The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

[martcov]

Most Countries take lots of money out of the EU. Germany does very well out of the EU. What chance did we ever have of getting what was best for us?

We had a democratic vote on staying in or leaving the EU. It didn't go the way the Germans or the EU wanted. So you can't get over it. Yet you say we should when it costs us many billions a year and our say is as much as countries the size of one of our cities or those who take billions out that don't want change.

Germany pays lots in and, as with us, gets lots out of it. Merkel has said she wanted the UK to remain, but respects the vote. Not bad for the leader of the fourth Reich and EUSSR. Our say is much more, than say, Estonia in the European Parliament. UK 73 mandates. Estonia 6 Mandates.

 

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[Astute]

Of course the EU cares about youth. You cannot blame everything on the EU. That is lazy. Many EU countries always had employment problems, especially in the country regions. Others are still emerging from years of communism. How the hell can they compete with the West. They have made great strides, but it will take years to reduce youth unemployment, in the meantime they have the freedom to try there luck anywhere in Europe. I wish them the best and the EU should keep trying to bring people together and encourage people to speak other European languages to help finding jobs when they leave school or university.

The Euro has forced economic stability on countries that were in a constant mess. Yes, they are in a different sort of mess now, but that is because geographical and economic factors that were there before the Euro. There is little inflation and the risk and cost of fluctuating exchange rates has been removed. We all got hit in 2008. Ask the British government what happened to the money tree and they will talk about the need for austerity. No different in the Eurozone.

The Euro is still here. Let’s see how it develops. It is ludicrous to suggest that one man is pulling all the strings in a cunning plan to make countries bankrupt. This is Daily Mail and Express rolled into one.

OMG.

Countries not doing well and being tied to Germany and how it is doing will never work.

Inflation isn't always bad. Look at us. Inflation of about 3%. The pound devalues a bit. Suddenly our goods are cheaper. We sell more as the goods are cheaper. Yet those who need to devalue to kickstart their economies can't as they are tied to Germany. As you said yourself how can they compete with the west?

 

[Astute]

Germany pays lots in and, as with us, gets lots out of it. Merkel has said she wanted the UK to remain, but respects the vote. Not bad for the leader of the fourth Reich and EUSSR. Our say is much more, than say, Estonia in the European Parliament. UK 73 mandates. Estonia 6 Mandates.

Oh thanks EU for us getting half of the billions back that we put in.

I don't want a mandate. I am married to a woman and happy.

 

[Captain Dart]

but you were happy with the uncosted multi billion pound give away in the Tory manifesto?

I really hate it when one poster make ridiculous and clearly untrue claims about the attitude of another poster. I find it childish, just trying to start an argument.

 

[clint van damme]

I really hate it when one poster make ridiculous and clearly untrue claims about the attitude of another poster. I find it childish, just trying to start an argument.

You do realise what a question mark on the end of a sentence means?
It means I've asked a question.

It doesn't take a lot for me and Astute to disagree but I've never called into question or had a problem with his attitude.

 

[martcov]

OMG.

Countries not doing well and being tied to Germany and how it is doing will never work.

Inflation isn't always bad. Look at us. Inflation of about 3%. The pound devalues a bit. Suddenly our goods are cheaper. We sell more as the goods are cheaper. Yet those who need to devalue to kickstart their economies can't as they are tied to Germany. As you said yourself how can they compete with the west?

Devaluation is not all benefits and whoopee we’re saved. It means that if your debt is in another currency you need more of your currency to repay them. Your imports of consumer goods cost more, so people’s spending power on these goods is reduced. Your raw materials for manufacturing become more expensive and you have to raise prices eventually. If people want to go abroad on holiday it becomes more expensive. It actually encourages migration as people go abroad to earn hard currency. And if your problems which caused your weakness in the first place have not been dealt with, then it all starts again in a relatively short time.

At least with the Greek economy, they are doing something about it - would never have happened without the EU. Their economy was in disarray before the EU existed and, apart from devaluing the Drachma and making their people poorer, they didn’t do anything. They blagged it through with credit after joining the Euro and got caught out by the crash in 2008.

 

[Astute]

but you were happy with the uncosted multi billion pound give away in the Tory manifesto?

So what is this that I don't know about?

They are always uncosted when we can't afford it. But young voters take their first election or two to find out that they lie to us each election. Then you have those who only ever remember the lies from the parties they don't vote for and forget the lies frim the party they vote for.

And then they have the balls to call people thick that don't vote the same way as themself.

 

[Astute]

No. You know who I mean because he is your favourite pantomime villain. Mine is Farage.

