2453453 see I did it also

 

[Kingokings204]

It's no secret that the EU is dog shit, but I'm still not convinced by the "Trust us, *fingers crossed* It'll all be OK" mantra of the Leave campaign.

Also having Boris Johnson as one of your leaving voice is all well and good, but it's clear he's only doing it for personal gain with a view towards being the next Prime Minister.

Also his current comments re Turkey are somewhat at odds with his views here -



I still think Remain will win by 52/48 and one of the best parts of a Remain win for me, is the big F You it'd be to all the racists who have used this campaign to spew their vile opinions.

I acknowledge that the racist element is only a small percentage, but they have been some of the loudest and most unapologetic about their opinions.

Here we go racists again. I'm sure there are some racists in this country but so does every country. This vote is about an eu referendum not racists views. Sorry

Also don't let them bother you. People who are racist let them make their own errors and warped minds up without needing to get one up on them. You are better than them regardless

 

[dancers lance]

It's no secret that the EU is dog shit, but I'm still not convinced by the "Trust us, *fingers crossed* It'll all be OK" mantra of the Leave campaign.

Also having Boris Johnson as one of your leaving voice is all well and good, but it's clear he's only doing it for personal gain with a view towards being the next Prime Minister.

Also his current comments re Turkey are somewhat at odds with his views here -



I still think Remain will win by 52/48 and one of the best parts of a Remain win for me, is the big F You it'd be to all the racists who have used this campaign to spew their vile opinions.

I acknowledge that the racist element is only a small percentage, but they have been some of the loudest and most unapologetic about their opinions.

Who would you say are the biggest, loudest most unapologetic racists in the leave camp?

 

[armybike]

Here we go racists again.

I've clearly acknowledge it's only a small percentage and also only my opinion on what a Remain vote would demonstrate to them.

To simply ignore racism and take a 'don't let them bother you' stance simply isn't a productive way of dealing with the situation.

It needs to be highlighted and brought out into the open.

It's perfectly reasonable to judge people, disagree with them, not want to be around them - but that judgement should be based on how much of a twat they are as an individual and not on their colour, religion or place of birth.

Equally, I'm not blind to the fact that people of all colours, religions or place of birth can be racist.

However, I still think the vote will be 52/48 to remain.

 

[dancers lance]

I've clearly acknowledge it's only a small percentage and also only my opinion on what a Remain vote would demonstrate to them.

To simply ignore racism and take a 'don't let them bother you' stance simply isn't a productive way of dealing with the situation.

It needs to be highlighted and brought out into the open.

It's perfectly reasonable to judge people, disagree with them, not want to be around them - but that judgement should be based on how much of a twat they are as an individual and not on their colour, religion or place of birth.

Equally, I'm not blind to the fact that people of all colours, religions or place of birth can be racist.

However, I still think the vote will be 52/48 to remain.

I agree that judging people by colour and birth place is racist but do you really believe that to question someones religion is also an act of racism?

 

[armybike]

Who would you say are the biggest, loudest most unapologetic racists in the leave camp?

I wasn't aware that racism was a hierarchical system, so can't offer a response to who's the 'biggest' (unless you meant physical size?) but anyone from the small percentage who has used the campaign be it either via word of mouth, social media or carrier pigeon to spout their drivel.

 

[armybike]

I agree that judging people by colour and birth place is racist but do you really believe that to question someones religion is also an act of racism?

I've not said it is.

 

[dancers lance]



I wasn't aware that racism was a hierarchical system, so can't offer a response to who's the 'biggest' (unless you meant physical size?) but anyone from the small percentage who has used the campaign be it either via word of mouth, social media or carrier pigeon to spout their drivel.

It was used as a reference to stature not physical mass, but I am still interested in who these people are, that, as you stated yourself, have 'been some of the loudest' in their racist views? Please give names?