Nick
Administrator
The thread is about if it hurts ccfc or sisu isn't it? It's only going to hurt ccfc and not sisu.
The only way to hurt sisu (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter wince
- Start date
bawtryneal
Well-Known Member
The accounts are presented in a way that it is impossible to 100% clearly prove either way
I can ask you the same question, prove they are not taking money out. You are just guessing!!
Nick
Administrator
I'm not the one making the statements over and over again saying sisu are taking your money am I? I'm the one saying prove it in reply.
You can't shout they are taking your money without proving it can you? Can you not see how and why it makes it easier for Fisher?
Just "can you prove they aren't" would get you how far in the real world when using that as a basis behind an accusation?
In fact, it was something as kids in the playground that used to get used.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
exactly, it can't be proved, so why go shouting about it?
Why not concentrate on something that irrefutable, there's plenty to be getting on with.
hopesprings
Well-Known Member
I think the thread is entitled The only way to hurt SISU. It is not complex...challenge them! Who are they who invests in their funds. I believe at the time of our administration it was they who were happy to speak to the football league and argue their case. Has this been discussed again by the league? Has anybody questioned the league as to how a chairman of a football club can say on national radio that he does not care about the club ...as long as it breaks even. has the football league looked at that as being divisive, and very much against the football community as a whole not just against CCFC.
Nick
Administrator
Why would the football league do much about a club trying to live within its means though? They would actively encourage that.
hopesprings
Well-Known Member
Do they not need to know who the owners are? This really is very important "breaking even" is very laudable BUT who are the owners/ What are their interests in SISU? How much have thjose individuals whoever they are invested in SISU funds and how much influence can they exert and for what reasons...the football league should know and care and so shuld we!
I could ask you to prove you're not a murderer, but that's not how it works in our part of the world, is it?
Burden of proof is with the accuser, not the accused.
To sum it up - depriving the club of money only hurts the club - not Sisu. By not buying Season Tickets or staying away from the Ricoh, or incurring fines or points deductions lowers the clubs chances of succes, it does not increase the chances of Sisu's exit.
We covered this issue back during the administration period and as I remember it the problem is that no investor holds more than 5% (or is it 10%?) of the total investment in any of the funds and so there is no legal (in courts) obligation to disclose identity of individuals. The FA/FL cannot overturn the legal regulations and so cannot force identification of the investors.
They could change their own rules of fit & proper ownership to only accept identified individuals as owners, but it may not be so simple and it may not be something the majority of club owners would readily accept.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Man this thread is a shit show. Arguing
Ownership of a Football Club - InBrief.co.uk
Does it need changing rules? How can you apply any of those tests if you don't know who the owner is?
How do we know our owners don't have convictions or interests in other clubs?
The whole thing is a joke, the FL don't care, fit and proper persons was a PR exercise to get the government off their back.
Ownership of a Football Club - InBrief.co.uk
Does it need changing rules? How can you apply any of those tests if you don't know who the owner is?
How do we know our owners don't have convictions or interests in other clubs?
The whole thing is a joke, the FL don't care, fit and proper persons was a PR exercise to get the government off their back.
Sisu act as de facto owners, they are ultimately calling all the shots even though it's not their money. Would it be different if they had borrowed the money in the bank?
So maybe it's Joy Seppala who were subject to the test:
Individuals will be disqualified from acting as directors or becoming an owner if they:
- Are prohibited by law from being a director
Are involved or have the power to be involved in another football club - Have unspent criminal convictions
- Are bankrupt
- Have incurred administration twice as a director of the same or different football clubs
I think it's a distraction to look for help in the FL rulebook in our current situation.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
There's no help anywhere. The game is fucked and fans aren't important. Clubs are just trinkets for rich people now.
If you don't own it, it's not yours.
I think you're right it's probably Seppala as owner. "Sisu" isn't a person though. Every company is made up of people, one of which is in charge. I doubt any billionaire actually owns the club personally.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No it adds no value to the potential sale price whatsoever. So it makes zero difference to sisu.
The club has no value whatsoever and will have no value when sold.