Why do you have to try and downplay the part that Juncker has in the EU?

Then you make out that Farage has importance here. If you lived in the UK you would know that Farage means less here than you make out that an eighth of the population of Germany is that voted racist/fascist.

 

[clint van damme]

So what is this that I don't know about?

They are always uncosted when we can't afford it. But young voters take their first election or two to find out that they lie to us each election. Then you have those who only ever remember the lies from the parties they don't vote for and forget the lies frim the party they vote for.

And then they have the balls to call people thick that don't vote the same way as themself.

my point is that people keep pointing the finger at Labour foe various issue while giving the tories a pass for doing the same thing.
At least Labour costed their manifesto, the tories didn't even bother!
If Labour were in power and the tories in opposition I could understand it but letting the government off the hook for their misdemeanours is unbelievable to me.
The attitude to the tories from a lot of people is like the attitude of the NRA to guns, they'll look to put the blame everywhere except for where it really should be.
They committed to billions more uncosted spending last week and hardly anyone batted an eye lid, imagine if Corbyn had done that?

 

[Astute]

Germany pays lots in and, as with us, gets lots out of it. Merkel has said she wanted the UK to remain, but respects the vote. Not bad for the leader of the fourth Reich and EUSSR. Our say is much more, than say, Estonia in the European Parliament. UK 73 mandates. Estonia 6 Mandates.

I know more about Merkel than you could guess and respect her. Her family went east when others were escaping west for instance.

But whatever I think of Merkel it doesn't correct the ills of the EU.

 

[Astute]

my point is that people keep pointing the finger at Labour foe various issue while giving the tories a pass for doing the same thing.
At least Labour costed their manifesto, the tories didn't even bother!
If Labour were in power and the tories in opposition I could understand it but letting the government off the hook for their misdemeanours is unbelievable to me.
The attitude to the tories from a lot of people is like the attitude of the NRA to guns, they'll look to put the blame everywhere except for where it really should be.
They committed to billions more uncosted spending last week and hardly anyone batted an eye lid, imagine if Corbyn had done that?

So Labour are OK because their costings were many billions out?

Why can't you look at the good and bad on both sides for once. Yes point out the bad of the side you hate. But don't try and cover up and make excuses for the side you love.

 

[Astute]

You do realise what a question mark on the end of a sentence means?
It means I've asked a question.

It doesn't take a lot for me and Astute to disagree but I've never called into question or had a problem with his attitude.

But you do frequently try to say that I have said what I haven't.

I fully understand economics. I understand how the world works. I am willing to call out politicians who lie to us or don't have a clue what they are talking about. I know more than many politicians on subjects they talk about. I don't care if it is for the party I vote for or not.

Nearly all of them are bullshitters. But you only mention the lies from one side.

 

[Captain Dart]

You do realise what a question mark on the end of a sentence means?
It means I've asked a question.

It doesn't take a lot for me and Astute to disagree but I've never called into question or had a problem with his attitude.

A stupid and pointless question.

Pretty obvious the UDP thing was the only realistic option for the sake of stability in the country, Another election would have had been very detrimental.

 

[martcov]

Why do you have to try and downplay the part that Juncker has in the EU?

Then you make out that Farage has importance here. If you lived in the UK you would know that Farage means less here than you make out that an eighth of the population of Germany is that voted racist/fascist.

UKIP had exactly the same % of votes as AfD. Farage is the figurehead of UKIP. 12,5% = 12,5%. The same.

 

[martcov]

But you do frequently try to say that I have said what I haven't.

I fully understand economics. I understand how the world works. I am willing to call out politicians who lie to us or don't have a clue what they are talking about. I know more than many politicians on subjects they talk about. I don't care if it is for the party I vote for or not.

Nearly all of them are bullshitters. But you only mention the lies from one side.

What’s that got to do with your attitude? Captain Dart was sticking up for you and CvD said he had no problem with your attitude. Now you are on about bullshitting politicians. Whatever else I may think, I don’t think you need Captain Dart to stick up for you.......

 

[Grendel]

UKIP had exactly the same % of votes as AfD. Farage is the figurehead of UKIP. 12,5% = 12,5%. The same.

