The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (43 Viewers)

[martcov]

The EU leaders are not the people as such though, they're often europhiles who wave such decisions through without consulting their own people

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The idea of doing away with the European Council and leaving the power with the European Parliament which is directly elected through proportional representation would take away your argument. Although Juncker didn’t mention that, it must happen as a check on his idea of doing away with the veto right. Their own people are in majority europhile. It is Britain that is leaving, not the rest. Brexit being a great boost for the „europhiles“ as you call them.

 

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[martcov]

Is your comment supposed to be ironic?

He wants to be able to make big changes without there being a unanimous vote. He wants his role to be extended to be the one steering the ship.

And how about the rest of it?

I thought that is what you wanted? If the parliament decided, not the European Council, then a country the size of a city couldn’t overrule the rest of EU Europe. The parliament is directly elected by the people. So where does Juncker come into this in the form of a dictator? Yes, he said Commission and Council together, but the parliament would have to be involved.

 

[martcov]

How about replying to this Mart?

Juncker’s uni-vision for Europe

Juncker wants to be in charge of the EU

If you read it, he says he won’t be standing in 2019. he won’t get approval for merging the Council and the Commission without a compromise or check. To do away with the veto system, he would have to give more power to the parliament as a check.

 

[martcov]

Is your comment supposed to be ironic?

He wants to be able to make big changes without there being a unanimous vote. He wants his role to be extended to be the one steering the ship.

And how about the rest of it?

He won’t be there after 2019. He wants one less president. It won’t happen without unanimous agreement. The only way to get that would be by giving more power to the parliament as a check on a merged Council and Commission.

In your article it confirms that he wants an EU finance minister- as I said. Not a Merkel style Chancellor ( German equivalent of a prime minister ) as you keep claiming.

 

[martcov]

Come on Mart. Why do you have to twist the truth when trying to defend the EU?

Juncker said Chancellor. It would be to rule over all countries in the EU including financially

Merkel’s party cool on Juncker’s single EU president idea

They haven’t said it shouldn’t be discussed though. I also pointed out that the FDP, a necessary partner if Merkel or her party wants to continue, has expressed doubts about the power of a potential EU finance minister. I would want more power to the parliament as a counter balance to a merged Commission and Council. I am sure that is what will come up in the discussion. The role of the parliament as a counter check has to at least be debated.

 

[martcov]

How about replying to this Mart?

Juncker’s uni-vision for Europe

Juncker wants to be in charge of the EU

Just read what he said. He wants a chamber where a qualified majority would be necessary in finance and foreign affairs questions instead of countries being able to use a veto. That would mean a 55% majority of countries representing 65% of the EU population. Note: avoids close votes causing problems ( e.g. 52:48 ).

The chamber would be a merged Commission and Council. The commission and council both cover the formation of EU policy and overlap each other, which Juncker says is inefficient and a waste of money.

He also says he won’t be there after 2019, so that’s two points at least which you claim to want - end of veto and end of Juncker. Be happy.

And, just to keep you happy... the countries least likely to like this would be Ireland.... and Luxemburg. At present they can use their veto to keep their low tax standards.

The parliament wasn‘t mentioned in this merger, but they are part of the EU, so I would like to hear if they would have to endorse decisions made by the merged Chamber as a check and balance.

Doesn’t seem like a dictatorship by Juncker to me. Whatever happens, it seems more democratic than the Lords, or decisions in the U.K. when they effect Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

[martcov]

Are you ignoring the link I put up earlier when Cameron used it as a reason why we should stay in the EU?

Oh, and here is the answer to your question about why is Juncker still there if he has created a tax dodging loop hole or dodged tax:

„The Parliament and you
If you want to ask the Parliament to act on a certain issue, you can petition it (either by post or online).

Petitions can cover any subject which comes under the EU's remit.

To submit a petition, you must be a citizen of an EU member state or be resident in the EU. Companies or other organisations must be based here.

Other ways of getting in touch with Parliament include contacting your local MEP or the European Parliament Information Office in your country.“

Please get in touch with the parliament. You keep asking me the same question and I keep telling you I am not in a position to know, but, as I have said before, you can contact the parliament or your local MEP.

