The only way to hurt sisu (3 Viewers)

[covman]

No I support CCFC, you are really still failing to grasp that.

I'm not filling their pockets, you said the other day my ticket money goes into the running of CCFC. Make up your mind.

There's been some real desperation from random posters who haven't posted for a good while to push NOPM home, why's that? Why so keen to try and harm CCFC?

Your ticket money may go to any part of the club. How they spend it is up to them. This week it may go on players wages next week it might be paying for teabags at Ryton. Running costs are maintaining the asset that one day they will sell!

You would have to ask them. Maybe they understand what they are talking about.

 

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[Nick]

It isn't true that SISU will not benefit from getting your ticket money.

Forget all the bullshit about the links between CCFC and SISU. I could not give a crap about how they make their accounts look.

The simple fact is that by paying into CCFC you are personally benefitting SISU. A company who had pulled YOUR club to shreds.

Surely it is "our" club?

What do you mean forget the bullshit, by bullshit do you mean the facts about the difference between CCFC and SISU?

It isn't much of a simple fact is it, as you can't back it up or prove it can you?

My ticket money is certainly benefitting CCFC because it goes towards running the club, if there was less ticket money then the outgoings from the club would be cut to suit.

 

[Nick]

Your ticket money may go to any part of the club. How they spend it is up to them. This week it may go on players wages next week it might be paying for teabags at Ryton. Running costs are maintaining the asset that one day they will sell!

You would have to ask them. Maybe they understand what they are talking about.

Yes, it goes towards running the club which I have no issue with at all.

It seems not many of them have a clue what they are talking about, that's another part of the pattern along with they haven't been on for years, another part of the pattern is that they have absolutely no idea about the actual football.

What number attempt is this to try and say my money is going to SISU? It must be the 4th or 5th different explanation?

 

[covman]

Surely it is "our" club?

What do you mean forget the bullshit, by bullshit do you mean the facts about the difference between CCFC and SISU?

It isn't much of a simple fact is it, as you can't back it up or prove it can you?

My ticket money is certainly benefitting CCFC because it goes towards running the club, if there was less ticket money then the outgoings from the club would be cut to suit.

Ok clearly you are just never going to understand. Whether this is because you can't or just don't want to I don't know. What I would say is that SISU must be smiling with glee that we have fans like you.

 

[Nick]

Ok clearly you are just never going to understand. Whether this is because you can't or just don't want to I don't know. What I would say is that SISU must be smiling with glee that we have fans like you.

Ah, "fans like me". That old chestnut.

I am quite open to understanding, maybe let somebody like OSB explain it to me that doesn't need 4 or 5 different attempts with different explanations to get it across but still can't prove it with facts, just "ifs" and "maybes".

Feel free to go off and push you shit somewhere else, you seem to not like it when people just don't swallow it on here.

 

[covman]

Ah, "fans like me". That old chestnut.

I am quite open to understanding, maybe let somebody like OSB explain it to me that doesn't need 4 or 5 different attempts with different explanations to get it across but still can't prove it with facts, just "ifs" and "maybes".

Feel free to go off and push you shit somewhere else, you seem to not like it when people just don't swallow it on here.

Oh I'm going no where don't worry about that. In fact it seems like I should get on here a bit more often in future to negate all the misconceptions you seem to push.

When you are trying to explain something and someone doesn't understand (or pretends not to in your case) you need to explain it in a different way. Hence the 4 or 5 attempts. This is not rocket science. It's basic education.

 

[Nick]

Oh I'm going no where don't worry about that. In fact it seems like I should get on here a bit more often in future to negate all the misconceptions you seem to push.

When you are trying to explain something and someone doesn't understand (or pretends not to in your case) you need to explain it in a different way. Hence the 4 or 5 attempts. This is not rocket science. It's basic education.

Really? So why are the explanations different?

