The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (201 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

I rest my case

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It's not bias - it's seeing a group of individuals leading us down a path that benefits very few people.

Leaving the EU is the biggest thing this country has done in the last 50 years. For the sake of everyone it should be led up with cross party consensus and the negotiating team should be made up to represent this - not just be sycophants from a political party that have failed the significant majority of the British public for the last 7 years.

 

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[Ashdown]

It's not bias - it's seeing a group of individuals leading us down a path that benefits very few people.

Leaving the EU is the biggest thing this country has done in the last 50 years. For the sake of everyone it should be led up with cross party consensus and the negotiating team should be made up to represent this - not just be sycophants from a political party that have failed the significant majority of the British public for the last 7 years.

Successive governments seem to have failed this country from the 1970's. Especially since the career politicians made their appearance on the scene. I've lived through the good and bad in all of them..........but do agree in view of the last election that cross party consensus should be applied now.

 

[dadgad]

It's not bias - it's seeing a group of individuals leading us down a path that benefits very few people.

That's it in a nutshell. That's what austerity has been about since the banking crisis.
Starve services and then flog it off to the billionaire corporations.

If we'd had a commitment to a fairer society with proper investment in the rust belt,
alongside social justice and avoiding, not legislating for, scenarios like Grenfell and Manchester
we never would have voted for Brexit.

 

[Sick Boy]

No you're quite right no one has said it but your words seem to suggest a hate towards the U.K. Just my opinion. Maybe it's a hate towards the tories vented in another way.

The reason why people are so passionate is due to the fact they genuinely believe it is going to hate the country.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Their population is 440 million. I think we need them more than they need us. Whether or not Britain is more attractive now, this is a one off decision and may affect our development for generations. We have to consider future generations.

440m is a very comfortable minority on a global scale. The EU bloc put restrictions on trading outside of the bloc - in itself that creates disparity with other nations & becomes protectionist, discriminative & divisive...the sort of thing that has led to terrorism & wars historically

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[martcov]

440m is a very comfortable minority on a global scale. The EU bloc put restrictions on trading outside of the bloc - in itself that creates disparity with other nations & becomes protectionist, discriminative & divisive...the sort of thing that has led to terrorism & wars historically

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On the other hand.... there are no wars in Europe and won't be as long as we trade as a Group.

 

[skybluetony176]

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages - BBC News

I'm sure there's hordes of unemployed UK workers who haven't been able to get a job because of the imigrunts ready in the wings to fill the void.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

On the other hand.... there are no wars in Europe and won't be as long as we trade as a Group.

We cannot be sure that is the reason there have been no wars whatsoever. That's just an opinion of some 'experts'...like the ones that predicted landslide election victories & much more besides.
Personally I would put it down more to the fact that virtually every nation has more potent weaponry (tends to induce reticence to attack) & NATO.

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[Captain Dart]

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages - BBC News

I'm sure there's hordes of unemployed UK workers who haven't been able to get a job because of the imigrunts ready in the wings to fill the void.

The media are working on promoting the pro immigrant agenda, there was a farmer on this morning saying his (largely Bulgarian/Romanian) workers were skilled & they were paid £8.50/hr on average, on further questioning it turned out they had to pay most of that wage on the accommodation provided for them, so they made under £2/hr overall.
Would you pick fruit and veg for very low pay? No? We have a problem | Peter Fleming
Revealed: Scandal of Britain's fruit-farm workers

One thing that is not mentioned is that the % of income spent on food has steadily fallen, in the 60's a working family might have to spend 20% of income on food, now it is more like 8-9%, and I think there is little doubt we eat more, we must be we are getting fatter & more sedentary.

 

[shmmeee]

We cannot be sure that is the reason there have been no wars whatsoever. That's just an opinion of some 'experts'...like the ones that predicted landslide election victories & much more besides.
Personally I would put it down more to the fact that virtually every nation has more potent weaponry (tends to induce reticence to attack) & NATO.

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The landslide predictions were accurate mostly, the GE polling only really changed in the last couple of weeks. Even YouGov's accurate model was predicting a landslide early on.