 

[Astute]

I thought that is what you wanted? If the parliament decided, not the European Council, then a country the size of a city couldn’t overrule the rest of EU Europe. The parliament is directly elected by the people. So where does Juncker come into this in the form of a dictator? Yes, he said Commission and Council together, but the parliament would have to be involved.

So he wants one leader steering the boat....his words not mine......and not what you tried to tell us......and be able to put things through with a majority. Germany easily being the strongest would have the biggest say. He wants to take over the finances of the EU countries. And if it goes wrong he would have the back up of the EU army.

Yet you either don't see or don't want to admit what could be going on.

 

[Astute]

If you read it, he says he won’t be standing in 2019. he won’t get approval for merging the Council and the Commission without a compromise or check. To do away with the veto system, he would have to give more power to the parliament as a check.

A couple of months ago he was standing. So what has changed?

Either he knows what he did as Luxembourg PM for 19 years is catching up with him.......you know.......the massive tax fraud that none of you EU defenders will comment about on if you think he should be suspended while the EU investigation on the fraud occurs or that he would want the big one. The pilot of the ship EU enterprise.

 

[Astute]

Just read what he said. He wants a chamber where a qualified majority would be necessary in finance and foreign affairs questions instead of countries being able to use a veto. That would mean a 55% majority of countries representing 65% of the EU population. Note: avoids close votes causing problems ( e.g. 52:48 ).

The chamber would be a merged Commission and Council. The commission and council both cover the formation of EU policy and overlap each other, which Juncker says is inefficient and a waste of money.

He also says he won’t be there after 2019, so that’s two points at least which you claim to want - end of veto and end of Juncker. Be happy.

And, just to keep you happy... the countries least likely to like this would be Ireland.... and Luxemburg. At present they can use their veto to keep their low tax standards.

The parliament wasn‘t mentioned in this merger, but they are part of the EU, so I would like to hear if they would have to endorse decisions made by the merged Chamber as a check and balance.

Doesn’t seem like a dictatorship by Juncker to me. Whatever happens, it seems more democratic than the Lords, or decisions in the U.K. when they effect Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

So Germany wouldn't need too many bigger countries to join them to push through anything they want.

Everything seems to be aimed against the countries like Greece. Knackered economy. Send someone in to take over their finances. Larger countries that contribute the most vote it all in. Send in the EU army when people protest. And someone we never voted for to be steering the ship.

The longer this goes on the more I wish I had voted leave. Yet you still can't admit to the EU becoming a monster.

 

[martcov]

A couple of months ago he was standing. So what has changed?

Either he knows what he did as Luxembourg PM for 19 years is catching up with him.......you know.......the massive tax fraud that none of you EU defenders will comment about on if you think he should be suspended while the EU investigation on the fraud occurs or that he would want the big one. The pilot of the ship EU enterprise.

I told you what to do, but if he won’t be standing again then maybe your question will be answered. You should be happy, I don’t know what your problem is.

 

[Astute]

Oh, and here is the answer to your question about why is Juncker still there if he has created a tax dodging loop hole or dodged tax:

„The Parliament and you
If you want to ask the Parliament to act on a certain issue, you can petition it (either by post or online).

Petitions can cover any subject which comes under the EU's remit.

To submit a petition, you must be a citizen of an EU member state or be resident in the EU. Companies or other organisations must be based here.

Other ways of getting in touch with Parliament include contacting your local MEP or the European Parliament Information Office in your country.“

Please get in touch with the parliament. You keep asking me the same question and I keep telling you I am not in a position to know, but, as I have said before, you can contact the parliament or your local MEP.

So you are now changing my question to you. The one I have asked countless times.

Do you think that Juncker should be suspended whilst the EU look into what happened when he was running Luxembourg when the tax dodge was started? The EU are calling it fraud. Juncker ran the country for 19 years.

 

[martcov]

So Germany wouldn't need too many bigger countries to join them to push through anything they want.

Everything seems to be aimed against the countries like Greece. Knackered economy. Send someone in to take over their finances. Larger countries that contribute the most vote it all in. Send in the EU army when people protest. And someone we never voted for to be steering the ship.

The longer this goes on the more I wish I had voted leave. Yet you still can't admit to the EU becoming a monster.