Comparing the two is absurd but I see why you do it as I guess it's uncomfortable knowing if you are sharing a lift with 14 people 2 of them at least want the return of the Fuhrer

 

[martcov]

Comparing the two is absurd but I see why you do it as I guess it's uncomfortable knowing if you are sharing a lift with 14 people 2 of them at least want the return of the Fuhrer

I think I have explained, and I think you also mentioned, that the CDU and SPD both lost over a million votes to AfD. Exit Polls suggest most new AfD voters voted as a protest vote - not to have a new Führer. The break up of AfD is already in motion and one of their ex leaders is on trial for perjury. ( The internal fighting is as I predicted ). A few MPs have resigned from the party and will vote according to their own views. Petry, who approves of shooting refugees at the border „if necessary“ has left the party, but kept her mandate, on the grounds that it is too right wing!!! She wants a nationwide version of the Bavarian very conservative CSU. There is a Bavarian separatist party, but the Constitutional Court recently ruled that there is no provision for states leaving the Bundesrepublik Deutschland. No Article 50 in Germany. No Catalonia.

 

[Astute]

Devaluation is not all benefits and whoopee we’re saved. It means that if your debt is in another currency you need more of your currency to repay them. Your imports of consumer goods cost more, so people’s spending power on these goods is reduced. Your raw materials for manufacturing become more expensive and you have to raise prices eventually. If people want to go abroad on holiday it becomes more expensive. It actually encourages migration as people go abroad to earn hard currency. And if your problems which caused your weakness in the first place have not been dealt with, then it all starts again in a relatively short time.

At least with the Greek economy, they are doing something about it - would never have happened without the EU. Their economy was in disarray before the EU existed and, apart from devaluing the Drachma and making their people poorer, they didn’t do anything. They blagged it through with credit after joining the Euro and got caught out by the crash in 2008.

You have a grasp of economics. Bit there is more to it than that.

Currency devaluation makes your exports cheaper. Inflation pays off your debt. If you can export enough to cover debt repayments inflation takes care of the rest.

Countries in the Euro have been hit by a double whammy. They can't devalue to make their goods cheaper. And inflation is low. Artificially low. So all that happens is they get further into debt with no way of paying it off.

So what good has happened in Greece?

You name the good and I will name the bad it has caused. Something needed to be done. But it was too hard too fast. Being in the Euro made it worse.

 

[Astute]

I think I have explained, and I think you also mentioned, that the CDU and SPD both lost over a million votes to AfD. Exit Polls suggest most new AfD voters voted as a protest vote - not to have a new Führer. The break up of AfD is already in motion and one of their ex leaders is on trial for perjury. ( The internal fighting is as I predicted ). A few MPs have resigned from the party and will vote according to their own views. Petry, who approves of shooting refugees at the border „if necessary“ has left the party, but kept her mandate, on the grounds that it is too right wing!!! She wants a nationwide version of the Bavarian very conservative CSU. There is a Bavarian separatist party, but the Constitutional Court recently ruled that there is no provision for states leaving the Bundesrepublik Deutschland. No Article 50 in Germany. No Catalonia.

So a member of the AfD is being questioned because they know he has done wrong.

The EU know that Juncker has done wrong. They are looking into what he is involved in. But he is still in charge of the EU.

 

[martcov]

You have a grasp of economics. Bit there is more to it than that.

Currency devaluation makes your exports cheaper. Inflation pays off your debt. If you can export enough to cover debt repayments inflation takes care of the rest.

Countries in the Euro have been hit by a double whammy. They can't devalue to make their goods cheaper. And inflation is low. Artificially low. So all that happens is they get further into debt with no way of paying it off.

So what good has happened in Greece?

You name the good and I will name the bad it has caused. Something needed to be done. But it was too hard too fast. Being in the Euro made it worse.

It is hard, but it is years of neglect that put it in a bad position. Joining the Euro was a political move, not a well thought out economical move- a bit like Brexit.

The positive aspect is that interest rates are low. If they were high they would have less chance of paying their loans back. Apart from anything to do directly with the EU, Erdogan annoying the Germans, other EU countries and behaving like a grotesque right wing dictator, has given Greek tourism a major boost - along with ISIS in Egypt. The tourism boom is a bonus.

The Germans have sent tax inspectors to help the Greeks with tax collection. The rich Greeks have long since shifted the big money out of Greece which doesn't help.

 

[martcov]

So a member of the AfD is being questioned because they know he has done wrong.

The EU know that Juncker has done wrong. They are looking into what he is involved in. But he is still in charge of the EU.

I think she was ripping off her own party. They grassed her up. She denied everything under oath. She claims she forgot things and that it was a genuine mistake. Has a bad recollection of events - same as a judge once said about Joy. She is not yet covered by parliamentary immunity. The new parliament gets sworn in on 24. October. Let's see how this one goes....

I said before that, if you know that Juncker has acted illegally, you should tell your local MEP and get him to find out why nothing is being done. If he has done something illegal it will come out. There must be around 700 MEPs from 28 different countries, I cannot believe that they would all agree to cover Juncker if he got caught with his fingers in the till. He is in charge of the EU Commision, not the EU.

