Time for a trust statement (33 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

Still going around in circles. A few things need to happen. SISU either need to come clean about third-party litigation or drop the legals. CA then has to go public with his 17 points.

Only by losing the subterfuge can we unite as fans. The subterfuge is not letting us have a clear picture to unite behind. It's as simple as that for me. Until things come clearer you will never know what to do for the best. Being angry and shouty when you don't understand what you're being angry and shouty about gains CCFC nothing. Until then the best you can do go and watch the team, cheer them on and buy merchandise, programs etc.

SISU need to help us with a clearer picture before we can fight their battles for them. Until that happens we're just going to have the continue merry-go-round of he said she said. If SISU can't come clean on a few things then it's more than time for them to go. They aren't helping the club.

Naive I'm afraid.

Because for us to know all requires all parties to come clean about everything and, as we've seen before, everything is always through a filter.

Best to just accept negotiations have stalled, and push for a realisation of something concrete rather than abstract. Blame and truth are the way to madness.

 

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[italiahorse]

Look at the plans, they're on the CCC website. We won't be able to run a Cat 2 academy from Higgs once Wasps plans are implemented.

Seen them.
Not saying your wrong but Wasps seem to think it can be accommodated with a little bit of tweaking as well as moving some pitch usage off site and using the Ricoh.
I don't really know (like you) without pursuing it.

 

[dongonzalos]

Well you are trying very hard to stop any unification against wasps - that's very obvious to all of us.

What's wrong I am suggesting putting pressure on Wasps. Just SISU as well otherwise we will get nowhere
Thought you were keen on uniting the fans.
As usual your hatred is far more important
Carry on

 

[stupot07]

Naive I'm afraid.

Because for us to know all requires all parties to come clean about everything and, as we've seen before, everything is always through a filter.

Best to just accept negotiations have stalled, and push for a realisation of something concrete rather than abstract. Blame and truth are the way to madness.

I agree. Calista is right, the way to unite fans is almost to forget the legals and the Ricoh (we have 2 years to sort that), and focus on the one thing we all agree on and that's trying saving the Cat 2 academy. Wasps plans and the swimming pool haven't been approved yet so we should be doing everything we can to stop them, and yes that means the Trust leading from the front.

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[italiahorse]

Not wanting to step on Grendel's toes, I do believe you stated the Ricoh would now be the JLR stadium. I believe you gave a timescale long passed. I think that means you were wrong.

* Edit didn't realise Sick Boy had already raised this, but you seem to have deflected the fact that you were wrong.

I'm only wrong when the new stadium sponsor is not JLR.
I have no idea why the delay I can only assume they want CCFC settled before confirmation.

 

[Moff]

I'm only wrong when the new stadium sponsor is not JLR.
I have no idea why the delay I can only assume they want CCFC settled before confirmation.

Are you serious? The stadium sponsor isnt JLR. So you are wrong.

You even gave a timescale long passed. Be a man just admit when you are wrong. Don't ever chastise Grendel for bending what he says, as he has nothing on you.

 

[olderskyblue]

He didn't agree on any of the 17 points

Really? Can you prove this?

 

[olderskyblue]

Don't ever chastise Grendel for bending what he says, as he has nothing on you.

What? Are you new here Moff?

 

[Moff]

What? Are you new here Moff?

Cheeky

 

[skybluetony176]

Naive I'm afraid.

Because for us to know all requires all parties to come clean about everything and, as we've seen before, everything is always through a filter.

Best to just accept negotiations have stalled, and push for a realisation of something concrete rather than abstract. Blame and truth are the way to madness.

Not naive at all. How are we supposed to back the 17 points when we have no idea at all what they are? We have no idea if they reasonable or achievable. How do you know it's not the old trick of asking for what is never going to be available so you can play the victim?

If SISU are using third-party litigation meaning that they can't stop the process we can put pressure on wasp's that it's not in the clubs or indeed it's owners control so don't use it as an excuse to not get back around the table.

If it isn't third-party then we should put pressure on SISU to drop it and get back around the table.

To be naive would be to get all shouty when you don't know the details behind what you're getting shouty about.

 

[chiefdave]

Not saying your wrong but Wasps seem to think it can be accommodated with a little bit of tweaking as well as moving some pitch usage off site and using the Ricoh.

