The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (31 Viewers)

[Kingokings204]

But the point you’re replying to is that the NHS is only badly in need because of UK government choices on funding.

Just like high immigration was a UK government choice.

They must be pissing themselves that they can do why they want in the knowledge that people will just blame the EU. What a cushy job!

I'm not saying there isn't a funding issue via the Tory government. I'm saying how many doctors and nurses do you need when you have an open door border to the eu and no clue what the population will be also.

You wouldnt understand that though by the judge of your ignorant posts.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

Once again, immigrants are net *contributors* to the economy.

There's no denying that!

 

[Astute]

There would be a national shortage of midwives regardless. My parents are also from the EU and both ended up working in the public sector.

Are they to blame for a housing shortage as well?

So your parents and your partner add up to the amount of people that have come here?

You are not going to put.me on a guilt trip.

 

[Astute]

Whn have I? Evidence suggest that overall EU citizens are net tax payers.

Evidence suggests?

Your evidence showed that we were going to have a house price collapse. Your evidence showed that unemployment was going to rocket. Your evidence showed that I love Farage. I don't think much of your evidence.

 

[Sick Boy]

Evidence suggests?

Your evidence showed that we were going to have a house price collapse. Your evidence showed that unemployment was going to rocket. Your evidence showed that I love Farage. I don't think much of your evidence.

Brexit hasn't actually happened yet, and I'm not George Osourne. I don't think I've ever said that you love Farage?

 

[Astute]

Once again, immigrants are net *contributors* to the economy.

There's no denying that!

On tax paid maybe. But what about when you take everything else into consideration?

The problem is that has never been a point of mine. It is thrown in by people who are desperate to stay in the EU. My points have always been on things like already having a seven figure amount of people who are homeless and having an already overstretched NHS getting even worse. Some try and make me feel a c**t for saying we should be able to look after those already here first.

If you was homeless you would look at it differently. But you are not and you don't seem to care. You are happy to do nothing about the situation and let the homeless amount continue to get worse.

Yes it is the fault of past governments. Both Liebour and the self centred Tories. But saying that doesn't change the situation we are in.

 

[Astute]

Brexit hasn't actually happened yet, and I'm not George Osourne. I don't think I've ever said that you love Farage?

As you know it was supposed to happen if there was a leave vote.

So you haven't thrown Farage comments at me? I detest racist twats. All I have done is be honest about my thoughts. I haven't said no to people coming here. But we need more of a say on the matter. And I care about what millions are going through. You just seem to care about things that affect you personally. You refuse to look at the other side. You have even just tried to say I blame your partner and parents for all our problems. Then you expect me to take you seriously.

 

[Sick Boy]

As you know it was supposed to happen if there was a leave vote.

So you haven't thrown Farage comments at me? I detest racist twats. All I have done is be honest about my thoughts. I haven't said no to people coming here. But we need more of a say on the matter. And I care about what millions are going through. You just seem to care about things that affect you personally. You refuse to look at the other side. You have even just tried to say I blame your partner and parents for all our problems. Then you expect me to take you seriously.

As I've previously stated on this forum I do work in my own time with local food bank and a young persons homeless charity. I even set up an initiative through my work that raised 400kg of food for a food bank last Christmas. That's hardly the actions of someone who doesn't care about others, is it?

I didn't say you blame them personally, but your comments such that they have helped contribute towards the country's woes when all 3 have helped bring and change people's lives for the better.

 

[Astute]

As I've previously stated on this forum I do work in my own time with local food bank and a young persons homeless charity. I even set up an initiative through my work that raised 400kg of food for a food bank last Christmas. That's hardly the actions of someone who doesn't care about others, is it?

I didn't say you blame them personally, but your comments such that they have helped contribute towards the country's woes when all 3 have helped bring and change people's lives for the better.