 

[Astute]

It is hard, but it is years of neglect that put it in a bad position. Joining the Euro was a political move, not a well thought out economical move- a bit like Brexit.

The positive aspect is that interest rates are low. If they were high they would have less chance of paying their loans back. Apart from anything to do directly with the EU, Erdogan annoying the Germans, other EU countries and behaving like a grotesque right wing dictator, has given Greek tourism a major boost - along with ISIS in Egypt. The tourism boom is a bonus.

The Germans have sent tax inspectors to help the Greeks with tax collection. The rich Greeks have long since shifted the big money out of Greece which doesn't help.

Brexit could be a good move for the UK. It won't be a good move for the EU. They will struggle to make up the billions we put in each year. It is in the best interests of both sides to make a good deal. But the EU don't care about people. Just what they can get out of the few net donators.

Tell me the positives of low interest rates when their currency is tied with that of Germany. They have no chance of paying off the loans from the EU. Investment is low. The rich have lost money. Lots that were rich are now poor. They lost everything. Tax payments are well down through wages plummeting. Many are working 100 or more hours a week just to survive. What happens now the holiday season is over?

You are looking at the headlines and thinking all is getting better. But the Greeks are becoming destitute. Either most of the debt is written off or more loans will be needed. Constantly.

 

[martcov]

Brexit could be a good move for the UK. It won't be a good move for the EU. They will struggle to make up the billions we put in each year. It is in the best interests of both sides to make a good deal. But the EU don't care about people. Just what they can get out of the few net donators.

Tell me the positives of low interest rates when their currency is tied with that of Germany. They have no chance of paying off the loans from the EU. Investment is low. The rich have lost money. Lots that were rich are now poor. They lost everything. Tax payments are well down through wages plummeting. Many are working 100 or more hours a week just to survive. What happens now the holiday season is over?

You are looking at the headlines and thinking all is getting better. But the Greeks are becoming destitute. Either most of the debt is written off or more loans will be needed. Constantly.

I agree that we are looking at a transfer system for the foreseeable future. That is what Macron wants. It is the only way until at some far off time Greece can survive from it's own productivity. Low interest encourages purchases and should encourage investment, but with no domestic demand that is a problem. Greece will have to bailed out, I don't see any other way.

 

[Astute]

I think she was ripping off her own party. They grassed her up. She denied everything under oath. She claims she forgot things and that it was a genuine mistake. Has a bad recollection of events - same as a judge once said about Joy. She is not yet covered by parliamentary immunity. The new parliament gets sworn in on 24. October. Let's see how this one goes....

I said before that, if you know that Juncker has acted illegally, you should tell your local MEP and get him to find out why nothing is being done. If he has done something illegal it will come out. There must be around 700 MEPs from 28 different countries, I cannot believe that they would all agree to cover Juncker if he got caught with his fingers in the till. He is in charge of the EU Commision, not the EU.

How many know who their local MEP is?

I have never voted for one.

So I should chase up my local MEP when I don't know who it is. They get outvoted 26 to 2. You tell me to get over it. Yet the EU knows what has been going on. They have now started chasing companies for non payment of tax as they paid a small amount to Luxembourg for the money made throughout the EU. They know Juncker was involved. But he is the head of the EU. So it will get swept under the carpet.

Why did it take until us leaving the EU and soon not paying in billions each year into a black hole for them to chase the billions of tax not being paid to fellow members?

 

[Astute]

I agree that we are looking at a transfer system for the foreseeable future. That is what Macron wants. It is the only way until at some far off time Greece can survive from it's own productivity. Low interest encourages purchases and should encourage investment, but with no domestic demand that is a problem. Greece will have to bailed out, I don't see any other way.

I agree except for the low interest part. Low interest makes debt cheap. When interest rates go up the debt becomes expensive. And they already can't afford to live.

 

[clint van damme]

So Labour are OK because their costings were many billions out?

Why can't you look at the good and bad on both sides for once. Yes point out the bad of the side you hate. But don't try and cover up and make excuses for the side you love.

you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one knows if Labour would have fucked the up the country, they can only surmise. The tories are fucking it.
They're making uncosted spending commitments, our economy is struggling more than the other G7 countries, they're playing party politics in the middle of some of the most important negotiations fro decades, there's wage contraction, no one can criticise labour for any of those things because they're not responsible but when you point them out all you get back is yeah, but what about Corbyn, it's ridiculous.
It's a bit like blaming a teams poor performance on a player who's not in the squad.