So your definition of the academy staying at Higgs is it moving off site and using the Ricoh? The same Ricoh we weren't allowed to stage a Jimmy Hill tribute game at as the pitch wouldn't be able to cope with the extra wear.

Here's an idea, if there's other sites in the city that can be used why don't Wasps use them?

 

[Nick]

So your definition of the academy staying at Higgs is it moving off site and using the Ricoh? The same Ricoh we weren't allowed to stage a Jimmy Hill tribute game at as the pitch wouldn't be able to cope with the extra wear.

Here's an idea, if there's other sites in the city that can be used why don't Wasps use them?

Because their owners don't happen to be pushing Coventry as a city of rugby I guess...

 

[chiefdave]

How are we supposed to back the 17 points when we have no idea at all what they are?

Well we have some idea.

“I have seen Chris make reference to his 17-point plan, and I didn’t realise there were 17 points until he said that - but there probably were.

“But it wasn’t done where they came with a list of 17 demands, if we were going to do a long deal - and we were talking about a 20- or 25-year deal, he had drawn up a list of issues he thought we needed to address.

“We went through those line by line and put together a plan that would address what Coventry City need from it and that would still be commercially viable for us.

“We were making very good progress, we were probably halfway to two thirds of the way through the list.

“We still had some points not agreed, but we agreed some of the key points for example how to make food and beverage work from their point of view, how hospitality would work, where to locate a club shop in the stadium - all those sort of things were agreed.

That gives us an idea and I'm sure Wasps would have been quick to mention it to the Telegraph if anything unreasonable had been asked for.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well we have some idea.

That gives us an idea and I'm sure Wasps would have been quick to mention it to the Telegraph if anything unreasonable had been asked for.

We still have no idea what they are though do we Dave and again we go back to the subterfuge. CA apparently says that they agreed on none of them, wasps are saying they agreed some of them and were even specific on one of those points. They also said that they didn't get through all of them so wasps apparently don't know what all 17 points are.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Not naive at all. How are we supposed to back the 17 points when we have no idea at all what they are?

Getting focussed on 17 points is the way to end up unfocussed.

What do we want? An academy.

When do we want it? Now and in the future.

Getting hung up on who said what to who is the surefire way to waste our time bickering. Surely you've learned that!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Oh and as an aside, if you want 'truth' the only vague hope of an arbiter of truth is... court action.

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh and as an aside, if you want 'truth' the only vague hope of an arbiter of truth is... court action.

We've had the truth twice then already.

 

[Ian1779]

We've had the truth twice then already.

True - rather we just went to JR2 now.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

We've had the truth twice then already.

We've certainly had some truth, for sure.

 

[skybluetony176]

Getting focussed on 17 points is the way to end up unfocussed.

What do we want? An academy.

When do we want it? Now and in the future.

Getting hung up on who said what to who is the surefire way to waste our time bickering. Surely you've learned that!

We need a working relationship with Wasps. It's as simple as that. An extended stay at the Ricoh is a good starting point.

The academy if you read what people on here who have actually looked into the requirements for Cat 2 status is not actually under threat from Wasps proposal at the AEHC. From what I can gather the only thing that is under threat is the indoor pitch from the swimming pool. That's the only thing we actually need primacy of at the AEHC and from what I can tell that isn't threatened by Wasps. From what I understand from those who have looked into it there is nothing saying that it has to be all on one site. Everything else could be done from Ryton or Warwick Uni from what I can tell.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just to add. Has no body actually thought that the only thing we should be fighting for is the primacy use of the indoor pitch and the indoor pitch itself as apposed to the swimming pool.

Seems to me that the shouty against anything wasps lot on here are being duped into fighting a battle that doesn't essentially need fighting.

It's the indoor pitch we should be fighting for. It's a unique sporting facility in the region so should stand up fairly well against the swimming pool as a basis for an argument. Can't help but feel that the shouty lot on here are having the wool pulled over their eyes and they'll be so busy spitting feathers in Wasps direction that the pool will sneak through and they won't even notice.

To get the ball rolling the club could start by trying to negotiate a rolling 7year (now that we all know that's the maximum we can sign up to) commitment to the indoor pitch and do the rest of the academy stuff at a different location once the current agreement is up. That's not only something that's only achievable but something that we could easily unite behind.