I'm not the one pushing any misconceptions or statements, I have asked you to prove how my money goes to SISU and have never seen any facts. I have seen 4 or 5 different stories and a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" but no solid proof.

The thread was about how to hurt SISU, the reasons given would only hurt CCFC.

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

Really? So why are the explanations different?

I'm not the one pushing any misconceptions or statements, I have asked you to prove how my money goes to SISU and have never seen any facts. I have seen 4 or 5 different stories and a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" but no solid proof.

The thread was about how to hurt SISU, the reasons given would only hurt CCFC.

They can't prove any season or match day ticket money goes to SISU
It's desperation yet the facts as seen by many more knowledgable people than me shows that no money reaches SISU's bank account.
Yes I agree SISU have the final word on what happens here but to date no one can find after nearly ten years that money goes directly into SISU's accounts.
I pray for the day they leave but they certainly are not fleecing the club like so many think they are.
If SISU just got rid of that village idiot Fisher some reconciliation could start . The bloke is an out of control egomaniac.
SISU do not fleece the club fact. They are fucking useless owners and employ brain dead incompetents , fact.

 

[Nick]

They can't prove any season or match day ticket money goes to SISU
It's desperation yet the facts as seen by many more knowledgable people than me shows that no money reaches SISU's bank account.
Yes I agree SISU have the final word on what happens here but to date no one can find after nearly ten years that money goes directly into SISU's accounts.
I pray for the day they leave but they certainly are not fleecing the club like so many think they are.
If SISU just got rid of that village idiot Fisher some reconciliation could start . The bloke is an out of control egomaniac.
SISU do not fleece the club fact. They are fucking useless owners and employ brain dead incompetents , fact.

What's it desperation for though? Why would people be desperate to push that and harm ccfc.

That's what baffles me.

 

[wince]

No I have always said any action would hurt ccfc , the point has always been how much action away from Joy and Tims day day life for ccfc ,would be non cost effective for them to make £1000000 ,

 

[wince]

This might be the dumbest thread I have ever read on this site. Congratulations

yes sorry your right maybe I'm a moron I don't know you but your views must be right its a fans forum for your views once again soz

 

[clint van damme]

Stop picking holes in people's arguments just because of their wrong choice of language (subsidiary). People on here are football fans not accountants and buisness leaders. You know the point he is trying to make. SISU have done a good job in dissociating themselves with CCFC officially and on paper but let's not kid ourselves about who pulls the strings and who will benefit from any sale.

so why do so many football fans want 'their' club liquidated?

 

[covman]

What's it desperation for though? Why would people be desperate to push that and harm ccfc.

That's what baffles me.

By supporting the owners? I have no idea.

 

[covman]

They can't prove any season or match day ticket money goes to SISU
It's desperation yet the facts as seen by many more knowledgable people than me shows that no money reaches SISU's bank account.
Yes I agree SISU have the final word on what happens here but to date no one can find after nearly ten years that money goes directly into SISU's accounts.
I pray for the day they leave but they certainly are not fleecing the club like so many think they are.
If SISU just got rid of that village idiot Fisher some reconciliation could start . The bloke is an out of control egomaniac.
SISU do not fleece the club fact. They are fucking useless owners and employ brain dead incompetents , fact.

Couple of simple questions for you.

Do you add value to CCFC when you give them 350 pounds for a season ticket?

Is the company more valuable before or after you have paid them?

Who gets the money when CCFC gets sold?

If you are really interested in this issue you will answer these questions sensibly.

 

[bawtryneal]

They can't prove any season or match day ticket money goes to SISU
It's desperation yet the facts as seen by many more knowledgable people than me shows that no money reaches SISU's bank account.
Yes I agree SISU have the final word on what happens here but to date no one can find after nearly ten years that money goes directly into SISU's accounts.
I pray for the day they leave but they certainly are not fleecing the club like so many think they are.
If SISU just got rid of that village idiot Fisher some reconciliation could start . The bloke is an out of control egomaniac.
SISU do not fleece the club fact. They are fucking useless owners and employ brain dead incompetents , fact.

