Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Surprise surprise!
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (40 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
Surprise surprise!
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
So you were plainly wrong in saying landslide predictions were accurate usually? Coz the last 3 major votes have all come up without a landslide
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I don't remember saying that. Are you sure you got the right person?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Does it really matter? Why let something like the truth get in the way?
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
I guessed you were agreeing with Schmeee since you answered the question for him
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clint van damme
Well-Known Member
trouble in the Labour ranks now. What an all round mess this whole Brexit carry on has been so far and it's not even really started.
The amount of politicians that have flip flopped their stance on Europe hasn't helped one little bit, especially both party leaders!
The amount of politicians that have flip flopped their stance on Europe hasn't helped one little bit, especially both party leaders!
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
I see it as a bit of excuse my JC to bring some more talent down from the back benches.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
It's harder for Labour to be fair - biggest proportion of remainers but committed to honouring will of the people.
It makes you wonder if Umanna would have put his motion in place if Corbyn had offered him a Shadow Cabinet job last week....
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Yes nice to see Corbyn showing his true colours at last. Clearly voted for brexit imo.
Got to admit he impresses me more by the day. Just wish in the eu referendum he has the balls to stick up for the leave side. I guess he couldn't as leader though. I bet if he wasn't the leader he would of been for leave.
Got to admit he impresses me more by the day. Just wish in the eu referendum he has the balls to stick up for the leave side. I guess he couldn't as leader though. I bet if he wasn't the leader he would of been for leave.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Spot on, people say Corbyn was a leave man (he has voted against the eu on every vote) and voted remain and I was told May was a soft remainer who didn't mind to leave. (To get the pm role)
Brexit isn't the problem it's the shower in government and it's opposition. British policticians mostly haven't got a clue. We as a country whether you like it or not voted for brexit and what we will get will be a disaster if these clowns have their way.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Go on then, how would you do Brexit different? I agree with your sentiments with regards to those in parliament, but I believe that Brexit is a symptom of them.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
You could reasonably argue that some senior politicians may have gravitated toward the Leave side - however there were 2 factors that stopped them from doing this.
1. Being associated with Boris, Farage and Gove
2. the immigration card being pulled so early and turning it into a campaign of intolerance.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
All these smokescreen of single markets, immigration etc...money talks & people follow the money. The link below shows what many leavers wanted to leave for (though probably only a belief/suspicion at the time of the campaigns)
Ultimately, many of the more ambitious/greedy want to get a greater chance of the money grab now on offer away from the EU moving forward.
The EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world economy
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Ultimately, many of the more ambitious/greedy want to get a greater chance of the money grab now on offer away from the EU moving forward.
The EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world economy
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Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Brexit needs a brexit prime minister for a start. Some one that actually believes in the process. Unfortunately the political class has been diluted over the year in part to the EU rule and for the last 20 years you couldn't separate tories and labour on a lot of things hence general elections actually irrelevant in the most part. We know now we are leaving the EU and we have one of the most talked about most robust elections we have ever had and you actually had two main parties miles apart on all the big issues of the day such as public wages and student fees. That in my opinion is a good thing and people are starting to realize their vote now matters and are using it.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
If that's your opinion then fair enough. I don't disagree as such but at the end of the day it wasn't a competition in who you were voting with. It was what you thought was the best decision for this country so it was above party politics and you had funny aliances from farage and Kate Hoey to Cameron and Tim farron.
Immigration card was used because the remain camp had no come back and both sides knew it. Admittedly by remainers after the vote. It is a subject that matters. It might not to you but immigration was a big part of the brexit vote if not the deciding factor imo proved by a lot of old labour up north voting Brexit. They used their vote to change the course of the future.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Nonsense. Immigration is a net contributor to our economy... it's just whenever the FACTS were shown, people chose not to believe them!
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
People didn't vote to stop immigration from the EU.
They voted to be able to control it.
You can't do that while you're in the EU.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
While that may be true (look at all those Polish shops for instance) it also puts stress on (private rented) housing, health & the education systems and suppresses wages in some areas of the economy. Further many migrants end up in slum HMO's, is that a desirable trend? There are many pros and cons, but aren’t the cons felt disproportionally harder by by the people at the bottom of the pile?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
That I do disagree with.