But it shouldn't stop us helping sisu to find a way out, should it? Let's just make sure the club survive the process.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Comments. Not going to get in to discussion about this, it is my busiest time of the year and i am playing catch up following my operation
- I "pick holes" in someones argument only when i consider what is said is fundamentally wrong. I do this because over a number of years i have spent time, effort and my own money finding out the facts, then doing my best to explain them here so that the average non accountant non high flying businessman City fan can have some idea as to what is going on around their club in as close to laymans language as possible. Such comments/statements of opinion given as "reality" which are not fact confuse general understanding and creates outrage/question that obscures and confuses what really matters.
Look at this thread. The OP gives a valid opinion and it gets hijacked by fans " facts" that are no more than opinion so loses direction. Just because you think you can shout loudest or insult better does not make you right. People have a right to opinion i totally agree. I accept there may be honest and innocent misuse of words but dont then compound it by arguing a point shown to be wrong by the facts that exist. We all want the same thing - SISU gone - There are many ways we all feel we can affect that hopefully and we must each choose how and what suits each fan best. We are supposed to be on the same side.
Dismiss accounts information as audited if you choose but they are the only major sourse of information and fact. Without them we are left with a multitude of opinion and even greater confusion. You might not understand financial statements but others do and try to provide clarification. Do financial statements provide all details or transparency no they dont - but no body here is going to get access to SISU or Otium books and records so the statements are the best evidence available
I am not the only one who has tried to provide facts, knowledge etc, and there have been some good debates and a better understanding because of it. I have met the likes of Fisher and Seppala and both are used to getting their own way and driving a coach n horses through any weakness or misunderstanding. You have to be precise and accurate so that they have no room to dodge the real questions. Whilst there is doubt created by our own misdirection as to what we as fans understand then Fisher & co can misdirect and control debate unchallenged. I accept other fans do not understand all the terms and certainly do not understand all the financial set up, thats fine but do not dress up a personal opinion as cast iron fact with absolutely no evidence to support it simply confuses and misdirects other fans reading it. That damages and weakens the whole opposition to SISU
If we do not know and retain the fundamentals then the actions we can take may well be misdirected and weakened.
When someone comes on here stating as fact something that is actually completely wrong then i may well comment, and i will continue to do so. It isnt to belittle them but to help them understand, because i have years of professional knowledge & expertise i can bring to help. But I am not the only one who can do this and i can be wrong, in which case when evidence comes to light i will hold my hands up to that mistake
If a poster comes on here describing the set up as same entity, owned by SISU, in the same group, ccfc is a subsidiary then we need to understand what they are saying is not correct. If they come on here and say in much simpler language SISU control CCFC - something 99% of fans understand i am going to completely agree with them. SISU have been empowered by the investors to control the CCFC investment. Does that mean all decisions are taken by SISU - no. Does that mean money goes direct to SISU or that CCFC is part of SISU Group - no evidence available to say any money does, and CCFC definitely is not part of the group, it is clients committed investment
Fine if in your opinion there are fees being taken, money being redirected etc ............. but dont dress it it as a statement of fact. There is no evidence available to us that shows this to be happening. We need to go on what we know, what we can prove - then challenge SISU clearly and persistently (same with any other party). It is important that the fans are consistent because TF isnt and therefore our inconsistencies make his job easier.
Do all group situations include the movement of funds by management charges to another company in the group. No. Do a lot of groups do this Yes It does not automatically follow that there will be management charges.
Does a fans money increase the value of Otium. The company is massively in debt, it has more liabilities than assets by many (10s) of millions it has up to 31/05/15 negative cash flows. It is worthless with or without matchday income. What SISU are doing is holding the club to ransom - what they expect for it has no real relationship to value of Otium but what they need to repay shareholders. If Otium is sold it will be the shareholders that get the proceeds (the A-E Funds and ARVO). That will enable SISU to be paid from their 2% priority profit share that was contracted for well before CCFC came along. The fans money funds day to day running it is the player sales that may create profit and cover any shortfall
As it stands from what we actually know and on the evidence available to us to state that SISU are taking money out is an opinion. It could be true but there is no evidence to support that opinion. There is evidence that indicates there are no charges but that doesnt mean there are none
SISU shouldnt take anything - why? If they provide services are they supposed to do it for free just to keep CCFC fans happy? Does it mean they do - no thats just an opinion some hold. Their 2016 Group accounts show turnover made up from other sources - management fees would be indicated by unexplained turnover
How does Fisher get paid? Is he paid direct by ARVO or is he on a finders fee for finding future investors or owners? Who knows. To say there is something hidden in the accounts is an opinion.
