Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Whichever way it goes rest assured all the pros will go to the privileged and all the cons to those that actually need help the most.
The EU referendum (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Otis
- Start date
Whichever way it goes rest assured all the pros will go to the privileged and all the cons to those that actually need help the most.
AngryAnt
Well-Known Member
Expect a cat & dog fight between Theresa May and Michael Gove too. It was only Cameron's intervention that stopped her from tearing him apart last time.
Can't stand either of them, but I'd pay to watch that!
For what its worth I also work in the NHS and have done so for the past twenty years. There are many people working in the NHS who have come from abroad, but there are also many many NHS workers from the UK.
Its a topic of conversation that has cropped up many times at work and I can in all honesty say I have never heard an overseas worker suggest they would leave based on a 'no' vote.
If you are correct and it would become an issue then as a nation we would have to take the consequences. I personally dont think it would ever come to that as most of the overseas workers I work with dont seem to link xenophobia with a vote to leave Europe.
Its a topic of conversation that has cropped up many times at work and I can in all honesty say I have never heard an overseas worker suggest they would leave based on a 'no' vote.
If you are correct and it would become an issue then as a nation we would have to take the consequences. I personally dont think it would ever come to that as most of the overseas workers I work with dont seem to link xenophobia with a vote to leave Europe.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Nobody can think of any pro's to retaining Michael Gove in the EU though
...onwards & upwards PUSB
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
But what one person believes is a positive - another believes is a negative. Because both leaving AND staying with the new 'special staus' presents us with so many unknown outcomes nobody can tell us the facts either.
That probably means all we can really do is vote with our hearts or gut feelings...recipe for disaster really isn't it?
...onwards & upwards PUSB
This is a reply to Sick Boy from one of his earlier comments. Sorry but for some reason it wont link to the original comment it is realted to.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Successive governments have demonstrated that the 'party in power' doesn't really positively or negatively change the vast majority of people's lives in a particularly major way - so whatever happens...the vast majority are ambivalent to it.
The British gov't is elected yes...but is still at the behest of its party paymasters (=a different bunch of faceless unelected money grabbers to the EU...but in essence much the same). They do not bite the hand that feeds them - hence the changes banking have taken so long to put together & agree...the ambivalent majority has prevailed now...so any real reforming regulations have long since been watered-down.
...onwards & upwards PUSB
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
A positive could be that the 'exodus' would mean loads of what the business leaders would refer to as 'menial jobs' would need filling. There would be no need for a 'living wage' as they would have to pay well to fill the vacancies. That would mean fewer benefits & reduced taxes for us all.
Sounds like a plan to me!
...onwards & upwards PUSB
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
You don't mean 'get the great unwashed/benefits for life' into work?
They be a revolt!
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Iain Duncan Smith on BBC this morning.
A thoroughly decent, straight talking Patriot.
He dismissed Brexit scare stories, saying Britain was the "greatest country on earth" with the "most brilliant people".
It was, he said, more than capable of prospering outside the EU, which he said was more of a "political project" than a "defined economic entity".
"The UK has faced bigger trials than this. It has stood alone in war but it has also defined trade around the world," he told the Andrew Marr Show.
"Britain is a phenomenal country. It has stood alone and fought for freedom. It has been a global trader, it can again be a global trader.
"Why would we have such a low opinion of the British people that we going about talking about a leap in the dark and profound shocks?"
Well said sir.
A thoroughly decent, straight talking Patriot.
He dismissed Brexit scare stories, saying Britain was the "greatest country on earth" with the "most brilliant people".
It was, he said, more than capable of prospering outside the EU, which he said was more of a "political project" than a "defined economic entity".
"The UK has faced bigger trials than this. It has stood alone in war but it has also defined trade around the world," he told the Andrew Marr Show.
"Britain is a phenomenal country. It has stood alone and fought for freedom. It has been a global trader, it can again be a global trader.
"Why would we have such a low opinion of the British people that we going about talking about a leap in the dark and profound shocks?"
Well said sir.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
It's always good to approach everything with cynicism.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Yep. How is 'Britain is the greatest country on earth' going to persuade me that either the EU is a good or a bad thing?!?
dutchman
Well-Known Member
I suppose this bloke was less of a patriot?
