Johnnythespider
Well-Known Member
They are men who have been in power not men who want to be.
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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (81 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
I'd still want Cromwell back. He'd have nothing to do with the EU! And as for Ireland being "transformed" since joining the EU, please enlighten me?
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
And hopefully the UK government is working to fill the loop holes, especially as Mike Ashley got a grilling last week.
However would a UK Government back in 1997 implemented those working conditions with out the EU. Probably not, as they would have said most (not all) pay holiday pay, Maternity pay etc.
I know a lot of companies here in Spain 'forget' the basic European laws on working rights, especially the bosses from non EU countries. I have had a run in with a Moroccan boss in the past and my wife the same with an Indian Boss - reminding them of our European rights, thinking because we are English and know nothing about Spanish law. But fortunately for us we had Spanish friends who told us these European Working rights are the same here in Spain.
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
I hope they do, but I hope for loads of stuff and it never happens. It still stands though that all of those workers rights (gifted by the EU) are worthless and easily bypassed. The Government will come down as hard on Mike Ashley as they have on Google, Facebook and Starbucks, if they are keeping people off the unemployment stats, they can do what they like. This Tory government looks at Mike Ashley's staff the same way he does, if they weren't working for below minimum wage for him, they would be working for free in Poundland......Slaves.
Johnnythespider
Well-Known Member
The point I was trying to make is this, those who have been in power have nothing to gain by offering their views on the eu, those who want power have everything to gain by trying to defeat the government of the day.
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Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
After speaking to an English friend of mine over here he agreed with me that not everything is right in the EU.
For example the EU expanded too fast in the 2000's, we let in too many weak countries at once, putting a strain on the budgets, but as a rich country we are expected to help bring these weak/poorer countries in line with the rest of Europe. Spain borrowed so much money of the EU during the 80's, 90's & 2000's to catch up with UK, France & Germany- exactly what the Eastern Europeans are doing now.
The other thing is the timing of the referendum - had this vote been before the economic crisis it would have been a huge vote for remain, but as most people are still not seeing the benefit of the growth of the economy in their pay packets most people want something to blame. As most people have no direct connection with the EU until they go on holiday, they don't see the point of it and would rather the *£350 million a week (*as quoted by the Out campaign) be spent within the UK. Fair Enough, But how much is £8.5billion - (The actual amount sent to the EU in 2015 - [£18bn expected to be sent minus £5bn rebate minus another £4.5bn given back to the UK in projects such as the rebuilding of the area around Coventry Railway Station, Ricoh & Bermuda Park Railway Station building]).
Again how much is £8.5bn in the grand scheme of the UK economy:-
Enough to buy out SISU and give a smile on every City fans face -
Ok more serious now - the UK government gave in 2015, £12.2bn in foreign aid - presumably to help famine in Ethiopia for example, but often ends up in countries like India & China who have enough spare cash to build their own space rockets at an estimated cost of $500million each.
NHS England spent £64 billion in 2003/4 & increased to £101bn by 2014/5, cleaning every hospital was broken down to £900m, £177m on laundry & £26m on gardening.
For example the EU expanded too fast in the 2000's, we let in too many weak countries at once, putting a strain on the budgets, but as a rich country we are expected to help bring these weak/poorer countries in line with the rest of Europe. Spain borrowed so much money of the EU during the 80's, 90's & 2000's to catch up with UK, France & Germany- exactly what the Eastern Europeans are doing now.
The other thing is the timing of the referendum - had this vote been before the economic crisis it would have been a huge vote for remain, but as most people are still not seeing the benefit of the growth of the economy in their pay packets most people want something to blame. As most people have no direct connection with the EU until they go on holiday, they don't see the point of it and would rather the *£350 million a week (*as quoted by the Out campaign) be spent within the UK. Fair Enough, But how much is £8.5billion - (The actual amount sent to the EU in 2015 - [£18bn expected to be sent minus £5bn rebate minus another £4.5bn given back to the UK in projects such as the rebuilding of the area around Coventry Railway Station, Ricoh & Bermuda Park Railway Station building]).