Successive governments seem to have failed this country from the 1970's. Especially since the career politicians made their appearance on the scene. I've lived through the good and bad in all of them..........but do agree in view of the last election that cross party consensus should be applied now.

Why have they failed? We're a very rich country and on virtually every measure we have been improving. The last two years have been a shit show, but outside of that we've had pretty competent governance. You want to see shit politicians have a look at places like Italy or Venezuela.

 

[shmmeee]

True perhaps...but they are given a specific remit. If they fail to produce...it looks bad on their CV too...so they had best make hay while the sun shines. Success breeds success as they will well know

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Fuck me, talk about talking a lot and saying nothing.

Is this where we are now? Governance by motivational poster? "Success breeds success" FFS.

And you might want to check out how the likes of Cameron and Osbourne are doing int he private sector with their "bad" CVs. I don't think it's much of a deterrent.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I voted leave, however the "close the borders" argument was not on my agenda.....I voted against the banksters, the corporates & multi-nationals, the TTIP & the general fucked up EU/IMF cartel that has proved to be failed, undemocratic & corrupted.......

Now I'll probably regret posting back in this thread as I have every intention of returning to my internet avoidance, but I just thought I'd give you the following snapshot for discussion:

Dave was my local delivery driver for one of the large international courier firms. He lived in Warrington, He worked out of the South Liverpool depot & I saw him for deliveries & collections several times a week.
Daves employers re-wrote his T&C's to include Saturday working with no real or acceptable recompense. Dave wasn't happy. Dave told me he refused to sign them. I've not seen Dave since.
Dimitri is my new delivery driver. He is from Bulgaria. He lives in a HMO in Toxteth with 8 other Bulgarians & Romanians. Dimitri is a qualified Architect but Dimitri now drives a van. One of Dimitris housemates is a qualified Engineer but he also drives a van.

How is the above beneficial for Dave, Bulgaria or Romania?

 

[Nick]

I voted leave, however the "close the borders" argument was not on my agenda.....I voted against the banksters, the corporates & multi-nationals, the TTIP & the general fucked up EU/IMF cartel that has proved to be failed, undemocratic & corrupted.......

Now I'll probably regret posting back in this thread as I have every intention of returning to my internet avoidance, but I just thought I'd give you the following snapshot for discussion:

Dave was my local delivery driver for one of the large international courier firms. He lived in Warrington, He worked out of the South Liverpool depot & I saw him for deliveries & collections several times a week.
Daves employers re-wrote his T&C's to include Saturday working with no real or acceptable recompense. Mick wasn't happy. Mick told me he refused to sign them. I've not seen Mick since.
Dimitri is my new delivery driver. He is from Bulgaria. He lives in a HMO in Toxteth with 8 other Bulgarians & Romanians. Dimitri is a qualified Architect but Dimitri now drives a van. One of Dimitris housemates is a qualified Engineer but he also drives a van.

How is the above beneficial for Dave, Bulgaria or Romania?

Where did mick come in?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Where did mick come in?

Ha.....Mick is his real name.....I changed it to Dave to protect his identity

 

[skybluetony176]

The media are working on promoting the pro immigrant agenda, there was a farmer on this morning saying his (largely Bulgarian/Romanian) workers were skilled & they were paid £8.50/hr on average, on further questioning it turned out they had to pay most of that wage on the accommodation provided for them, so they made under £2/hr overall.
Would you pick fruit and veg for very low pay? No? We have a problem | Peter Fleming
Revealed: Scandal of Britain's fruit-farm workers

One thing that is not mentioned is that the % of income spent on food has steadily fallen, in the 60's a working family might have to spend 20% of income on food, now it is more like 8-9%, and I think there is little doubt we eat more, we must be we are getting fatter & more sedentary.

Not sure where that leaves the farmers though.

Are they going to have to pay higher wages to employ a British workforce? Will this additional cost be passed on to the consumer? If so what is the benefit for coming out of the EU?

We will after we leave the EU be free to trade with farming nations from outside the EU. The example constantly given that fruit and veg brought into the EU is subject to high tariffs so fruit and veg from African nations for example can't compete with EU grown fruit and veg thus protecting EU farmers. It's been sold as better consumer value because we will be able to import without the EU tariff.

