Mean while back in court (13 Viewers)

[Nick]

So now they are talking about the rent strike, which the judge said was irrelevant yesterday? Make their minds up.

 

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[Nick]

Just hire a PR firm or something to post anti Sisu stuff on every article on the telegraph.... oh wait.

Can you imagine the headlines if it was the other way round and it was showing that SISU were bullshitting? In fact they have, and do and get slaughtered for it.

No mention if it is from a council, to it's tax payers though...

 

[chiefdave]

Thing that frustrates me is that there are rules and guidelines for many types of state aid that all follow the same basic process. Its a process you should go though to ensure you can't be accused of incorrectly providing state aid.

There's a lot in there that the council haven't done but because of the way it has been done they seem to be able to say those rules don't apply to this situation.

Things like independent advice, placing on the open market to achieve best price etc. Things that you would expect to happen no matter if it is a rule or not but that haven't happened.

 

[Nick]

What does this mean?

Sisu QC says Wasps paid £3.78m to the council for an asset which now appears to be worth almost £50m.
He says they also paid £2.77m to Higgs - although he doesn’t think it’s clear what for as it appears to be a “ransom strip”.

Was it 3.78? I thought it was about 5.7 or is that including the extension?

 

[chiefdave]

ransom strip is when you own a piece of land that prevents access to another piece of land. So for example I owned the piece of land you needed to cross to get to your house but put up a massive fence and didn't allow you access.

Not sure how that relates to Higgs or ACL.

 

[Nick]

ransom strip is when you own a piece of land that prevents access to another piece of land. So for example I owned the piece of land you needed to cross to get to your house but put up a massive fence and didn't allow you access.

Not sure how that relates to Higgs or ACL.

Unless they mean they needed the higgs share to get what they wanted? ie 100% and a long lease etc?

 

[Specs WT-R75]

I don't like this latest comment from Sisu. They can't claim ACL wasn't worth the mortgage one minute, and then say that CCC have undervalued with sale to Wasps the next.... unless they are claiming that the only way the value can go up that much is with a massively undervalued lease... but I am not sure how that is state aid in the context of this particular case (obviously this is the angle for JR2).

 

[chiefdave]

Unless they mean they needed the higgs share to get what they wanted? ie 100% and a long lease etc?

Could be I guess. Wasps wouldn't have had total control of ACL without Higgs share so may not have been able to have control over an extended lease negociation.

 

[fernandopartridge]

What does this mean?



Was it 3.78? I thought it was about 5.7 or is that including the extension?

It's £2.78m + £1m for extension

 

[Nick]

It's £2.78m + £1m for extension

So where's the 5 million or so figure come from in the press etc? 5.75 or whatever?

Edit: That was just to the council, the higgs share on top adds up to it to get £6.55

 

[fernandopartridge]

Thing that frustrates me is that there are rules and guidelines for many types of state aid that all follow the same basic process. Its a process you should go though to ensure you can't be accused of incorrectly providing state aid.

There's a lot in there that the council haven't done but because of the way it has been done they seem to be able to say those rules don't apply to this situation.

Things like independent advice, placing on the open market to achieve best price etc. Things that you would expect to happen no matter if it is a rule or not but that haven't happened.

The judge may find against the council, otherwise it gives authorities carte blanche to do what they like really. Not getting independent advice and bringing more state aid claims to court and ultimately cost the state more money.

 

[chiefdave]

So where's the 5 million or so figure come from in the press etc? 5.75 or whatever?

It was £5.6m for ACL (50% from Higgs, 50% from CCC) and then another million to CCC for the lease.

 

[Nick]

It was £5.6m for ACL (50% from Higgs, 50% from CCC) and then another million to CCC for the lease.

Just edited now I figured it out It's a long day!

 

[Nick]

The judge may find against the council, otherwise it gives authorities carte blanche to do what they like really. Not getting independent advice and bringing more state aid claims to court and ultimately cost the state more money.

I'm not sure, can see it being thrown out again.

 

[Chipfat]

Will a decision be made today Nick, or will they come back in weeks.

 

[chiefdave]

I'm not sure, can see it being thrown out again.

And then we can move on to JR2: The Sequel

 

[Nick]

Will a decision be made today Nick, or will they come back in weeks.