Again how much is £8.5bn in the grand scheme of the UK economy:-
Enough to buy out SISU and give a smile on every City fans face -
Ok more serious now - the UK government gave in 2015, £12.2bn in foreign aid - presumably to help famine in Ethiopia for example, but often ends up in countries like India & China who have enough spare cash to build their own space rockets at an estimated cost of $500million each.
NHS England spent £64 billion in 2003/4 & increased to £101bn by 2014/5, cleaning every hospital was broken down to £900m, £177m on laundry & £26m on gardening.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You're clearly on the wind up so not going to bother with a detailed response.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
You can see why the idea of getting more money back for the UK will appeal to people.
However I'm under no illusion where this money will end up - and it won't be in the pockets of the working people who this message is pitched at.
Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
And that's because you haven't got one, Mr Political Genius. :yawn:
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
...but...but we have IDS, Johnson, Gove and Patel to look after us-they told us they'd put 350million extra a week into the NHS and put the Great back into Great Britain.
Astute
Well-Known Member
And the positives are?
If the positives outweighed the negatives the remain side would have used them. But they have resorted to name calling and character assassination and not giving us information.
So if a few of them tried to make out that the whole of the 350m was lost to the EU when we got about half of it back meant they were all bullshitting is like when Cameron was trying to insinuate that we would go to war if we voted to leave was all of the remain bullshitting about such.
The last small amount of respect I had for him went when he went on about rows of war gravestones. Who else will he disrespect instead of telling us what good there is in staying in? Why do they disrespect the dead instead of telling us why we should stay?
The best view they have managed to come up with is naming those that say we should stay in the EU. The same people that have been wrong more than right about the finances of GB. Just about all of them wanted us in the Euro. The same with the credit crunch. They were telling us our money was safe up to a few days before it all went tits up. Now they are telling us what will happen if we leave the EU. But anyone being truthful will tell you that nobody knows. It could go tits up If we leave. It could go tits up again if we stay.
I didn't want the Euro. Countries need to be able to set the value of their currency. But with the Euro countries doing badly are tied to those doing better. So they can't devalue to make their output cheaper. Those doing better then have to keep loaning money (bailouts) to those not doing well. The economists now admit that they were wrong.
I pulled most of my money out of equities about a year before it all went wrong. I spent about a year thinking I had got it wrong. The economists kept saying how well everything was. Then it happened. They now admit that they were wrong.
I want out of the EU. And there are many reasons why. The economists say we will be in trouble if we leave. Would anyone be surprised if they got it wrong again? After all they are more interested in their own interests than ours.
Astute
Well-Known Member
And Cameron has told us what?
Oh yes he said that he has won concessions. What he really won was the right to have talks about concessions. And the other countries would have to agree. This is unlikely. And even if he did manage it they could be removed without us having a say.
He has also said that we would lose the right to sell easily to those in the EU. What he failed to mention is that we import a lot more from the EU than we sell to them. We are the Germans biggest buyer. They have the biggest say. Also as we are in the EU we are not allowed to have trade agreements with the rest of the world. The EU is a small place considering the size of the rest of the world. And most of the EU can hardly afford to buy much off us. They rely on the money they get from the EU.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It is better in this country than going to people we have never heard of before and we never voted in to decide what happens to it.
How about a little question. Why is it that several of our MEP's are in favour of leaving the EU when personally they get a lot of money by just being there?
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
I'm still undecided.....but leaning towards "vote leave"
My years of cynicism have certainly taken their toll......Currently I can't help thinking that if the financial & political elite, along with the central banks, commercial & investment banks, the IMF & the global corps. & multi-nationals want the UK to remain......then the average joe would probably be better off if we left.....
I like the "idea" of the EU......but I don't like the current corrupt, inefficient & un-democratic reality of it.....
I believe being a member has certainly enriched our lives......so far.....but I'm thinking about my kids future...I'm thinking 10 or 20 years down the line....and my crystal ball is telling me that the EU experiment is fucked & already on borrowed time.....half the nations are already pretty much bankrupt....sooner or later, all the shit that got kicked into the long grass in 2008/9 will come back to bite everybody on the arse.....I have not even ruled out another war in Europe....
.....10 days to go...