The banking union and an EU Finance Minister are aimed at preventing things like the Greece collapse. The transfer payments to poorer countries would help Greece. Having at least 65% of the EU population represented in finance or foreign policy decisions means that countries like Germany cannot go it alone. Doing away with countries the size of a city using their veto to obtain financial advantage was what you wanted, now Juncker from Luxemburg suggests it, you say, but but but it’s a conspiracy to give Germany more power.

Make your mind up.

 

[martcov]

So you are now changing my question to you. The one I have asked countless times.

Do you think that Juncker should be suspended whilst the EU look into what happened when he was running Luxembourg when the tax dodge was started? The EU are calling it fraud. Juncker ran the country for 19 years.

I don’t know the full facts and I don’t think you do, so I have suggested you ask someone who may know more than both of us. Sometimes what we see as wrong is not necessarily illegal.

 

[Astute]

I told you what to do, but if he won’t be standing again then maybe your question will be answered. You should be happy, I don’t know what your problem is.

My problem?

In the UK if there was a fraud case being investigated anyone involved would be suspended at least. They would most probably be asked to resign.

This is Juncker who you staunchly defend. He is trying to push through major changes in the EU. Changes that lots of EU countries don't want or like. It doesn't take too many people like you in the EU to defend what he has done to keep him in his position.

 

[Astute]

The banking union and an EU Finance Minister are aimed at preventing things like the Greece collapse. The transfer payments to poorer countries would help Greece. Having at least 65% of the EU population represented in finance or foreign policy decisions means that countries like Germany cannot go it alone. Doing away with countries the size of a city using their veto to obtain financial advantage was what you wanted, now Juncker from Luxemburg suggests it, you say, but but but it’s a conspiracy to give Germany more power.

Make your mind up.

Stop your lies Mart.

Having one pilot steering the ship EU enterprise was not what I wanted. This one person steering the ship EU enterprise is not a finance minister.

It is the pilot of the ship EU enterprise that would send in his own people if countries didn't do as he says.

Before Juncker held back promised loans to Greece until they cut pensions to the bone and cut all benefits. They had to cut all services provided. He is after the right to take over the finances of any country that he wants.

And then he would have the back up of an EU army.

Open your eyes Mart.

We joined the common market. It was to make trade easier. Look at what it could become.

 

[martcov]

My problem?

In the UK if there was a fraud case being investigated anyone involved would be suspended at least. They would most probably be asked to resign.

This is Juncker who you staunchly defend. He is trying to push through major changes in the EU. Changes that lots of EU countries don't want or like. It doesn't take too many people like you in the EU to defend what he has done to keep him in his position.

If people don’t like them, they won’t be passed. If we had had an EU finance minister when, say, Juncker was negotiating with Amazon to come to Luxemburg, then Luxemburg couldn’t have offered Amazon a better deal. If Juncker has done something illegal, then he will be forced to go. At the moment he is accused of creating loop holes. I am no lawyer and so cannot say that what he did was illegal on what I know. You seem to know more. But there are lawyers and Juncker has been questioned. Obviously he has good lawyers, or maybe he has done nothing illegal. I am not defending him, but stating the only information I am aware of.

 

[Astute]

I don’t know the full facts and I don’t think you do, so I have suggested you ask someone who may know more than both of us. Sometimes what we see as wrong is not necessarily illegal.

The EU is calling it tax fraud. Fraud is illegal. It is an offence punishable qith a prison sentence in nearly every country in the world.

Juncker was in charge of Luxembourg for 19 years. The tax fraud started years after he took over. The EU are looking into it. They call it fraud.

So how many more facts do you need?

So do you think he should at least be suspended while the EU investigation into the tax fraud takes place or do you say he should carry on in his position of pushing through major changes in EU policies?

 

[martcov]

Stop your lies Mart.

Having one pilot steering the ship EU enterprise was not what I wanted. This one person steering the ship EU enterprise is not a finance minister.

It is the pilot of the ship EU enterprise that would send in his own people if countries didn't do as he says.

Before Juncker held back promised loans to Greece until they cut pensions to the bone and cut all benefits. They had to cut all services provided. He is after the right to take over the finances of any country that he wants.

And then he would have the back up of an EU army.

Open your eyes Mart.

We joined the common market. It was to make trade easier. Look at what it could become.

What lies?