Bottom line is we all want SISU to go, Everyone is entitled to an opinion, an opinion is not a fact no matter how reasonable it seems, stick to the facts it makes it harder for TF/SISU/JS (or any other party)
CCFC accounts come out 28/02/2017 - might explain whats going on a bit clearer
- I "pick holes" in someones argument only when i consider what is said is fundamentally wrong. I do this because over a number of years i have spent time, effort and my own money finding out the facts, then doing my best to explain them here so that the average non accountant non high flying businessman City fan can have some idea as to what is going on around their club in as close to laymans language as possible. Such comments/statements of opinion given as "reality" which are not fact confuse general understanding and creates outrage/question that obscures and confuses what really matters.
Look at this thread. The OP gives a valid opinion and it gets hijacked by fans " facts" that are no more than opinion so loses direction. Just because you think you can shout loudest or insult better does not make you right. People have a right to opinion i totally agree. I accept there may be honest and innocent misuse of words but dont then compound it by arguing a point shown to be wrong by the facts that exist. We all want the same thing - SISU gone - There are many ways we all feel we can affect that hopefully and we must each choose how and what suits each fan best. We are supposed to be on the same side.
Dismiss accounts information as audited if you choose but they are the only major sourse of information and fact. Without them we are left with a multitude of opinion and even greater confusion. You might not understand financial statements but others do and try to provide clarification. Do financial statements provide all details or transparency no they dont - but no body here is going to get access to SISU or Otium books and records so the statements are the best evidence available
I am not the only one who has tried to provide facts, knowledge etc, and there have been some good debates and a better understanding because of it. I have met the likes of Fisher and Seppala and both are used to getting their own way and driving a coach n horses through any weakness or misunderstanding. You have to be precise and accurate so that they have no room to dodge the real questions. Whilst there is doubt created by our own misdirection as to what we as fans understand then Fisher & co can misdirect and control debate unchallenged. I accept other fans do not understand all the terms and certainly do not understand all the financial set up, thats fine but do not dress up a personal opinion as cast iron fact with absolutely no evidence to support it simply confuses and misdirects other fans reading it. That damages and weakens the whole opposition to SISU
If we do not know and retain the fundamentals then the actions we can take may well be misdirected and weakened.
When someone comes on here stating as fact something that is actually completely wrong then i may well comment, and i will continue to do so. It isnt to belittle them but to help them understand, because i have years of professional knowledge & expertise i can bring to help. But I am not the only one who can do this and i can be wrong, in which case when evidence comes to light i will hold my hands up to that mistake
If a poster comes on here describing the set up as same entity, owned by SISU, in the same group, ccfc is a subsidiary then we need to understand what they are saying is not correct. If they come on here and say in much simpler language SISU control CCFC - something 99% of fans understand i am going to completely agree with them. SISU have been empowered by the investors to control the CCFC investment. Does that mean all decisions are taken by SISU - no. Does that mean money goes direct to SISU or that CCFC is part of SISU Group - no evidence available to say any money does, and CCFC definitely is not part of the group, it is clients committed investment
Fine if in your opinion there are fees being taken, money being redirected etc ............. but dont dress it it as a statement of fact. There is no evidence available to us that shows this to be happening. We need to go on what we know, what we can prove - then challenge SISU clearly and persistently (same with any other party). It is important that the fans are consistent because TF isnt and therefore our inconsistencies make his job easier.
Do all group situations include the movement of funds by management charges to another company in the group. No. Do a lot of groups do this Yes It does not automatically follow that there will be management charges.
Does a fans money increase the value of Otium. The company is massively in debt, it has more liabilities than assets by many (10s) of millions it has up to 31/05/15 negative cash flows. It is worthless with or without matchday income. What SISU are doing is holding the club to ransom - what they expect for it has no real relationship to value of Otium but what they need to repay shareholders. If Otium is sold it will be the shareholders that get the proceeds (the A-E Funds and ARVO). That will enable SISU to be paid from their 2% priority profit share that was contracted for well before CCFC came along. The fans money funds day to day running it is the player sales that may create profit and cover any shortfall
As it stands from what we actually know and on the evidence available to us to state that SISU are taking money out is an opinion. It could be true but there is no evidence to support that opinion. There is evidence that indicates there are no charges but that doesnt mean there are none
SISU shouldnt take anything - why? If they provide services are they supposed to do it for free just to keep CCFC fans happy? Does it mean they do - no thats just an opinion some hold. Their 2016 Group accounts show turnover made up from other sources - management fees would be indicated by unexplained turnover
How does Fisher get paid? Is he paid direct by ARVO or is he on a finders fee for finding future investors or owners? Who knows. To say there is something hidden in the accounts is an opinion.