Astute
Well-Known Member
The main reason I am voting leave is for my younger children. I have seen the difference on what it was like for my eldest and what sort of future it looks like for my youngest. The elder ones had no problem buying their own places. The younger ones have more problems finding somewhere to rent than the older ones did buying somewhere. Then I hear that we should blame those for the lack of housing being built that want our vote to stay in the EU.
I would most probably be no worse off staying in the EU personally. But there are times where you do the right things for others. And it is easy as I am doing it for my kids.
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
Because the origins of the EU were set up in 1951 to help prevent another war between Germany & France, bearing in mind the 2nd World War finished 6 years previous & the 1st World War was only 32 years previous.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/17/what-is-the-eu-why-was-it-created-and-when-was-it-formed/
"Why was the EU created?
After the Second World War there was a new movement to create unity between Germany and France, which would ultimately lay the foundations for the European Union four decades later.
When was the EU formed?
The EU can trace its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), formed in 1951 and 1958 respectively by the Inner Six countries of Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands."
Astute
Well-Known Member
And it has turned into something that isn't good for most members. And it is run by people we don't know. It is no longer fit for purpose.
It would be marrying a woman because she is very fit and very good looking. Great at first. But what are you left with once her looks go and she puts weight on? Would you stay with her just because you have been together for so long?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
....haha yes of course; or perhaps you are simply ignorant?
You claim to be Irish yet wish that Cromwell was back despite him carrying out genocide in Ireland.
I will provide you with a detailed response about how the EU has benefited the Republic over the next couple of days. You do realise that Ireland gets more money from the EU than it puts in, don't you?
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
People having cows in their garden and claiming subsidies?
Astute
Well-Known Member
So it is a good point that Ireland gets more money out of the EU than it puts in. But it isn't a bad point that the UK puts in about 10 billion pounds more than it gets back each year?
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yep. Everyone I am talking to is saying remain.
Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
I merely wished Cromwell was back simply because he got rid of the monarchy. And if it's going to take yo a few days to trawl through Google and Wikipedia for the answers, that's fine by me. x x
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
All but one person I've spoken to socially and customers at work want out. I think its going to to be very very close, to the point that a fair few recounts might alter the outcome.
Otis
Well-Known Member
What, you mean keep recounting until they get the result they want?
Sumo the Micky Quinn
Well-Known Member
If my voting papers get to me in time - I shall be voting 'Remain in'. However I am shocked by a lot of British locals here who are not bothered. After all any one living in the EU outside the UK, are only entitled to be here as an EU Citizen with an EU Passport. Depending how negotiations go with individual governments we COULD be thrown out.
A lot a people say they have Spanish (Residencial) papers, saying they can live here with nothing to fear, but we have no rights to vote on the forthcoming Spanish Election as we don't hold Spanish Passports, so would have no right to stay as non-EU Citizens. Some clause's could be put in for us to stay living here such as visas, language tests - which unfortunately most people here would fail - including me, I know enough Spanish to get by, but can't have a full conversation.
A lot of Spanish are watching, some I have spoken to expect about 90% of the UK vote to vote Remain. But should we vote out some are hoping for a referendum here to vote out of the EU, as most forget about the World Economy Crisis affecting the Whole World. The local Spanish citizens here say they haven't notice any extra income in their pockets since the Euro was introduced in 2002.
A lot a people say they have Spanish (Residencial) papers, saying they can live here with nothing to fear, but we have no rights to vote on the forthcoming Spanish Election as we don't hold Spanish Passports, so would have no right to stay as non-EU Citizens. Some clause's could be put in for us to stay living here such as visas, language tests - which unfortunately most people here would fail - including me, I know enough Spanish to get by, but can't have a full conversation.
A lot of Spanish are watching, some I have spoken to expect about 90% of the UK vote to vote Remain. But should we vote out some are hoping for a referendum here to vote out of the EU, as most forget about the World Economy Crisis affecting the Whole World. The local Spanish citizens here say they haven't notice any extra income in their pockets since the Euro was introduced in 2002.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's ridiculous. It will be about quarter to three at the earliest.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Seems like the Midlands has a higher number of leave than anywhere else in the UK. Also more women want out,
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13-Jun.pdf
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13-Jun.pdf
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Why just stop at the EU? We could have more autonomy for the different regions in England and stop those coming from the north entering the south. After all, they put a strain on services and put house prices up. It would much easier to make it law so that no one should leave their place of birth.