Are you saying that the amount of people that have come to live here hasn't made any difference on the homeless numbers? And there is a good chance that my stepdad would still be alive if the numbers in Boston hadn't gone up massively. They got rid of the heart unit in Boston hospital as it couldn't cope with the influx of people. He died in hospital. It was a very long journey to the next heart ward.

And before you try it again I don't blame your parents or partner. I don't blame anyone for wanting to come here and we have the freedom of movement as being part of the EU. But it can't go on forever.

 

[Sick Boy]

Are you saying that the amount of people that have come to live here hasn't made any difference on the homeless numbers? And there is a good chance that my stepdad would still be alive if the numbers in Boston hadn't gone up massively. They got rid of the heart unit in Boston hospital as it couldn't cope with the influx of people. He died in hospital. It was a very long journey to the next heart ward.

And before you try it again I don't blame your parents or partner. I don't blame anyone for wanting to come here and we have the freedom of movement as being part of the EU. But it can't go on forever.

If migrants are net contributors to the country, then try looking at the current government for answers. If these people are coming here and generating tax revenue, then it should be invested in the infastructure of the country.

 

[clint van damme]

Not all evidence shows that. If we sorted out all the wrong claimants of benefits. Remember every person that comes here we have to house and supply benefits for. You find generally the hard working EU population who come here don't claim benefits and housing as they can afford their own house and life it's the low skilled immigration from Eastern Europe mainly who claim every benefit and that's a lot of money. Not to mention they get housed somewhere, they get gp and nhs appointments, their kids will get primary school places and the roads and cities can't take the extra traffic. All the while you never know exactly how many will come to your country or not because we have an open border with the point being you never actually know how many teachers you need as you don't know how many are coming with kids. The point also being they have never paid a uk tax in their lives.

We all need and want EU and non EU immigration without it this country is fucked but we need to know who they are? Do they have insurance? Do they have money? And crucially how many? They will can plan how many teachers to hire and how many houses to build. We currently need to build a house every four minutes to cope with current levels of immigration. There is new housing everywhere by me at the moment.

Every other country outside the EU has their own immigration policy and it works. The USA and Australia being two fine examples. They are very strict and very particular and as a result immigration is not really a problem for them.

I don't blame any Eastern European for coming here to better their life but when really poor countries like Bulgaria are allowed to go to rich countries like the U.K. Under free movement of people It's no wonder we can't cope with excessive demands for every thing. And finally this leads to lack of social cohesion and communities up and down the Labour lands mainly that have been totally destroyed by immigration where by they don't talk English and don't want to intergrate in the U.K style and values Hence why labour lands mainly voted out and actually won the brexit vote. Open-door immigration might be good for big business and keep wages low for employers with people whose wage is nearer £1 an hour in Poland and Romania but for the every day man or woman in the U.K. It's not. Before 2004 open door immigration the fruit was still picked and the cabbages were still washed.

if we sorted out all wrong benefit claims there might not be a lot of difference.
I'm sure that benefit fraud costs something like 1.4 billion while un claimed and underpaid benefits is something like 1.2 billion so not a lot of difference if the benefit system worked entirely as it should.

 

[Astute]

If migrants are net contributors to the country, then try looking at the current government for answers. If these people are coming here and generating tax revenue, then it should be invested in the infastructure of the country.

Current government? Labour is also at fault. Not enough houses have been built for many years. But they were not to know about freedom of movement that would happen in later years.

 

[Astute]

if we sorted out all wrong benefit claims there might not be a lot of difference.
I'm sure that benefit fraud costs something like 1.4 billion while un claimed and underpaid benefits is something like 1.2 billion so not a lot of difference if the benefit system worked entirely as it should.

We don't claim benefits although we could. We don't need it. Benefits should only be paid for those who need them. But why should benefits like we could claim go into your stats?

We have no idea how much is stolen from the state. And governments normally well underestimate how much is lost. They have always hidden the bad news.