 

[stupot07]

We need a working relationship with Wasps. It's as simple as that. An extended stay at the Ricoh is a good starting point.

The academy if you read what people on here who have actually looked into the requirements for Cat 2 status is not actually under threat from Wasps proposal at the AEHC. From what I can gather the only thing that is under threat is the indoor pitch from the swimming pool. That's the only thing we actually need primacy of at the AEHC and from what I can tell that isn't threatened by Wasps. From what I understand from those who have looked into it there is nothing saying that it has to be all on one site. Everything else could be done from Ryton or Warwick Uni from what I can tell.

The wasps development and the swimming pool are all interlinked, it would be niaive to think it isn't.

I wouldnt be surprised if wasps are contributing financially and the wasps build with thr kicking barn will be used in the swimming pool planning application as an excuse to knock down and replace the current indoor pitch.

Add to that CSF dont want us there, not they have replaced us with wasps to use the wider facilities. It is all interlinked.

Funny how the wasps chairman has already said that wasps will get some private dedicated use of the pool, which was confirmed by my contact in csf.

Are you really saying that us as fans as a group shouldnt be challenging wasps on the academy in case we upset them?

You're obviously an expert in the academy requirements, you should offer the club your services.


What's the fucking point, the one issue 100% fans should be behind - saving the academy, and no one wants to stand up and say 'wasps, ccc, csf, higgs, this is fucking wrong', becusse they're too busy putting sisu above the club. I give up


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[skybluetony176]

We've certainly had some truth, for sure.

That's true. We haven't seen anything of what SISU were planning behind the scenes. Internal memo's, minutes from meetings, that sort of thing. SISU's motivation behind all their decision's will never come out. Good point NW.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That's true. We haven't seen anything of what SISU were planning behind the scenes. Internal memo's, minutes from meetings, that sort of thing. SISU's motivation behind all their decision's will never come out. Good point NW.

And this is where you fall down, by going for the petty.

I never even bothered to mention the revelation of a media assault, therefore showing that any statements through the press, or briefings to interested parties should be discounted, as it demonstrated the mediatised prism it all goes through...

 

[chiefdave]

What we need is the trust, or the local media for that matter, to speak with both Wasps and CSF and find out exactly what facilities and on what terms (i.e.: primacy, number of hours etc) are available to CCFC.
Then that can be compared against the regulations, with clarification sought from the FA if needed, and we'll know where we stand.
Looking at the plans, along with what Wasps, Higgs and CSF have said, I really struggle to see how we can still meet the requirements even before the pool gets added.

 

[skybluetony176]

What we need is the trust, or the local media for that matter, to speak with both Wasps and CSF and find out exactly what facilities and on what terms (i.e.: primacy, number of hours etc) are available to CCFC.
Then that can be compared against the regulations, with clarification sought from the FA if needed, and we'll know where we stand.
Looking at the plans, along with what Wasps, Higgs and CSF have said, I really struggle to see how we can still meet the requirements even before the pool gets added.

The only thing that we need at the AEHC that we can't get anywhere else as I understand it going from what others have posted is the indoor pitch, everything else we need is available elsewhere and apparently splitting facilities is allowed. It's the primacy that's crucial not location.

The indoor pitch is unique enough that it has a chance in a fight against the swimming pool. Especially if a paying customer is willing to commit to it, especially if that paying customer is already a Tennant.

The club should concentrate on that and so should we. The club can make a rolling seven year proposal for primacy of the indoor pitch and we then have something tangible to fight for. The trust could be at the center of that. Let's concentrate on the battles we have a chance of winning that will maintain our academy status. Fighting the Wasps development for the sake of it is futile.

 

[italiahorse]

What we need is the trust, or the local media for that matter, to speak with both Wasps and CSF and find out exactly what facilities and on what terms (i.e.: primacy, number of hours etc) are available to CCFC.
Then that can be compared against the regulations, with clarification sought from the FA if needed, and we'll know where we stand.
Looking at the plans, along with what Wasps, Higgs and CSF have said, I really struggle to see how we can still meet the requirements even before the pool gets added.

Agree with this.
But if CCFC really want to stay what is the problem with them doing exactly this? Particularly as I believe Wasps have said they will discuss.

 

[dongonzalos]

He didn't agree on any of the 17 points.

The legal action wasn't a factor at all. Keep their PR up though.