 

[clint van damme]

A stupid and pointless question.

Pretty obvious the UDP thing was the only realistic option for the sake of stability in the country, Another election would have had been very detrimental.

I was on about their manifesto, prior to the DUP fiasco.

 

[martcov]

How many know who their local MEP is?

I have never voted for one.

So I should chase up my local MEP when I don't know who it is. They get outvoted 26 to 2. You tell me to get over it. Yet the EU knows what has been going on. They have now started chasing companies for non payment of tax as they paid a small amount to Luxembourg for the money made throughout the EU. They know Juncker was involved. But he is the head of the EU. So it will get swept under the carpet.

Why did it take until us leaving the EU and soon not paying in billions each year into a black hole for them to chase the billions of tax not being paid to fellow members?

I assumed that you as a champion of democracy would at least know who your MEP was. Juncker is the head of the EU Commission - not the EU.

We haven't left yet. If Ireland claims the tax from Apple as requested, who gets that? The Irish State or a third party?

 

[martcov]

Brexit could be a good move for the UK. It won't be a good move for the EU. They will struggle to make up the billions we put in each year. It is in the best interests of both sides to make a good deal. But the EU don't care about people. Just what they can get out of the few net donators.

Tell me the positives of low interest rates when their currency is tied with that of Germany. They have no chance of paying off the loans from the EU. Investment is low. The rich have lost money. Lots that were rich are now poor. They lost everything. Tax payments are well down through wages plummeting. Many are working 100 or more hours a week just to survive. What happens now the holiday season is over?

You are looking at the headlines and thinking all is getting better. But the Greeks are becoming destitute. Either most of the debt is written off or more loans will be needed. Constantly.

Quite frankly Brexit could be a good move for the EU. Things will now start rolling. The budget will be scrutinised for savings and reforms will be pushed forward. Not all bad news.

 

[Astute]

you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one knows if Labour would have fucked the up the country, they can only surmise. The tories are fucking it.
They're making uncosted spending commitments, our economy is struggling more than the other G7 countries, they're playing party politics in the middle of some of the most important negotiations fro decades, there's wage contraction, no one can criticise labour for any of those things because they're not responsible but when you point them out all you get back is yeah, but what about Corbyn, it's ridiculous.
It's a bit like blaming a teams poor performance on a player who's not in the squad.

You said the Tories were wrong for not costing things. Yet you want to ignore the costing that Labour did that was miles out. And it has been admitted.

Our economy isn't struggling. We have record employment. Our exports are up in the latest figures.

How is it that you say we need immigrants because we are doing well when we are talking about the EU, but when you are talking about the Tories we are doing badly?

 

[Astute]

I assumed that you as a champion of democracy would at least know who your MEP was. Juncker is the head of the EU Commission - not the EU.

We haven't left yet. If Ireland claims the tax from Apple as requested, who gets that? The Irish State or a third party?

The third party....Luxembourg....normally gets a bit of tax instead of the proper amount payable. All tax should be paid where it is due and not in a country where they just register for tax reasons.

 

[Astute]

Quite frankly Brexit could be a good move for the EU. Things will now start rolling. The budget will be scrutinised for savings and reforms will be pushed forward. Not all bad news.

Should have been done years ago. But what chance did we have when we had to get 27 other states to agree when most take out more than they put in?

 

[Astute]

I was on about their manifesto, prior to the DUP fiasco.

The EU is a fiasco. But you defend them.

 

[clint van damme]

You said the Tories were wrong for not costing things. Yet you want to ignore the costing that Labour did that was miles out. And it has been admitted.

Our economy isn't struggling. We have record employment. Our exports are up in the latest figures.

How is it that you say we need immigrants because we are doing well when we are talking about the EU, but when you are talking about the Tories we are doing badly?

our economy is struggling more than other G7 countries, it's still growing, which is good, but less than the other G7 countries and at less than predicted.
Our exports are up, but the extra money that companies have made they are saving for a rainy Brexit day and not re-investing, as predicted by Liam Fox, (this has been confirmed by the ONS).
DEFRA have today released a report which says farmers income will be slashed if we can't seal a post Brexit free trade deal with the EU.
Why are you more concerned by the Labour budget, which will never be implemented than the actual real negative economic indicators, (which in my opinion are starting to out weigh the positives),
Yet your accusing others of only seeing things from one side!
People should be concentrating on what is happening rather than what could have happened in Labour had got in, they didn't, it's irrelevant.

 

[clint van damme]

The EU is a fiasco. But you defend them.

wrong, lesser of two evils for me.