The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (17 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

If you're relying on these issues to be fixed once outside the EU, you're going to be disappointed.

Nobody knows that...and for you to be right or wrong you have quantify it. 1yr? 10? 50?



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[Sick Boy]

Mmmmm not answering the question though. Out of 1.2 million - how many?

I'd much rather use your own tactics. What'd be your plan be to address the urgent staffing issues?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Ah......OK

If someone owes 5k but struggles day to day to put food on the table they are seriously in debt. If someone owes 10k but has lots of spare cash each month and can easily afford the repayments then they are not seriously in debt.

How would you like to twist it this time?

The person that owes £10k is in twice as much debt than the one owing £5k which ever way you look at it.

Its the ability to repay the debt that would count for most in that scenario.

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[Grendel]

I'd much rather use your own tactics. What'd be your plan be to address the urgent staffing issues?

But you said leaving the EU would create a staffing crises so you must know surely?

 

[Sick Boy]

But you said leaving the EU would create a staffing crises so you must know surely?

Eventually it will do as I don't see queues of British people wanting to work in such appalling conditions for such low pay.

As time goes by your anti-foreigner agenda becomes clearer on this thread.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Interesting that lead Brexiteer Davies has admitted that it's highly unlikely other countries will follow the UK out.

I still don't understand why so many Leave voters and a minority on here are so desperate for the EU to collapse.

Because it would make it easier to trade with the markets where there is more money to be made from a mutually beneficial deal.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Rainbows and unicorns comes to mind here.

You clearly have a vivid imagination...that just proves it

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[Astute]

What's that got to do with the EU?

The rule was brought in by the EU. But typically they can do no wrong with some people.

 

[Grendel]

Eventually it will do as I don't see queues of British people wanting to work in such appalling conditions for such low pay.

As time goes by your anti-foreigner agenda becomes clearer on this thread.

How on earth do you decide I am anti foreigner? Based on what exactly?

What I am anti is policies determined by a federal state which imposes a favourable immigration policy towards its members. The inevitable consequence of that is skilled and superior workforce from outside the EU zone end up not gaining access.

Ultimately a country should decide its immigration policy. It doesn't effect me if it's an open door policy for everyone. It does for some though and it's arrogant to suggest it doesn't. It's pretty obvious that the lower paid sector is impacted by an unregulated policy. In countries Where workers have far lower basic pay it is basic economics that the employment base will recruit such workers and / or drive down the wages they pay.

I think the only anti foreign person is actually you. Foreign being defined as outside the EU zone

 

[skybluetony176]

Mmmmm not answering the question though. Out of 1.2 million - how many?

It's a pretty irrelevant question regardless of what the answer is as frontline NHS is severely underfunded and understaffed. The NHS needs a large number of immigrants to survive wether they be from the EU or elsewhere. Either that or we start doing some very real investment at cost to the taxpayer in training and recruiting British nurses, doctors etc. to make up the shortfall. All we're going to do is replace EU immigrant numbers with non EU immigrant numbers. And in all sectors not just the NHS. It's a con, net migration figures probably won't change a lot after brexit. The only thing that will change is the demographics.

 

[Sick Boy]

How on earth do you decide I am anti foreigner? Based on what exactly?

What I am anti is policies determined by a federal state which imposes a favourable immigration policy towards its members. The inevitable consequence of that is skilled and superior workforce from outside the EU zone end up not gaining access.

Ultimately a country should decide its immigration policy. It doesn't effect me if it's an open door policy for everyone. It does for some though and it's arrogant to suggest it doesn't. It's pretty obvious that the lower paid sector is impacted by an unregulated policy. In countries Where workers have far lower basic pay it is basic economics that the employment base will recruit such workers and / or drive down the wages they pay.

I think the only anti foreign person is actually you. Foreign being defined as outside the EU zone

Nice try, but coming from a family where myself and my sibling are the only English born, the rest are Irish and non-EU born.

Strange how it isn't an issue for other successful economies in the EU, isn't it?

Personally I've had enough of the bigoted scapegoating of people like myself and my family who have contributed to our country.