You don't care about the legal action do you?
You just seem completely focused on getting people up in arms against Wasps. I am just helping you achieve your aim. Broaden it a bit to include SISU and in particular the legal action most fans agree should be dropped and you might get your unified campaign.
Give it a go, you never know you might get people agreeing you for once.

 

[skybluetony176]

And this is where you fall down, by going for the petty.

I never even bothered to mention the revelation of a media assault, therefore showing that any statements through the press, or briefings to interested parties should be discounted, as it demonstrated the mediatised prism it all goes through...

It's not petty it's a fact. We are only ever going to learn what went on behind the scenes about one party. We're never going to know ALL the truths regardless of how many courts it goes to because only one party is on trial, so to speak.

 

[dongonzalos]

Or he did have issue with the 17 points - but from a PR perspective it's easier to shift blame onto the other party.

How do you know? What did he say to you? I can only go by what he said and he said he don't have a big issue with it.
Anyway we are talking about raising the profile of the problems and raising the issues of what Wasps are up to.
Grendel wants a united front I merely suggesting including the actions of the owners and wasps and you get your unified response

 

[dongonzalos]

I agree. Calista is right, the way to unite fans is almost to forget the legals and the Ricoh (we have 2 years to sort that), and focus on the one thing we all agree on and that's trying saving the Cat 2 academy. Wasps plans and the swimming pool haven't been approved yet so we should be doing everything we can to stop them, and yes that means the Trust leading from the front.

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To get a unified approach you need to focus on the main protagonists.
In the case of the academy the three protagonists Wasps, SISU and that new foundation malarkey

 

[letsallsingtogether]

You don't care about the legal action do you?
You just seem completely focused on getting people up in arms against Wasps. I am just helping you achieve your aim. Broaden it a bit to include SISU and in particular the legal action most fans agree should be dropped and you might get your unified campaign.
Give it a go, you never know you might get people agreeing you for once.

Well he does have his 2 disciples St Nick and St Torch

 

[oldfiver]

It's not petty it's a fact. We are only ever going to learn what went on behind the scenes about one party. We're never going to know ALL the truths regardless of how many courts it goes to because only one party is on trial, so to speak.

CCC can call for disclosures in JR2 just as SISU can!

 

[chiefdave]

The only thing that we need at the AEHC that we can't get anywhere else as I understand it going from what others have posted is the indoor pitch, everything else we need is available elsewhere and apparently splitting facilities is allowed. It's the primacy that's crucial not location.

The indoor pitch is unique enough that it has a chance in a fight against the swimming pool. Especially if a paying customer is willing to commit to it, especially if that paying customer is already a Tennant.

I didn't think there was room for additional pitches at Higgs but having a dig around I found a planning application from before the centre was there. It was actually made by the football club to have all their training facilities (i.e.: getting rid of Ryton) located there and included 9 outdoor pitches as well as the indoor pitch, plus accommodation! The CCC planning portal doesn't seem to be working properly at the moment so I can't view the original Higgs plans to see how the pitch locations match up and what would need to be done to add more pitches there. Did notice that on the CCFC plans it involved work to avoid flooding, that might only have been needed if they were fitting as many pitches as possible on there.

Agree with this.
But if CCFC really want to stay what is the problem with them doing exactly this? Particularly as I believe Wasps have said they will discuss.

Problem is if Anderson comes out and says we need abc nobody will believe him and then we'll have an article in the paper the next day from Higgs, CSF or Wasps saying what we actually need is xyz.
Get someone not directly involved to establish exactly what we need then question all sides on it and put a plan of action forward.
For example if it is possible to fit more pitches in then the club should offer to assist with that (along with Wasps) and in return pressure should be put on CCC to allow any planning application and Higgs to remove their restriction.
Same with the indoor centre. If the use of Wasps kicking barn will not meet academy requirements, which seems to be the case, then put pressure on CCC to locate any new pool elsewhere and again put pressure on Higgs to allow the club to sign a long term deal.
You would also have to get agreement from the club that if the Trust was to apply that pressure the club would commit to the centre and assisting towards any additional facilities required.

 

[skybluetony176]

CCC can call for disclosures in JR2 just as SISU can!

Curiosity has the better of me. What would SISU have to disclose in a judicial review of a transaction that didn't involve them?