Killed by benefits cuts: Starving soldier died 'as result of Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reform'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-benefits-cuts-starving-soldier-3923771
Killed by benefits cuts: Starving soldier died 'as result of Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reform'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-benefits-cuts-starving-soldier-3923771
dutchman
Well-Known Member
That was precisely my point. He was more of a patriot than Iain Duncan Smith yet was killed by the latter's welfare reforms.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Most certainly!!
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
Sky News report Q&A on if UK quit EU. How will it affect you?
http://news.sky.com/story/1650373/if-uk-quits-eu-answers-to-the-key-questions?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
http://news.sky.com/story/1650373/if-uk-quits-eu-answers-to-the-key-questions?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
The first answer there shows exactly why this is a waste of time
Broadly we know what staying in the EU means. Nobody knows what leaving means. You're voting on a wing and a prayer. To have a proper referendum this all needs to be sorted out ahead of time so we know what voting no actually means.
Similar to the Scottish referendum really. You had the SNP saying Scotland would be in Europe when nothing had been agreed, same with keeping the pound.
Looking at the economic forecasts the uncertainty of leaving poses a lot more risk. At the very least you'd have a two year period of instability whilst everything was being sorted.
Broadly we know what staying in the EU means. Nobody knows what leaving means. You're voting on a wing and a prayer. To have a proper referendum this all needs to be sorted out ahead of time so we know what voting no actually means.
Similar to the Scottish referendum really. You had the SNP saying Scotland would be in Europe when nothing had been agreed, same with keeping the pound.
Looking at the economic forecasts the uncertainty of leaving poses a lot more risk. At the very least you'd have a two year period of instability whilst everything was being sorted.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
That's true.
A vote to stay means you accept that our democratically elected government has no control over who and how many EU citizens (soon to include Turkey's 80million muslims) enter our country.
It means you're happy that our own laws will be decided by politicians from other nations.
A stay vote means that our business will continue to be prevented from trading freely with markets outside the EU.
Don't believe all the scare stories the stay campaign is spouting.
skybluetom
Member
It always makes me laugh around election times, or more particularly local election times when people are pulling their hair out because of the low turnout who can't seem to grasp this fact. People don't vote for two very simple reasons: the vast majority of people in this country live very comfortable lives and no government red or blue really make any attempt to interfere. We're free to do pretty much whatever we want in this country within reason, which is a very good thing obviously, so nobody really cares who is in government.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Possibly. But there is also an argument that our electoral system puts people off from voting, especially if they don't support one of the main parties, as they feel their vote doesn't count. It also makes people more likely to vote for one of the main parties.
For example you might agree with the majority of green party policies but either don't vote at all as you know they have no chance or vote for someone else as a green vote is a waste.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
So if we have an out vote are you saying there will be no more freedom of movement? What about all the British citizens that live in mainland Europe?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Because clearly at the moment we only trade with EU countries :facepalm:
Can you tell us what trade agreements are in place should we leave the EU. We may lose our trade rights in Europe so I assume something better has been put in place to replace them?
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Haha.
Bearing in mind our EU imports are greater than EU exports, why on earth do you imagine we'd lose our trade rights in Europe? :facepalm:
As I said, don't believe all the scare stories the stay campaign is spouting.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
You're missing the point. You have no way of know what the situation will be should we leave the EU as it hasn't been agreed yet. Do you really think the likes of France, Germany and the rest of Europe are going to let us cherry pick the things we want to keep and bin those we don't? Of course they won't. It will be a situation where they will say you can have x but to get that you must agree to y.
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
We are currently over ruled in most aspects by un-elected officials we can neither vote for or remove. Stay in at your peril. We would lose further powers to Brussels become an integrated society with even more immigration forced upon us. The way you live, have been brought up and the society you recognize will change rapidly. Is that what you want?
the belief that we are in the world's largest single market is false.
have a good look at how Europe is doing. It's been going down the toilet for years. a failed currency, mass unemployment and don't even get me started on Greece!
We are a sovereign nation able to trade where we want with who we want when we leave. we have the world's 5th largest economy set to overtake Germany before 2030.
We have more foreign ability to trade with others more than any other European country put together. We can trade freely with the commonwealth again.
the notion that tariffs would be implemented on us works both ways and we buy more from them than we sell them. We have one of the biggest markets in the world.
I want to leave this mess they call European union and form our own trade deals and be able to vote in or out our democratic leaders.
I don't want a common army, i don't want my sausages messed with.
After we are out we will still trade with Europe vastly on better terms we have control over, we will still travel freely around European borders with a passport in your pocket! you will still be able to work overseas if you choose to that has never changed before or after the EU. I know I've done it.