The south could also get rid of the scrounging north and the north could be free from the meddling power of London.
Be brave, vote leave.
The south could also get rid of the scrounging north and the north could be free from the meddling power of London.
Be brave, vote leave.
Astute
Well-Known Member
With the amount of shite you have just come out with you have shown that you should be part of the remain side. You would blend in nicely.
Johnnythespider
Well-Known Member
Well that's decided it for me, The Sun have called for a leave vote. The more this goes on the more I'm convinced this is about the right wing getting control of the tory party. I will be voting to remain
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Astute
Well-Known Member
Is that why Cameron said a few months ago that we would be better off out of the EU?
Did he? I've not heard/read anything where he's said that - have you got a link?
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
You don't have to be a member of the single market and have to accept free movement of people.
Let's just clear that up.
Secondly we give 55m a day to this organization called the EU and get roughly half back and it equates to a unarguable net 34m a day.
Thirdly the EU isn't democratic, it's anti democratic and just look at Greece not just the state it's in but who was ousted from government and who replaced them? (Goldman Sachs employees) a joke.
The French and the Dutch voted against the constitution of 2005. They rebranded it as the Lisbon treaty and forced it through regardless of the results. So lets me clear it is anti democratic. Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty also I may add.
No one can name or pick out the eu presidents or can name the British commissioner. A sad fact.
They sell us a lot more than we sell them which is a fact so we would have to get a really good deal of we left. No other way it would go.
Euro zone is in crisis with Greece needing another bailout sometime this year and Italy by all accounts failing miserably. Yes Britain would have to foot the bill again.
Peace is maintained by nato and not the eu. Unless you believe in an eu army which is currently being made a reality so no more British army.
Ten point lead for leave in the weekend polls. I think leave will win now and I will be voting leave.
Vote remain and you give a free reign to these people to do what they want and other countries will join and more visa free access to turkey et al. I hear also a load more legislation to be announced if we vote to remain.
Cameron has been offered the commissioner job in 2019 if we stay. After his PM duties are done. Nice little 500k a year job for him. I Can see why he wants to stay.
Overall 9/10 I ask want to leave and the polls show it. Fingers crossed.
However would say if we do get a leave result I'm not so naive to think it will be straight forward, no doesn't mean shit to the Eu. They will try their best regardless. Just you watch.
Let's just clear that up.
Secondly we give 55m a day to this organization called the EU and get roughly half back and it equates to a unarguable net 34m a day.
Thirdly the EU isn't democratic, it's anti democratic and just look at Greece not just the state it's in but who was ousted from government and who replaced them? (Goldman Sachs employees) a joke.
The French and the Dutch voted against the constitution of 2005. They rebranded it as the Lisbon treaty and forced it through regardless of the results. So lets me clear it is anti democratic. Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty also I may add.
No one can name or pick out the eu presidents or can name the British commissioner. A sad fact.
They sell us a lot more than we sell them which is a fact so we would have to get a really good deal of we left. No other way it would go.
Euro zone is in crisis with Greece needing another bailout sometime this year and Italy by all accounts failing miserably. Yes Britain would have to foot the bill again.
Peace is maintained by nato and not the eu. Unless you believe in an eu army which is currently being made a reality so no more British army.
Ten point lead for leave in the weekend polls. I think leave will win now and I will be voting leave.
Vote remain and you give a free reign to these people to do what they want and other countries will join and more visa free access to turkey et al. I hear also a load more legislation to be announced if we vote to remain.
Cameron has been offered the commissioner job in 2019 if we stay. After his PM duties are done. Nice little 500k a year job for him. I Can see why he wants to stay.
Overall 9/10 I ask want to leave and the polls show it. Fingers crossed.
However would say if we do get a leave result I'm not so naive to think it will be straight forward, no doesn't mean shit to the Eu. They will try their best regardless. Just you watch.