 

[martcov]

Not all evidence shows that. If we sorted out all the wrong claimants of benefits. Remember every person that comes here we have to house and supply benefits for. You find generally the hard working EU population who come here don't claim benefits and housing as they can afford their own house and life it's the low skilled immigration from Eastern Europe mainly who claim every benefit and that's a lot of money. Not to mention they get housed somewhere, they get gp and nhs appointments, their kids will get primary school places and the roads and cities can't take the extra traffic. All the while you never know exactly how many will come to your country or not because we have an open border with the point being you never actually know how many teachers you need as you don't know how many are coming with kids. The point also being they have never paid a uk tax in their lives.

We all need and want EU and non EU immigration without it this country is fucked but we need to know who they are? Do they have insurance? Do they have money? And crucially how many? They will can plan how many teachers to hire and how many houses to build. We currently need to build a house every four minutes to cope with current levels of immigration. There is new housing everywhere by me at the moment.

Every other country outside the EU has their own immigration policy and it works. The USA and Australia being two fine examples. They are very strict and very particular and as a result immigration is not really a problem for them.

I don't blame any Eastern European for coming here to better their life but when really poor countries like Bulgaria are allowed to go to rich countries like the U.K. Under free movement of people It's no wonder we can't cope with excessive demands for every thing. And finally this leads to lack of social cohesion and communities up and down the Labour lands mainly that have been totally destroyed by immigration where by they don't talk English and don't want to intergrate in the U.K style and values Hence why labour lands mainly voted out and actually won the brexit vote. Open-door immigration might be good for big business and keep wages low for employers with people whose wage is nearer £1 an hour in Poland and Romania but for the every day man or woman in the U.K. It's not. Before 2004 open door immigration the fruit was still picked and the cabbages were still washed.

If you believe Trump America has loads of problems with immigration. I f we have an enforced minimum wage then there is a limit to how much they can undercut. If we enforce the 3 month with no job means leave, then they cannot abuse for long periods. We have never had so much soft fruits grown as now - partly because of immigrants who are prepared to work in the fields.

 

[Sick Boy]

Current government? Labour is also at fault. Not enough houses have been built for many years. But they were not to know about freedom of movement that would happen in later years.

When's later years? There were 100s of thousands of migrants in the early 00s.

 

[clint van damme]

Current government? Labour is also at fault. Not enough houses have been built for many years. But they were not to know about freedom of movement that would happen in later years.

agree about labour but think we would have still had a housing crisis even without freedom of movement if we work on the assumption that no one came in and no one left.
Think this has just been a failure of government policy by successive governments.

 

[martcov]

We don't claim benefits although we could. We don't need it. Benefits should only be paid for those who need them. But why should benefits like we could claim go into your stats?

We have no idea how much is stolen from the state. And governments normally well underestimate how much is lost. They have always hidden the bad news.

I suspect far more goes through legal loopholes or illegal stashing in tax havens than Bulgarian or Romanian immigrants could ever dream of, let alone cost the state.

 

[Astute]

agree about labour but think we would have still had a housing crisis even without freedom of movement if we work on the assumption that no one came in and no one left.
Think this has just been a failure of government policy by successive governments.

So we have gained millions more than have left. So the problem would be much less than it is if there was still a massive lack of housing. But it wouldn't be massive would it?

Why can't you admit to any problems it has caused?

 

[Astute]

I suspect far more goes through legal loopholes or illegal stashing in tax havens than Bulgarian or Romanian immigrants could ever dream of, let alone cost the state.

I agree. But that still doesn't make it right.

 

[Sick Boy]

I suspect far more goes through legal loopholes or illegal stashing in tax havens than Bulgarian or Romanian immigrants could ever dream of, let alone cost the state.

That's the thing isn't it, the super-rich probably can't believe how easy it is to divert anger towards people trying to earn a living while they dodge paying as much tax as possible.

Also, no doubt if there was no private education or healthcare, Theresa's magic money tree would probably start sprouting pretty fast.