But will that end up being true? Will we just end up substituting a set of EU tariffs to protect EU farmers with a set of UK tariffs to protect UK farmers? Will the UK tariffs actually be higher than the EU ones if we've also cut off access to the cheap EU workforce UK farmers currently rely upon?

Where's the nett gain going to come from on this for the consumer? Because all I'm seeing at this moment in time is the cost of UK produce going up and the cost of imported product going up because of the tariffs applied to protect the UK farmers. Unless we subside the UK farmers with hand out's which will still cost us in the tax we pay, or we simply let the UK farming industry struggle to breaking point and collapse.

 

[RegTheDonk]

I voted leave, however the "close the borders" argument was not on my agenda.....I voted against the banksters, the corporates & multi-nationals, the TTIP & the general fucked up EU/IMF cartel that has proved to be failed, undemocratic & corrupted.......

Now I'll probably regret posting back in this thread as I have every intention of returning to my internet avoidance, but I just thought I'd give you the following snapshot for discussion:

Dave was my local delivery driver for one of the large international courier firms. He lived in Warrington, He worked out of the South Liverpool depot & I saw him for deliveries & collections several times a week.
Daves employers re-wrote his T&C's to include Saturday working with no real or acceptable recompense. Dave wasn't happy. Dave told me he refused to sign them. I've not seen Dave since.
Dimitri is my new delivery driver. He is from Bulgaria. He lives in a HMO in Toxteth with 8 other Bulgarians & Romanians. Dimitri is a qualified Architect but Dimitri now drives a van. One of Dimitris housemates is a qualified Engineer but he also drives a van.

How is the above beneficial for Dave, Bulgaria or Romania?

You need to ask the "large international courier firm" if they give a fuck, to be honest.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

You need to ask the "large international courier firm" if they give a fuck, to be honest.

Exactly.....People need to look past the lovely cuddly rights & benefits to unrestricted freedom of movement to see how its all exploitation in some form of another....

But hey.....as long as the price remains low enough so the UK consumer can spend more money they haven't got on shite they don't need, its all OK right?

Ikea lorry drivers are 'living in their trucks and paid less than £3 per hour'

.....and some would have you believe there is no such thing as wage suppression......

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The landslide predictions were accurate mostly

So why do we have a hung parliament???
How come we are Brexit-ing?
How did Trump win?

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[SkyblueBazza]

Fuck me, talk about talking a lot and saying nothing.

Is this where we are now? Governance by motivational poster? "Success breeds success" FFS.

And you might want to check out how the likes of Cameron and Osbourne are doing int he private sector with their "bad" CVs. I don't think it's much of a deterrent.

We aren't talking about Cameron & Osborne though are we? The Ministers are just the mouthpieces for the civil servants that piece the desired outcomes & strategy together...& you & I will be last to know what any of that really is

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[chiefdave]

there was a farmer on this morning saying his (largely Bulgarian/Romanian) workers were skilled & they were paid £8.50/hr on average, on further questioning it turned out they had to pay most of that wage on the accommodation provided for them, so they made under £2/hr overall.

One of the clients of the company I work for is a chap who is worth hundreds of millions personally and his companies revenues are measure in billions. The majority of his workforce is Eastern Europeans on minimum wage and have accommodation costs deducted. The accommodation they are in is appalling and most of the locations are in the middle of nowhere so they're pretty much stuck on site.

A lot of them are here so they can send money back for their kids or other family members. Its a terrible quality of life and I don't think you can draw much from the fact only Eastern Europeans will take the jobs, not the British.

Dave was my local delivery driver for one of the large international courier firms. He lived in Warrington, He worked out of the South Liverpool depot & I saw him for deliveries & collections several times a week.
Daves employers re-wrote his T&C's to include Saturday working with no real or acceptable recompense. Dave wasn't happy. Dave told me he refused to sign them. I've not seen Dave since.
Dimitri is my new delivery driver. He is from Bulgaria. He lives in a HMO in Toxteth with 8 other Bulgarians & Romanians. Dimitri is a qualified Architect but Dimitri now drives a van. One of Dimitris housemates is a qualified Engineer but he also drives a van.