There is not one person/ pilot. There are 5 presidents of different chambers or organs. We haven’t got an EU finance minister yet.

Greece was virtually bankrupt. Does sending tax payers money without Greece cutting outgoings seem like a fair deal?

A defence union. That could mean several things. I think it will end up as pooling resources, similar to the third pillar of the banking union. I don’t think anyone apart from yourself, has suggested using an army to invade Greece if they don’t pay up. Maybe the Express, Mail, Sun.... but I tend not to read those rags.

 

[martcov]

The EU is calling it tax fraud. Fraud is illegal. It is an offence punishable qith a prison sentence in nearly every country in the world.

Juncker was in charge of Luxembourg for 19 years. The tax fraud started years after he took over. The EU are looking into it. They call it fraud.

So how many more facts do you need?

So do you think he should at least be suspended while the EU investigation into the tax fraud takes place or do you say he should carry on in his position of pushing through major changes in EU policies?

What is the conclusion having looked into it?

 

[Astute]

If people don’t like them, they won’t be passed. If we had had an EU finance minister when, say, Juncker was negotiating with Amazon to come to Luxemburg, then Luxemburg couldn’t have offered Amazon a better deal. If Juncker has done something illegal, then he will be forced to go. At the moment he is accused of creating loop holes. I am no lawyer and so cannot say that what he did was illegal on what I know. You seem to know more. But there are lawyers and Juncker has been questioned. Obviously he has good lawyers, or maybe he has done nothing illegal. I am not defending him, but stating the only information I am aware of.

Of course he has good lawyers. And paid for by our taxes. It will go on for years. Yet you think it is OK that hebstays in his position for as long as he likes during the time it is investigated.

These tax loopholes are called fraud by the EU. Yes fraud. Or are you saying that they are wrong and it isn't fraud?

 

[Astute]

What lies?

There is not one person/ pilot. There are 5 presidents of different chambers or organs. We haven’t got an EU finance minister yet.

Greece was virtually bankrupt. Does sending tax payers money without Greece cutting outgoings seem like a fair deal?

A defence union. That could mean several things. I think it will end up as pooling resources, similar to the third pillar of the banking union. I don’t think anyone apart from yourself, has suggested using an army to invade Greece if they don’t pay up. Maybe the Express, Mail, Sun.... but I tend not to read those rags.

Rags you don't read?

It was all in his speech. Reduce the number from 5. Have one person steering the ship EU enterprise. Have the right to take over any countries finances. This is not take over their banks. Have an EU army.

Is the Guardian good enough for you?

Jean-Claude Juncker's federalist vision for the EU is far from reality

 

[Astute]

What is the conclusion having looked into it?

Fraud

 

[Astute]

Fallon resigns saying conduct 'fell short'

I know t is a totally different case. But this is how it should be done.

 

[Captain Dart]

No, I missed it. But, I was going to say, imagine if a remainer had dared to use Dunkirk as a reason to vote remain.

Search the forum and you'll see that it was you that brought up Dunkirk, why are you fixated on WWII?

It is to do with an elected EU parliament and a commission ensuring that EU countries don’t undercut each other and that all EU firms and citizens are taxed at the same or a similar rate. Takes power from the multinationals and gives it to the elected bodies by stopping the companies playing one country off against another. Why would the leavers, many of which are relatively low paid workers be against that? Why would they be against the third pillar of the banking union which is designed to protect their deposits? My guess is that these things are not explained to them by the Brexit press or scum like Farage, Gove and Johnson. They like to recommend films like Dunkirk to encourage the plucky Brit image, or dismiss experts who may be able to explain these things, or go on about classification of fruit and veg - such as bananas.

 

[martcov]

Rags you don't read?

It was all in his speech. Reduce the number from 5. Have one person steering the ship EU enterprise. Have the right to take over any countries finances. This is not take over their banks. Have an EU army.

Is the Guardian good enough for you?

Jean-Claude Juncker's federalist vision for the EU is far from reality

I have read it. You obviously not. It said clearly that Juncker‘s vision is not reality. As regards an EU army, the article says what I said. Defence union - pooling resources. It also confirmed ‚qualified majority‘ voting on important issues- which I explained to you. It didn’t mention taking over a country‘s finances. A finance minister for the EU would be concerned with cohesion of tax rates and VAT. That is not everything.