No idea, my only judging experience is making a murderer and thats been going on years!

 

[chiefdave]

No idea, my only judging experience is making a murderer and thats been going on years!

Wonder if the SISU lawyer has drawn a picture of Ann and hung it up in his office?

 

[Brylowes]

I don't think you can say 'the fans' as we were never unified in this. I seem to remember fans representatives urging CCC not to do a deal with the club.

But the fans are just that, fans. We are not really qualified to form a considered opinion, following your football club
You don't expect to be caught up in all this hi-brow legal shenanigans. All the major players in this mess should
hang their heads in shame.

 

[Captain Dart]

ransom strip is when you own a piece of land that prevents access to another piece of land. So for example I owned the piece of land you needed to cross to get to your house but put up a massive fence and didn't allow you access.

Not sure how that relates to Higgs or ACL.

Here is Car Park C, the blue one, how does that block access to anything? Definitely possible to develop something there, but still needs to retain a lot of parking or it messes up Arena capacity for big events, if only there was a direct rail service! :thinking about:

 

[Nick]

Here is Car Park C, the blue one, how does that block access to anything?

View attachment 5004

He was on about Higgs wasn't he with Wasps?

 

[Nick]

Wonder if the SISU lawyer has drawn a picture of Ann and hung it up in his office?

Or ann Lucas on TV.

"We wouldn't mess about with stuff with SISU, we would just have them all killed".

 

[fernandopartridge]

Here is Car Park C, the blue one, how does that block access to anything?

View attachment 5004

I wonder whether it's referred to as a ransom strip because it clearly isn't worth nearly £3m as it has relatively limited development potential, but, having to pay that much for it as part of a wider deal is holding the buyer to ransom?

 

[Captain Dart]

So where's the 5 million or so figure come from in the press etc? 5.75 or whatever?

Edit: That was just to the council, the higgs share on top adds up to it to get £6.55

Simple maths (for me anyway) 2 x 2.78 = 5.56.

 

[Captain Dart]

He was on about Higgs wasn't he with Wasps?

I was on about "how on earth can you call Car park C" a ransom strip? Please do tell.

 

[Nick]

Simple maths (for me anyway) 2 x 2.78 = 5.56.

I did put it in the edit, I didn't click to start

The extension money threw me

 

[Captain Dart]

I wonder whether it's referred to as a ransom strip because it clearly isn't worth nearly £3m as it has relatively limited development potential, but, having to pay that much for it as part of a wider deal is holding the buyer to ransom?

No the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors define it thus.. http://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/glossary/ransom-strips/

 

[Nick]

No the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors define it thus.. http://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/glossary/ransom-strips/

I took it as they needed higgs to get the bigger picture.

 

[Hobo]

The judge may find against the council, otherwise it gives authorities carte blanche to do what they like really. Not getting independent advice and bringing more state aid claims to court and ultimately cost the state more money.

the council have always been very confident it wasn't state aid and therefore the guidelines don't apply. Down to the court to decide I suppose.

 

[fernandopartridge]

No the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors define it thus.. http://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/glossary/ransom-strips/

I am not bothered about that, I am talking about the SISU lawyer's interpretation. Over valuing a piece of land blocks its development potential doesn't it.

 

[chiefdave]

Justice Tomlinson says: “You plainly can’t require the repayment of the loan, because it’s now been repaid.”
Sisu QC says they are not sure about the state of the loan, and whether it’s actually been repaid by Wasps and if what they have now is a new loan.

Is he saying the bonds are effectively a loan that has been used to pay the council loan and they should therefore order the bonds to be repaid? Can't imagine thats likley.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I am going out on a limb, but I think SISU may win this time but the claim for compensation will as good as fail.

 

[John_Silletts_Nose]

Sounds as if we're approaching a technical issue. If damages are paid to SISU who will pay them, and if it's the government, why aren't they in court? Adjournment imminent?

It sounds as if this could open a new angle to the whole case by involving the government into the case by making the claim for damages to be paid by them. This would then cause the government to have legal representation to fight the case or just pay it to reduce time and costs.

 

[Hobo]

I am going out on a limb, but I think SISU may win this time but the claim for compensation will as good as fail.

I think that might be a good call.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I think that might be a good call.

.....and I think SISU know that but they're teeing up information for JR2 anyway