Stronger in Europe is a myth. Safer in Europe is an outright lie! Germany want to have their military back in action in a controlled Europe too. NATO is the reason we are safe. There are only 3 power bases in Europe and that is France, Germany and the UK. The rest may as well lie down and be dead. I can't imagine what will happen when the Turks receive their passports to Europe. You think the migrant crisis is bad now? We are losing our identity as a nation state. We exit and the others will follow behind. Europe is a failed institution.
the belief that we are in the world's largest single market is false.
have a good look at how Europe is doing. It's been going down the toilet for years. a failed currency, mass unemployment and don't even get me started on Greece!
We are a sovereign nation able to trade where we want with who we want when we leave. we have the world's 5th largest economy set to overtake Germany before 2030.
We have more foreign ability to trade with others more than any other European country put together. We can trade freely with the commonwealth again.
the notion that tariffs would be implemented on us works both ways and we buy more from them than we sell them. We have one of the biggest markets in the world.
I want to leave this mess they call European union and form our own trade deals and be able to vote in or out our democratic leaders.
I don't want a common army, i don't want my sausages messed with.
After we are out we will still trade with Europe vastly on better terms we have control over, we will still travel freely around European borders with a passport in your pocket! you will still be able to work overseas if you choose to that has never changed before or after the EU. I know I've done it.
Stronger in Europe is a myth. Safer in Europe is an outright lie! Germany want to have their military back in action in a controlled Europe too. NATO is the reason we are safe. There are only 3 power bases in Europe and that is France, Germany and the UK. The rest may as well lie down and be dead. I can't imagine what will happen when the Turks receive their passports to Europe. You think the migrant crisis is bad now? We are losing our identity as a nation state. We exit and the others will follow behind. Europe is a failed institution.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
oakey
Well-Known Member
I can't help thinking the EU needs Britain in to stay viable. If the EU collapses I am very worried about the consequences. The Balkans descends into chaos. Russia starts taking chunks of Eastern Europe. We've been there before and had a century of wars and cold wars. I know there is NATO etc and that the security of Europe is not solely down to the EU but I can't think of anything Putin and ISIS would like more than a collapsing EU. For that reason alone, leaving aside the economic and sovereignty arguments, I will vote REMAIN.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
No it's you that's missing the point.
If we leave we'll be in a very strong negotiation position, not a weak one. They need our purchases. Badly. We buy more from them than we sell to them. You'd have to be a shockingly piss poor negotiator to not get what you want.
It's a subservient mentality to talk in terms of France and Germany letting us do something or telling us we must agree. Pathetic.We should have the confidence to be free of the stifling incompetence of these bungling fools.
We can thrive.
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
Too many people are turning this into an immigration only debate. My evidence is speaking to brits from all over the UK over here on holiday.
Most seem to think that we vote out of Europe all the 'Eastern European Scroungers' (not realising the other Europeans who contribute to the UK) will be kicked out. I can't imagine their will be an Eurostar train waiting at every station ready to deport people back to Calais, It ain't going to happen. Some kind of deal will be done to keep anyone who wants to stay who are already here.
To be fair a lot of people are still undecided and waiting for more concrete information, as their only dealings with the EU is their once/twice a year escape from the UK weather.
One thing that would change with a no vote would be your duty free allowance and mobile telephone roaming charges - Which kick in soon.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33325031
Most seem to think that we vote out of Europe all the 'Eastern European Scroungers' (not realising the other Europeans who contribute to the UK) will be kicked out. I can't imagine their will be an Eurostar train waiting at every station ready to deport people back to Calais, It ain't going to happen. Some kind of deal will be done to keep anyone who wants to stay who are already here.
To be fair a lot of people are still undecided and waiting for more concrete information, as their only dealings with the EU is their once/twice a year escape from the UK weather.
One thing that would change with a no vote would be your duty free allowance and mobile telephone roaming charges - Which kick in soon.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33325031
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Pros: fuck knows, you can't predict the future or an economy.
Cons: fuck knows, you can't predict the future or an economy.
How's that?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I seriously doubt we'll just give citizenship to everyone already here. More likely there'll be a grace period then some kind of Visa requirement, but as per my previous answer fuck knows no-one can predict it.
Also, your argument about high skill immigrants is stupid, no-one is suggesting no immigrants, just an application of the same points based system we use outside the EU.