How is the above beneficial for Dave, Bulgaria or Romania?

This is the key isn't it. Dave would still be doing the job if his employer wasn't treating him like shit. Therefore there would be no jobs for anyone coming in from Bulgaria or Romania.

There's more people in full time work (thing that kicks in at 16 hours) on benefits than there has ever been. Why are we putting up with the taxpayer subsidising poverty wages from huge employers that are making massive profits?

Its not restricted to minimum wage jobs either. Seems to be across the board. My Dad spent most of his working life at Courtaulds, He worked 9-5 and would be home at exactly the same time every night. There was no question of putting a few extra unpaid hours every week or being phoned at home or asked to come in on weekends. That seems the norm now. Even in the 20 years I've been working its changed massively. When I started it was a strict 9-5 and a manageable workload. Now its working thought every lunch break, taking work home every night and catching up at weekends. Today I started at 7:30am and got home at 8pm, I won't get any overtime or even any thanks for that, its considered a normal working day.

Work life balance in this country is screwed. You shouldn't have to work yourself into an early grave just to struggle to get by.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Today I started at 7:30pm and got home at 8pm

Lucky bastard.

 

[chiefdave]

Lucky bastard.

Just making sure you're paying attention :angelic:

 

[martcov]

We cannot be sure that is the reason there have been no wars whatsoever. That's just an opinion of some 'experts'...like the ones that predicted landslide election victories & much more besides.
Personally I would put it down more to the fact that virtually every nation has more potent weaponry (tends to induce reticence to attack) & NATO.

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Really? If we had a fall out as in old Europe them the country/ countries would leave NATO as Germany left the League of Nations. Working together as a bloc assures peace with or without NATO. With Trump we may lose NATO anyway.

 

[martcov]

So why do we have a hung parliament???
How come we are Brexit-ing?
How did Trump win?

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1 is because people are waking up.

2 and 3 because people believed bullshit which fitted their anti foreigner agenda.

 

[martcov]

Lucky bastard.

I am self employed and am still here at midnight our time. I am of course a capitalist swine exploiting my workers who have a shift system and are sitting at home relaxing.

 

[Sick Boy]

I am self employed and am still here at midnight our time. I am of course a capitalist swine exploiting my workers who have a shift system and are sitting at home relaxing.

More like because you post on here too much.

 

[martcov]

More like because you post on here too much.

My staff spend all their time sending whatsapps. I would rather look in here....and that's saying something..;-)

 

[wingy]

My staff spend all their time sending whatsapps. I would rather look in here....and that's saying something..;-)

Yes but do you do well martcov?

 

[martcov]

Yes but do you do well martcov?

Sometimes... but there is no guarantee...

 

[wingy]

Sometimes... but there is no guarantee...

Likewise, I'm self employed as are most across the exhibition industry, but it's fake really as many work at the same outfit year round.
Well apart from the flat spots which are two to three months of the year.

 

[wingy]

The media are working on promoting the pro immigrant agenda, there was a farmer on this morning saying his (largely Bulgarian/Romanian) workers were skilled & they were paid £8.50/hr on average, on further questioning it turned out they had to pay most of that wage on the accommodation provided for them, so they made under £2/hr overall.
Would you pick fruit and veg for very low pay? No? We have a problem | Peter Fleming
Revealed: Scandal of Britain's fruit-farm workers

One thing that is not mentioned is that the % of income spent on food has steadily fallen, in the 60's a working family might have to spend 20% of income on food, now it is more like 8-9%, and I think there is little doubt we eat more, we must be we are getting fatter & more sedentary.

This is true, so is this as a result of the Common agricultural policy or exploitation?
I heard Jacob Rees-mogg espousing that once we're free from Brussels it could be even cheaper.
One thing that is certain is that the economists know how to extract all our gains back from us.
As food has become cheaper keeping the roof above your head has well, gone through the roof along with energy.
We could argue that consumables are artificially low along with wages.
I do think this is probably true and likely due to the commodification of property.