I don't believe SISU fleece the club but to suggest they take no money from CCFC is nonsense. I have posted on here several times that if SISU take no money, then what it is the point of owning CCFC
I own 5 operating companies and each one pays a management charge to a holding company every month.
SISU take management charges/operating expenses/accounting charges etc. Call it what you like but "some money" leaves CCFC for SISU to cover Fisher and other group related costs.

 

[bawtryneal]

Surely it is "our" club?

What do you mean forget the bullshit, by bullshit do you mean the facts about the difference between CCFC and SISU?

It isn't much of a simple fact is it, as you can't back it up or prove it can you?

My ticket money is certainly benefitting CCFC because it goes towards running the club, if there was less ticket money then the outgoings from the club would be cut to suit.

Sadly it is no longer "our club". It may still be the team we love and support but not our club. Our owners will do with the club (CCFC) as they please to suit their own agenda. They have already proved that fact.
I agree that your season ticket benefits the club and I also agree NOPM hurts the club but also understand that a % of your money goes to SISU
If you buy the Sun newspaper a % goes to Rupert Murdoch. It's not complicated Nick.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

. I have posted on here several times that if SISU take no money, then what it is the point of owning CCFC

To try and take some money in the future.

There's enough to dislike about an entity that owns a club for a financial motive, without the idle speculation.

 

[Godiva]

Couple of simple questions for you.

Ok, I'll play ...

Do you add value to CCFC when you give them 350 pounds for a season ticket?

Yes

Is the company more valuable before or after you have paid them?

Yes

Who gets the money when CCFC gets sold?

If the money hasn't been spend then it simply stays in the clubs coffers (or bank account).
Money spend to buy the club will come from the new owners pocket.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Which begs the question, why don't they take a seat on the board of The Trust? Seats are available for more input on how to tackle SISU.

Why not just accept feedback and suggestions? Do you have to be on the board to have ideas implemented? The standard response which you and others give would lead people to believe that. Thus creating the image of a closed shop? Bit like the SCG?

 

[bawtryneal]

To try and take some money in the future.

There's enough to dislike about an entity that owns a club for a financial motive, without the idle speculation.

It's not idle speculation, look at the accounts
I don't see the problem with SISU taking money from the club. What do people expect them to do?
I am just debating against Nick who believes they take no money.
Every business on the planet which is part of a structure that feeds into a "family tree" structure to support shareholders and dividend payments operates in this manner. SISU are no different

 

[SkyBlueZack]

I don't believe SISU fleece the club but to suggest they take no money from CCFC is nonsense. I have posted on here several times that if SISU take no money, then what it is the point of owning CCFC
I own 5 operating companies and each one pays a management charge to a holding company every month.
SISU take management charges/operating expenses/accounting charges etc. Call it what you like but "some money" leaves CCFC for SISU to cover Fisher and other group related costs.

Yeah but isn't that money to cover the running costs? As fisher is chairman, wouldn't his salary be considered a running cost? I don't for one moment believe he's doing it out of the goodness of his heart. If money was going to buy designer clothes fir joy it would be different? That wouldn't be a running cost.

 

[Godiva]

It's not idle speculation, look at the accounts
I don't see the problem with SISU taking money from the club. What do people expect them to do?
I am just debating against Nick who believes they take no money.
Every business on the planet which is part of a structure that feeds into a "family tree" structure to support shareholders and dividend payments operates in this manner. SISU are no different

You should read this thread: SISU 2016 Accounts
Especially the posts written by OSB (who is a qualified auditor, so knows this kind of stuff).

If you're too lazy, then let me extract some of his conclusions:
1) Sisu have not invested any money themselves, they manage other peoples money.
2) Sisu make their income by charging the actual investors a small percentage of the money they manage.
3) There are nothing in any accounts that indicate that Sisu take out any(!) money from CCFC.