 

[clint van damme]

So we have gained millions more than have left. So the problem would be much less than it is if there was still a massive lack of housing. But it wouldn't be massive would it?

Why can't you admit to any problems it has caused?

The population has grown almost 20 million since the 60s. Immigration has contributed just under 4 million people net since the 90s, yes, that contributes to the problem but do you think there wouldn't be an issue if they weren't here?
A lot of immigrants also live in HMOs so they aren't using up as much housing stock as traditional British families.

Yes, immigration will cause some problems, but I believe it solves a lot more.

For example, what state do you think a lot of sectors of the service industries, (hotels, cafes, coffee shops etc) would be in now without these immigrants?

Issues such as housing won't be solved by simply kicking immigrants out.

We need to engineer a society whose values are based on something a bit more substantial than material wealth then we might have a society with adequate housing, health care, education system and provision for the increasing aged population.

 

[chiefdave]

The NHS is on its arse because of the government ideology of defund then privatise. It was running a surplus under Labour.

Its the classic Conservative move. Then they get in huge debt because they are having to pay private companies to cover the shortfall and that will all be held up as evidence a public NHS doesn't work and it needs privatisation.

 

[Grendel]

That's the thing isn't it, the super-rich probably can't believe how easy it is to divert anger towards people trying to earn a living while they dodge paying as much tax as possible.

Also, no doubt if there was no private education or healthcare, Theresa's magic money tree would probably start sprouting pretty fast.

No private education would add £8 billion burden to the tax payer

 

[clint van damme]

No private education would add £8 billion burden to the tax payer

3 billion according to the Independent schools council.
I've nothing against them but they shouldn't have charitable status as far as I'm concerned, all in it together remember.
And ofsted should be camped out in Eton if rees mogg and boris are the sort of buffoons they're churning out.

 

[Astute]

The population has grown almost 20 million since the 60s. Immigration has contributed just under 4 million people net since the 90s, yes, that contributes to the problem but do you think there wouldn't be an issue if they weren't here?
A lot of immigrants also live in HMOs so they aren't using up as much housing stock as traditional British families.

Yes, immigration will cause some problems, but I believe it solves a lot more.

For example, what state do you think a lot of sectors of the service industries, (hotels, cafes, coffee shops etc) would be in now without these immigrants?

Issues such as housing won't be solved by simply kicking immigrants out.

We need to engineer a society whose values are based on something a bit more substantial than material wealth then we might have a society with adequate housing, health care, education system and provision for the increasing aged population.

Take a look at the official.numbers and then try again. The most telling is the graph at the bottom. 4m? Yeah right.

You can see that normal growrh was steady. But added to those coming here was doubling and more of the birth rate as people coming here also had a lot of children.

Changes in UK population over the last 50 years - ONS

 

[clint van damme]

Take a look at the official.numbers and then try again. The most telling is the graph at the bottom. 4m? Yeah right.

You can see that normal growrh was steady. But added to those coming here was doubling and more of the birth rate as people coming here also had a lot of children.

Changes in UK population over the last 50 years - ONS

those figures are from migration watch, not known for it's left wing leanings and often disputed as skewing the figures to fit an anti immigration agenda but if you want to position yourself to their right then fair enough!

 

[Astute]

those figures are from migration watch, not known for it's left wing leanings and often disputed as skewing the figures to fit an anti immigration agenda but if you want to position yourself to their right then fair enough!

Can't you read? They are the official government numbers. And they won't include those illegally here.

Me right wing? You are acting like an idiot again.

 

[clint van damme]

Can't you read? They are the official government numbers. And they won't include those illegally here.

Me right wing? You are acting like an idiot again.

I took the figures from migration watch, the government may have been their source but they wouldn't reproduce them if they didn't believe them given their track record.

People here illegally is a separate issue . How is leaving the EU going to stop that?
If they are here illegally there must be mechanisms in place to remove them, it is the fault of the UK government if they are not been employed to remove illegal immigrants.
You haven't answered my question about the benefits of immigration on industries like the service industry either. What do you think would happen to those industries without immigration?