 

[Grendel]

Nice try, but coming from a family where myself and my sibling are the only English born, the rest are Irish and non-EU born.

Strange how it isn't an issue for other successful economies in the EU, isn't it?

Personally I've had enough of the bigoted scapegoating of people like myself and my family who have contributed to our country.

Once again you fail to address a single point in my post.

Do you believe in unrestricted and uncontrolled immigration?

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Mmmmm not answering the question though. Out of 1.2 million - how many?

I'm genuinely surprised at that statistic. Just 4.5% of NHS workers are from the EU.

 

[Astute]

The person that owes £10k is in twice as much debt than the one owing £5k which ever way you look at it.

Its the ability to repay the debt that would count for most in that scenario.

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Exactly. Turkey are supposedly better off than us because they owe half of what we do. But their economy isn't nowhere near as good as ours

 

[Astute]

It's a pretty irrelevant question regardless of what the answer is as frontline NHS is severely underfunded and understaffed. The NHS needs a large number of immigrants to survive wether they be from the EU or elsewhere. Either that or we start doing some very real investment at cost to the taxpayer in training and recruiting British nurses, doctors etc. to make up the shortfall. All we're going to do is replace EU immigrant numbers with non EU immigrant numbers. And in all sectors not just the NHS. It's a con, net migration figures probably won't change a lot after brexit. The only thing that will change is the demographics.

Yet you are happy that we can't choose what skills we allow in. Uou say we should allow anyone in who wants to come in. And that puts a massive burden on the NHS.

 

[Astute]

Nice try, but coming from a family where myself and my sibling are the only English born, the rest are Irish and non-EU born.

Strange how it isn't an issue for other successful economies in the EU, isn't it?

Personally I've had enough of the bigoted scapegoating of people like myself and my family who have contributed to our country.

So how many successful economies are there in the EU? If it is as good as you say why is there only a few net contributors and most take out more than they put in?

 

[Astute]

I'm genuinely surprised at that statistic. Just 4.5% of NHS workers are from the EU.

No no no. It is 99% and we will all die if they leave.

 

[Astute]

Personally I've had enough of the bigoted scapegoating of people like myself and my family who have contributed to our country.

And I've about had enough of people making up bullshit about the EU. It is as bad as the campaigns for both sides.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

No no no. It is 99% and we will all die if they leave.

Yes that's certainly the impression remainers like to give.

 

[chiefdave]

As with most things its not a straightforward answer that fits nicely into a binary situation. The NHS is reliant on non UK workers, especially nurses.

The situation currently is that UK nurses are leaving in record numbers, mainly to work overseas, due to the poor pay and conditions.

The number of newly qualified UK nurses is also falling as bursaries have been removed and fees are now being charged.

You then have EU nurses leaving in record numbers following the referendum.

Finally the proposed changes to the minimum salary an non-UK worker will need to earn would mean overseas nurses don't enough to be granted work permits.

That means we're now paying record amounts to agencies which causes nursing costs to be higher for less staff.

So where are all the required staff going to come from? They won't be from the UK as nursing has gone from one of the most over subscribed courses to struggling to fill places. They won't come from the EU or overseas as we're taking control of our borders and not letting people in to do low paid jobs.

 

[Grendel]

As with most things its not a straightforward answer that fits nicely into a binary situation. The NHS is reliant on non UK workers, especially nurses.

The situation currently is that UK nurses are leaving in record numbers, mainly to work overseas, due to the poor pay and conditions.

The number of newly qualified UK nurses is also falling as bursaries have been removed and fees are now being charged.

You then have EU nurses leaving in record numbers following the referendum.

Finally the proposed changes to the minimum salary an non-UK worker will need to earn would mean overseas nurses don't enough to be granted work permits.

That means we're now paying record amounts to agencies which causes nursing costs to be higher for less staff.

So where are all the required staff going to come from? They won't be from the UK as nursing has gone from one of the most over subscribed courses to struggling to fill places. They won't come from the EU or overseas as we're taking control of our borders and not letting people in to do low paid jobs.