OSB also urge people to challenge Sisu on what they actually do that we can prove as facts. We are making their life much, much easier if we challenge them on things we make up ourselves.

 

[bawtryneal]

Yeah but isn't that money to cover the running costs? As fisher is chairman, wouldn't his salary be considered a running cost? I don't for one moment believe he's doing it out of the goodness of his heart. If money was going to buy designer clothes fir joy it would be different? That wouldn't be a running cost.

For sure, they are taking running costs and interest on the loans.

 

[bawtryneal]

You should read this thread: SISU 2016 Accounts
Especially the posts written by OSB (who is a qualified auditor, so knows this kind of stuff).

If you're too lazy, then let me extract some of his conclusions:
1) Sisu have not invested any money themselves, they manage other peoples money.
2) Sisu make their income by charging the actual investors a small percentage of the money they manage.
3) There are nothing in any accounts that indicate that Sisu take out any(!) money from CCFC.

OSB also urge people to challenge Sisu on what they actually do that we can prove as facts. We are making their life much, much easier if we challenge them on things we make up ourselves.

OSB does not say SISU categorically do not take any money out of CCFC. He states it is impossible to identify in the way the final accounts are published.
And please don't be patronising. I have read the accounts throughly and fully understand how companies like SISU operate.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

For sure, they are taking running costs and interest on the loans.

Interest is being charged but not taken out I believe? I don't mind them taking expenses for work done etc. I don't mind them getting back the money they have put in. Not sure why they bother with charging interest as the chance of them achieving that back is nil.

 

[covman]

To try and take some money in the future.

There's enough to dislike about an entity that owns a club for a financial motive, without the idle speculation.

It doesn't matter whether they take it now or in ten years time, they will at some point benefit from the money that goes into CCFC.

 

[Godiva]

OSB does not say SISU categorically do not take any money out of CCFC. He states it is impossible to identify in the way the final accounts are published.
And please don't be patronising. I have read the accounts throughly and fully understand how companies like SISU operate.

Correct, he says 'everything is possible'. But he can't find any proof or evidence. So, to the best of his abillity he can't find anything that indicates that money goes from CCFC to Sisu. You may be better qualified than he is, but then you will have to present evidence not conjecture.

You - and many others - don't understand why Sisu is holding on if they do not take any money from the club. OSB then tells us how Sisu actually make their money indirectly from owning the club (without having to take out one penny from the club):
They make a small percentage from the investors who have put the money into the club (Funds A-E and ARVO).

He also gives an explanation why it's not in their interest to abandon their ownership of CCFC:
All - or some - of the investments that are in fact now worthless will have to be written off and at that point will crystalize a loss.

 

[Godiva]

Interest is being charged but not taken out I believe? I don't mind them taking expenses for work done etc. I don't mind them getting back the money they have put in. Not sure why they bother with charging interest as the chance of them achieving that back is nil.

Yes, that would seem logic, but the interests become an asset in the creditors accounts and so increase the value of the investments sisu manage. That agin could(!) lead to higher income for Sisu as their portfolio increase in value, but that is pure speculation.
More importantly - increasing the debts acts as a protection against hostile take over (like we saw back in 2013) and it leaves Sisu in total control of when they want to sell and who they want to sell to.

 

[bawtryneal]

Correct, he says 'everything is possible'. But he can't find any proof or evidence. So, to the best of his abillity he can't find anything that indicates that money goes from CCFC to Sisu. You may be better qualified than he is, but then you will have to present evidence not conjecture.

You - and many others - don't understand why Sisu is holding on if they do not take any money from the club. OSB then tells us how Sisu actually make their money indirectly from owning the club (without having to take out one penny from the club):
They make a small percentage from the investors who have put the money into the club (Funds A-E and ARVO).

He also gives an explanation why it's not in their interest to abandon their ownership of CCFC:
All - or some - of the investments that are in fact now worthless will have to be written off and at that point will crystalize a loss.