However, take away the contribution, and then we have to find even more cash to run things, and also provide housing to people. The taxes, after all, can be used to fund such things as the building of social housing...
Here we go, here are some financial arguments.
Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Well, you can, but we chose not to.
We chose not to have transitional controls for the new countries, we chose not to enforce the "get a job or leave" requirements like places like Germany do. We chose not to even try and get a better deal on immigration before throwing our toys out the pram.
Mass immigration, whether you agree with it or not, was a political and economic choice made by successive governments. Blair and Brown so they could spend the growth proceeds on public services and not have to do awkward things like crack down on tax evasion, Cameron (and May as HS and now as PM) because they put the economy above all as well. The only difference between Blair and Cameron is Blair was honest about it and didn't bring in stupid targets that he knew he couldn't meet.
Both sides want mass immigration, because that's what keeps our economy ticking over. Instead of admitting this, they spent years blaming the EU.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Oh no...this is terrible. We will have to start actually producing more worthwhile goods & services again after years of counting money & shuffling numbers about.
That will mean as a nation, & especially the powers that be, will have to start to value a much wider section of society who are good at that sort of thing...that will mean a better distribution of wealth imo...& overall better quality of life. Sad thing is that it took 30-40yrs to get to where we are, & will likely take 20-30yrs to get to what I describe.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The health and education systems are under pressure due to intentional underfunding. The NHS has the lowest funding increases in it's history IIRC, that is being run down for privatisation, no doubt about that. Education you have no excuses for because you can see population bulges years in advance (kids don't start until 5) and plan accordingly. Instead successive governments have taken local planning of places out of the hands of local authorities in favour of free schools and academies, which don't appear to meet actual or projected need, but where certain groups of sponsors or parents want them.
To be clear, I think low skilled immigration is too high and should be reduced. I think this mostly for community cohesion reasons (too many poor people from one area in one place and they stick together), as well as the reasons you state (the noise from the Bulgarians next door is ridiculous as they have 7 people in a 2 bed house). I just think you shouldn't let politicians off the hook for the consequences of decisions they've made. And we are in danger of immigration being used as a shield for shit politicians.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
While I'm all for rebalancing the economy away from finance and London. I'm not sure removing yourself from a massive trading block is the way to start selling more goods.
It would be nice to see the efforts put into rebuilding manufacturing and the like first, before chopping off the major tax payers.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
The bigger world is outside the EU. We do less trade with the EU now than ever and we pay a serious amount for that privilege. We can open ourselves up to the world and strike free trade deals with whoever we chose including the EU.
I don't mind how the EU operates itself after us it's not our problem anymore. I am not one who wants it to fail purposefully but I just think it will naturally fall down in the end. Too many countries to please and not enough solutions.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Excellent, another one in favour of higher revenues for higher investment in industry and services.
I'm looking forward to this socialist utopia all these Brexiteers have in mind.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
It's all about getting stuck-in asap to the deals available in the bigger picture...
The EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world economy on all parameters
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Corbyn is desperate for a hard Brexit - wake up
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
I thought you were too...
Astute
Well-Known Member
Facts like it has caused a housing shortage, shortage in hospital beds and that you can't get to see a doctor or dentist easily in many areas.
Astute
Well-Known Member
But at least we could select how many and of what skills we need instead of anyone from the EU coming here if they fancy it.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Facts like migrants keep the health service and other key services going and the government has continually underfunded the health service.
2% of the country is built upon, so build more houses!
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Just because you have a tap, don't be so sure that you'll always have as much water as you need.
The Brexit vote is already putting EU citizens off coming here as they don't feel welcome and many are looking to return home in the coming years.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Yeah good idea. We should build all the hospitals, schools, houses, roads and everything else that is needed so we can operate an open door policy next week.
Oh yeah forgot it would take years. And by that time we would still be playing catchup.
Good morning SB. So what do you think of the Italians now turning away all immigrants that arrive after being rescued at sea by any nationality but their own? That is bloody disgusting. Do you think that economic immigrants should be able to go where they want but those saved at sea should be left to drown? So what percentage of Italy is built on? Their excuse is they don't have the room for them.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Italy has a fairly low immigrant population, (about 8%).
Far lower than UK, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, USA, Australia.
The UK also has lower immigrant populations than all those countries yet they're all out performing us economically.