 

[oldskyblue58]

So after all that was said in the Brexit campaign net EU migration for the UK is 133k during 2016, not a huge figure. Immigration was a central pillar of the Leave campaign argument, although it was never clear which figure they were talking about - total, net, EU, Non EU etc. I would think that this net 133k figure will fall following Brexit as the UK becomes less attractive and it is harder for UK citizens to settle in the EU. So was/is EU migration the problem it was made out to be? If for example things like NHS, farming etc rely on this migration because UK citizens, for whatever reason, will not or are not available to do the work, have we created potentially large & expensive economic problems for very little gain? Both NHS & Farming have both highlighted large shortages in human resources already

You could argue that a large proportion of people from EU come here to work and therefore contribute to our economy, is the reverse true or is our emigration more to do with retirement and the social burden associated with it?

May has offered guaranteed rights for those here 5 years or more. So by the actual Brexit anyone living here since March 2014 is not at risk if the proposal or similar is accepted. UK might become less attractive for EU citizens going forward and EU immigration may well fall, but so will emigration from the UK as EU countries become less attractive or so easily available. If the premise that we "export" retirement holds does it follow that we could have created a situation where a growing elderly population puts pressure on the services but the services do not have the human resource to supply because there is no longer freedom of movement

Wasn't the bigger migration "problem" non EU related in any case? Brexit does not deal with that. Do we gain or lose by the free movement of EU labour and will that be the case after 2019?

Just thoughts really

Migration figures Migration Watch UK | Statistics-net-migration-statistics

 

[Liquid Gold]

So now it appears May was the one to block a unilateral deal on EU citizens rights.

Quick, blame Merkel.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just watching the news and the difference in language, both literally and body, between May and Tusk is massive. May sounds desperate and Tusk sounds like he's in a position where he doesn't have to agree to anything simply because he doesn't need to. It's becoming very apparent very quickly that we're in a negative bargaining position. Unless David Davies has some very comprising photos of Tusk hidden away somewhere can't see this going well.

 

[skybluetony176]

So after all that was said in the Brexit campaign net EU migration for the UK is 133k during 2016, not a huge figure. Immigration was a central pillar of the Leave campaign argument, although it was never clear which figure they were talking about - total, net, EU, Non EU etc. I would think that this net 133k figure will fall following Brexit as the UK becomes less attractive and it is harder for UK citizens to settle in the EU. So was/is EU migration the problem it was made out to be? If for example things like NHS, farming etc rely on this migration because UK citizens, for whatever reason, will not or are not available to do the work, have we created potentially large & expensive economic problems for very little gain? Both NHS & Farming have both highlighted large shortages in human resources already

You could argue that a large proportion of people from EU come here to work and therefore contribute to our economy, is the reverse true or is our emigration more to do with retirement and the social burden associated with it?

May has offered guaranteed rights for those here 5 years or more. So by the actual Brexit anyone living here since March 2014 is not at risk if the proposal or similar is accepted. UK might become less attractive for EU citizens going forward and EU immigration may well fall, but so will emigration from the UK as EU countries become less attractive or so easily available. If the premise that we "export" retirement holds does it follow that we could have created a situation where a growing elderly population puts pressure on the services but the services do not have the human resource to supply because there is no longer freedom of movement

Wasn't the bigger migration "problem" non EU related in any case? Brexit does not deal with that. Do we gain or lose by the free movement of EU labour and will that be the case after 2019?

Just thoughts really

Migration figures Migration Watch UK | Statistics-net-migration-statistics

I suspect that with a fall in EU immigration we may see a rise in non EU immigration to counteract it out of necessity to protect farming, NHS, service industries etc.

As FP pointed out to me in another thread successive governments have failed to invest in training for the NHS leaving a void in the workforce filled by immigration. Will we see an influx in immigrants from Africa for instance to fill the growing void in the farming workforce and will the same happen in the hotel and restaurant industries where a large proportion of the employees are immigrants from the EU and Commonwealth? Will we end up just substituting x amount of EU immigrants for an extra x amount of non EU immigrants?