Bottom line is we all want SISU to go, Everyone is entitled to an opinion, an opinion is not a fact no matter how reasonable it seems, stick to the facts it makes it harder for TF/SISU/JS (or any other party)
CCFC accounts come out 28/02/2017 - might explain whats going on a bit clearer
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Of course it's a PR excercise. There are loopholes and get outs all through it.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Well certainly of Jan 2017 anyway.
hill83
Well-Known Member
I was taking about my post. Thanks anyway.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
I've nothing more to add, I just fancied quoting this
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
OSB 58 has the patience of job! He is an asset to all of us on here and we should be grateful for his contributions.
As he says 'facts' are the basis of argument and deviating from them or misunderstanding them is counter productive to all of us.
Surely with this latest post from OSB58 abovethose of you still prepared to argue over facts, now have the clarity to make your post without further speculation and conjecture?
Getting rid of our 'fat controllers' is paramount to us all and its more helpful to do that if we all come to an understanding of the facts and work from them sensibly, and not for self deluded interest as a poster.
Thank you OSB58 for your contributions and I hope you continue.
As he says 'facts' are the basis of argument and deviating from them or misunderstanding them is counter productive to all of us.
Surely with this latest post from OSB58 abovethose of you still prepared to argue over facts, now have the clarity to make your post without further speculation and conjecture?
Getting rid of our 'fat controllers' is paramount to us all and its more helpful to do that if we all come to an understanding of the facts and work from them sensibly, and not for self deluded interest as a poster.
Thank you OSB58 for your contributions and I hope you continue.
hopesprings
Well-Known Member
Well said Paxman it would be so much easier to have useful debates and suggestions as to how we can affect Sisu and how we can all try and get them to either go or to change their attitude to us fans and get the club moving forward in harmony. Must admit the latter option doesn't seem at all likely but I live in hope!!!
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Otis.
The Reverend Skyblue
Well-Known Member
Sorry Cov man i haven't replied earlier but I have only just seen your post.
The answer IMO to the first two are the same, sadly CCFC presently has no value whatsoever before or after I spend money with them.
My money pays for the running of the academy, the players wages and the coaching team, it does not add value to the club at all.
That's how I see it. By the way living near Norwich for the last four years and before that ten years in France I haven't had a season ticket for quite some, but I do go to a few games at the Ricoh especially as I've had a daughter at Warwick Uni for three years so I combine the two as much as poss.I do spend money online in the club shop and all my friends/ family buy Cov stuff for me every Xmas and birthdays so I do my bit contribution wise.
As for the last question the only answer is only SISU will benefit from the sale of Cov, but surely it will only be enough to repay the Argo loan and other companies they have used to fund us.
I'm no accountant by the way but with the clubs current state with no assets at all they won't come out of this mess with multi millions left over
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Surely the fans of the club stand to benefit the most if SISU were to sell up.
By the way Rev, where about's are you near Norwich?
thank you your welcome
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
That presupposes Sisu want a way out. Nothing is stopping them selling the club, they just don't want to.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Or they haven't had a offer they can accept yet?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
They can accept any offer. The club is worthless, the question is how much do they want for the debt. If they're holding out for £60m or whatever the fuck is our debt these days (what is our debt?) then they're mental.
The Reverend Skyblue
Well-Known Member
I live in Diss 20 odd miles to the south. Do you live in Norfolk
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
In Suffolk but on the border, "not so sunny Lowestoft "
The Reverend Skyblue
Well-Known Member
Your my second favourite too Otis, what kind words from you about me.
The Reverend Skyblue
Well-Known Member
We should start an East Anglian branch of the skyblues supporters club, there's quite a few of us in the sticks around here.
Could hire minibuses etc and get to the odd game together
Great post by OSB58................what it does highlight though sadly is that our owners are a slippery bunch not to be trusted and there are just too many 'don't know the realities' involved which is so wrong for a community football club. The lack of transparency will always lead to suspicion.......especially when cost cutting and asset stripping continue, yet results and performances on the pitch are still way below expectation.