How many EU nurses have left since the referendum?

 

[martcov]

Why bother? When you start actually looking at statistics many arguments can be diffused. Earlier in this long long thread we were told the NHS would close down without EU workers. So care to estimate out of 1.2 million workers have many are from the EU?

62500. Channel 4 said in March that according to a poll 2/5 of EU NHS workers will be leaving - the figure was 25000.

 

[Grendel]

62500. Channel 4 said in March that according to a poll 2/5 of EU NHS workers will be leaving - the figure was 25000.

Out of 1.2 million. What's the normal turnover of an average business. How many have actually left rather than look at a poll? After all you like real statistics

 

[martcov]

How on earth do you decide I am anti foreigner? Based on what exactly?

What I am anti is policies determined by a federal state which imposes a favourable immigration policy towards its members. The inevitable consequence of that is skilled and superior workforce from outside the EU zone end up not gaining access.

Ultimately a country should decide its immigration policy. It doesn't effect me if it's an open door policy for everyone. It does for some though and it's arrogant to suggest it doesn't. It's pretty obvious that the lower paid sector is impacted by an unregulated policy. In countries Where workers have far lower basic pay it is basic economics that the employment base will recruit such workers and / or drive down the wages they pay.

I think the only anti foreign person is actually you. Foreign being defined as outside the EU zone

Since when don't skilled and superior people get automatically refused entry? Germany is one of the most popular destinations for skilled and intelligent non Europeans. Partly because of low or no tuition fees and being allowed 18 months to stay and find a job after the degree. Germany has relaxed it's visa restrictions over the last few years and is benefitting from it. What is the UK doing to encourage non EU citizens and students? Don't blame the EU for British policy.

 

[martcov]

Out of 1.2 million. What's the normal turnover of an average business. How many have actually left rather than look at a poll? After all you like real statistics

This is an Internet forum. I don't work for the NHS and am sitting in a hotel bar. You asked a question and I found an answer. The answer to your question is 62500 based on what Channel 4 claimed.

 

[martcov]

Out of 1.2 million. What's the normal turnover of an average business. How many have actually left rather than look at a poll? After all you like real statistics

The problem with the NHS is that it is not a normal business and has difficulty coping as it is. With a possible 25000 leaving - in addition to normal turnover - the situation will get worse. A normal business would maybe lose sales or production because of staff shortages, but the NHS may lose people's lives or the waiting lists for operations may increase. I wouldn't be so glib about staff shortages caused by Brexit.

 

[martcov]

Yes that's certainly the impression remainers like to give.

Really? Or are you and Astute just making up stories again?

 

[martcov]

I'm genuinely surprised at that statistic. Just 4.5% of NHS workers are from the EU.

Me too

 

[Astute]

62500. Channel 4 said in March that according to a poll 2/5 of EU NHS workers will be leaving - the figure was 25000.

Will be leaving or are considering leaving?

Where I work people always talk about leaving. But other than retiring our staff turnover runs between 1 and 2%.

 

[Astute]

Really? Or are you and Astute just making up stories again?

So what have I made up? I keep putting links up. Yet those who disagree with me rarely do. If you listened to some you would believe that quite a high percentage of NHS staff come from the EU. And after the leave vote the UK would crash and burn. That didn't happen either.

I didn't vote leave. But I am unbiased. I can see the good and bad of being in the EU. Leaving the EU will be testing. But it should all end up fine. No guarantees though.

 

[Astute]

As with most things its not a straightforward answer that fits nicely into a binary situation. The NHS is reliant on non UK workers, especially nurses.

The situation currently is that UK nurses are leaving in record numbers, mainly to work overseas, due to the poor pay and conditions.

The number of newly qualified UK nurses is also falling as bursaries have been removed and fees are now being charged.

You then have EU nurses leaving in record numbers following the referendum.

Finally the proposed changes to the minimum salary an non-UK worker will need to earn would mean overseas nurses don't enough to be granted work permits.

That means we're now paying record amounts to agencies which causes nursing costs to be higher for less staff.