"can't you read" is that what you're reducing yourself to - pathetic.

 

[Sick Boy]

No private education would add £8 billion burden to the tax payer

As I said, if the country actually did something about the super-super-rich dodging tax, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Grendel]

As I said, if the country actually did something about the super-super-rich dodging tax, it wouldn't be an issue.

How is sending children to private school dodging tax? The funny thing is you'd rather burden the state with additional tax out of jealousy and spite.

 

[Astute]

I took the figures from migration watch, the government may have been their source but they wouldn't reproduce them if they didn't believe them given their track record.

People here illegally is a separate issue . How is leaving the EU going to stop that?
If they are here illegally there must be mechanisms in place to remove them, it is the fault of the UK government if they are not been employed to remove illegal immigrants.
You haven't answered my question about the benefits of immigration on industries like the service industry either. What do you think would happen to those industries without immigration?

"can't you read" is that what you're reducing yourself to - pathetic.

That site is an official government website.

What is pathetic is people constantly coming out with lies to make it look like they have evidence to cover their story. It is pathetic that a few of you have accused me of things that are obviously not true. It is pathetic that you blame anything you can for the millions of homeless we now have.

 

[Astute]

As I said, if the country actually did something about the super-super-rich dodging tax, it wouldn't be an issue.

Only if the money was used to build millions of homes, build hospitals, train lots of doctors, nurses and surgeons amongst other things.

But no it won't happen. So the millions of homeless keeps going up so we can let more in that many will also be homeless. Why not let them all go to Germany and Luxembourg? Shouldn't they just want a safe place where they can have a good standard of living?

 

[chiefdave]

Net immigration has increased since Eastern European countries joined but you have to question why the UK didn't enforce similar rules to other countries to restrict things as many other EU countries did.

The easiest way to stop that migration is not to have jobs going, so you need to get those who are unemployed here to take the jobs which means looking at things like the minimum wage and working out why it is you have, for example, a fruit farmer on Radio 4 saying he's only ever had one British employee and he lasted a day.

 

[Kingokings204]

Net immigration has increased since Eastern European countries joined but you have to question why the UK didn't enforce similar rules to other countries to restrict things as many other EU countries did.

The easiest way to stop that migration is not to have jobs going, so you need to get those who are unemployed here to take the jobs which means looking at things like the minimum wage and working out why it is you have, for example, a fruit farmer on Radio 4 saying he's only ever had one British employee and he lasted a day.

Well I think it's safe to assume Eastern European are working and picking the fruit for less than the minimum wage. The reason British workers won't do is not because they are all lazy it's because they don't want to do it for £20 a day. For Eastern Europeans this is double a normal day's wage back home and the farmers make more profit. Win win. It's not rocket science.

Then it can lead to this which in my opinion is disgraceful. Loads of it up and down the country. Here is one example today in the news.

Police discover 35 men crammed into three-bedroom house in dawn raid

 

[Astute]

Net immigration has increased since Eastern European countries joined but you have to question why the UK didn't enforce similar rules to other countries to restrict things as many other EU countries did.

The easiest way to stop that migration is not to have jobs going, so you need to get those who are unemployed here to take the jobs which means looking at things like the minimum wage and working out why it is you have, for example, a fruit farmer on Radio 4 saying he's only ever had one British employee and he lasted a day.

So back before the brexit vote.

Cameron said to us that talks were set on solving the problem. Jumcker came straight out and said there was no planned talks and that there wouldn't be any. If he had kept his gob shut I am sure that we would have voted remain. There was just under 2 million more that voted leave than stay. Many millions were undecided on which way to vote because we all know that both sides lied to us. And there was Juncker saying that nothing would change. And now he wants a super state with many more poor countries joining and having to be in the Euro they will be thinking that they voted the right way.