I fully understand why they are "holding on" but that isn't the point of this debate. I fully understand and agree they are not removing large amounts from CCFC , again not the discussion here.
I am suggesting they are taking small but fair and reasonable "management charges". Again, I have no issue with this but debating against those who say SISU take nothing.

One question .....How do you think Fisher gets compensated ?

 

[clint van damme]

You should read this thread: SISU 2016 Accounts
Especially the posts written by OSB (who is a qualified auditor, so knows this kind of stuff).

If you're too lazy, then let me extract some of his conclusions:
1) Sisu have not invested any money themselves, they manage other peoples money.
2) Sisu make their income by charging the actual investors a small percentage of the money they manage.
3) There are nothing in any accounts that indicate that Sisu take out any(!) money from CCFC.

OSB also urge people to challenge Sisu on what they actually do that we can prove as facts. We are making their life much, much easier if we challenge them on things we make up ourselves.

great post, (as is the post by OSB you refer to), and the last line is perhaps the most important.
We have plenty of sticks to beat sisu up with, no need to make up bullshit and undermine all the genuine arguments.

 

[Godiva]

I fully understand why they are "holding on" but that isn't the point of this debate. I fully understand and agree they are not removing large amounts from CCFC , again not the discussion here.
I am suggesting they are taking small but fair and reasonable "management charges". Again, I have no issue with this but debating against those who say SISU take nothing.

One question .....How do you think Fisher gets compensated ?

I wouldn't accept if they took out 'small and reasonably amounts' no matter what they label it (management fee, interest payment, down payment ...) when they say they take nothing. The only time it would seem they have taken money back is a season or two ago when it seems they facilitated a short term emergency loan to cover a cash flow shortfall.

How does Fischer gets compensated? Good question. And if he doesn't get paid a wage, then why does he stay on and take all the abuse he gets?
The only explanation I can think of is that his job is to sell the club at a (in sisu's mind) reasonable price and subsequently will receive a commission or finders fee as a percentage of the sale.
But if that's the case, then Fischer is working in the interest of the fans and that would be exceptionally hard to understand and accept for most people.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

It doesn't matter whether they take it now or in ten years time, they will at some point benefit from the money that goes into CCFC.

Not necessarily, if their intention is to inflate an asking price from nothing to something... or if they intend to try and gain profits from something other than CCFC

 

[Nick]

It's not idle speculation, look at the accounts
I don't see the problem with SISU taking money from the club. What do people expect them to do?
I am just debating against Nick who believes they take no money.
Every business on the planet which is part of a structure that feeds into a "family tree" structure to support shareholders and dividend payments operates in this manner. SISU are no different

I've said prove that money is taken before telling everybody it is. Instead it's just guessing.

 

[Nick]

For sure, they are taking running costs and interest on the loans.

Are they?

 

[hopesprings]

I wouldn't accept if they took out 'small and reasonably amounts' no matter what they label it (management fee, interest payment, down payment ...) when they say they take nothing. The only time it would seem they have taken money back is a season or two ago when it seems they facilitated a short term emergency loan to cover a cash flow shortfall.

How does Fischer gets compensated? Good question. And if he doesn't get paid a wage, then why does he stay on and take all the abuse he gets?
The only explanation I can think of is that his job is to sell the club at a (in sisu's mind) reasonable price and subsequently will receive a commission or finders fee as a percentage of the sale.
But if that's the case, then Fischer is working in the interest of the fans and that would be exceptionally hard to understand and accept for most people.

At the nub of this whole Sisu business should be WHO ARE THEY? No one knows ! As I have said before this is and should be a real concern to all football fans and the authorities, ie Football league , fa etc. The people who invested millions in SISU funds could be any body, including owners of other football clubs! Their influence over Seppalla and Fisher could be massive and could very well be why so many seemingly illogical steps are taken by Fisher, for seemingly so little reward. The FL need to be challenged again and again on this !