So where are all the required staff going to come from? They won't be from the UK as nursing has gone from one of the most over subscribed courses to struggling to fill places. They won't come from the EU or overseas as we're taking control of our borders and not letting people in to do low paid jobs.

Who has said that nobody will be able to come and live here? Only those upset about the leave vote and twats like Farage. Anybody wirh a few working braincells knows that there has always been immigration and always will be. But we need to have a say on the matter. Choose the skills that people bring with them. But as things stand we have had millions come here but not enough with the skills to look after the rising population.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yet you are happy that we can't choose what skills we allow in. Uou say we should allow anyone in who wants to come in. And that puts a massive burden on the NHS.

Immigration into this country is like water, it naturally fills the empty vessel of available jobs and takes on whatever shape that happens to be. Very little to nothing will change once we leave the EU with regards to the skills we allow in. The skills line is a meaningless tag marketing line from the likes of Ferage. People are coming to do the available jobs end off, wether they be skilled or not. That isn't going to change, the only thing that will is where they come from. We're already seeing the UK being viewed as less attractive by EU workers since brexit, what's the alternative?

I suspect we'll see an influx of unskilled immigrants from developing countries myself. The farming industry for example will demand them. And unlike the unskilled Romanian workers who come for seasonal farming work and then go home these won't. Why would they?

I wouldn't be surprised if net immigration into the UK goes up once we leave simply because the amount that permanently settle will go up, the side effect of this will also be that the skilled to unskilled ratio will grow in favour of unskilled.

This we can choose skilled workers is another red herring by the leave camp that completely ignores the fact that we need unskilled workers as much as skilled.

 

[Astute]

Immigration into this country is like water, it naturally fills the empty vessel of available jobs and takes on whatever shape that happens to be. Very little to nothing will change once we leave the EU with regards to the skills we allow in. The skills line is a meaningless tag marketing line from the likes of Ferage. People are coming to do the available jobs end off, wether they be skilled or not. That isn't going to change, the only thing that will is where they come from. We're already seeing the UK being viewed as less attractive by EU workers since brexit, what's the alternative?

I suspect we'll see an influx of unskilled immigrants from developing countries myself. The farming industry for example will demand them. And unlike the unskilled Romanian workers who come for seasonal farming work and then go home these won't. Why would they?

I wouldn't be surprised if net immigration into the UK goes up once we leave simply because the amount that permanently settle will go up, the side effect of this will also be that the skilled to unskilled ratio will grow in favour of unskilled.

This we can choose skilled workers is another red herring by the leave camp that completely ignores the fact that we need unskilled workers as much as skilled.

How about having something to back up what you say?

 

[skybluetony176]

How about having something to back up what you say?

Immigrants especially from the EU are coming here to work, the reason they're doing that is because jobs in both skilled and "unskilled" sectors are available, immigrants especially those from the EU are net contributors to the UK economy. Which means it works. You've been tricked into thinking that somehow it's broken. It might not be perfect but it certainly isn't broken.

If people are not coming from the EU to fill these employment gaps who is? Or are you suggesting that these jobs will simply go away and we won't need an immigrant workforce to fill these holes? If these jobs do simply disappear because there isn't an immigrant workforce to fill the positions what effect will that have on the UK economy? Will it be a gain for the UK economy or a loss? If a loss are you seriously suggesting that a government will deliberately allow a shrinkage in the UK economy so they can say we're only letting in skilled workers like astute wanted or will they make it easier for immigrants to come into the country wether they be from the EU, the commonwealth of wherever?

Nothing will change regarding numbers overall, just the demographics. Only we'll probably end up with a unskilled, poorly educated, unlikely to go home immigrant workforce. But it's OK because you'll be able to say we control the borders. Biting of your nose to spite your face springs to mind.

 

[chiefdave]

Who has said that nobody will be able to come and live here?

So what happens when the minimum salary threshold of £35K kicks in given that nursing isn't an exempt profession? And what happens when we leave the EU if we haven't agreed to freedom of movement and those same rules therefore apply to EU nurses?