The president of the merged chamber would be setting policy, but the countries would vote on the issues. No mention in the article as to how that effects the parliament. As I also said.

The article is what I said. I see no major difference.

So, ... what lies?

 

[Sick Boy]

Fallon resigns saying conduct 'fell short'

I know t is a totally different case. But this is how it should be done.

Is there actually any evidence that Juncker has committed any crimes? Has he admitted to it? Presumably you guilty until proved innocent?

 

[Astute]

I have read it. You obviously not. It said clearly that Juncker‘s vision is not reality. As regards an EU army, the article says what I said. Defence union - pooling resources. It also confirmed ‚qualified majority‘ voting on important issues- which I explained to you. It didn’t mention taking over a country‘s finances. A finance minister for the EU would be concerned with cohesion of tax rates and VAT. That is not everything.

The president of the merged chamber would be setting policy, but the countries would vote on the issues. No mention in the article as to how that effects the parliament. As I also said.

The article is what I said. I see no major difference.

So, ... what lies?

Here you go again.

So you won't admit to being wrong about Juncker wanting someone to steer the ship EU enterprise but you use a quote from someone else saying that his views that he is trying to push through are not a reality. This shows that what he is trying to push through isn't the way that the EU should be going in.

 

[martcov]

Search the forum and you'll see that it was you that brought up Dunkirk, why are you fixated on WWII?

I am not fixated on WWII. Farage brought up the film Dunkirk and I was called scum for mentioning the fact. The EU arose out of that as cooperation between powers who had fought each other. That is the connection with this thread.

Apropos Farage and nationalism. Did you see he upset the Jewish community by claiming their US population is in effect a lobby group on London radio?

 

[Astute]

Is there actually any evidence that Juncker has committed any crimes? Has he admitted to it? Presumably you guilty until proved innocent?

Fallon has resigned because he knows he has done wrong.

The EU moves at a snail pace when they want and as quick as lightning when they want.

They call what Luxembourg have done when Juncker was in charge fraud. Yet you are happy for him to carry on in his position.

 

[martcov]

Here you go again.

So you won't admit to being wrong about Juncker wanting someone to steer the ship EU enterprise but you use a quote from someone else saying that his views that he is trying to push through are not a reality. This shows that what he is trying to push through isn't the way that the EU should be going in.

The EU should be dealing with countries undercutting each other. It should not be held up on important matters by tiny countries using their veto.

The Council duplicates the work of the Commission in some main areas. It would be sensible to merge them. This has to be cleared up.

Juncker has put these things up for policy discussion which is a good thing.

 

[Astute]

I am not fixated on WWII. Farage brought up the film Dunkirk and I was called scum for mentioning the fact. The EU arose out of that as cooperation between powers who had fought each other. That is the connection with this thread.

Apropos Farage and nationalism. Did you see he upset the Jewish community by claiming their US population is in effect a lobby group on London radio?

How about when Cameron brought it up as a reason to vote remain?

 

[Astute]

The EU should be dealing with countries undercutting each other. It should not be held up on important matters by tiny countries using their veto.

The Council duplicates the work of the Commission in some main areas. It would be sensible to merge them. This has to be cleared up.

Juncker has put these things up for policy discussion which is a good thing.

Undercutting?

Luxembourg has many more companies registered than they have people living there. It is one massive tax dodge that is costing countries throughout the EU billions. You wanted tax dodges to be stopped. But once Juncker was involved your tune changed.

 

[Sick Boy]

Fallon has resigned because he knows he has done wrong.

The EU moves at a snail pace when they want and as quick as lightning when they want.

They call what Luxembourg have done when Juncker was in charge fraud. Yet you are happy for him to carry on in his position.

Fallon has openly admitted and been accused of doing wrong yet is still serving in government.

Seeing as Britain is leaving the EU, I'd have thought you'd be more outraged and eager to sort out the fraud, tax avoidance etc in this country.

 

[Captain Dart]

I am not fixated on WWII. Farage brought up the film Dunkirk and I was called scum for mentioning the fact. The EU arose out of that as cooperation between powers who had fought each other. That is the connection with this thread.

Apropos Farage and nationalism. Did you see he upset the Jewish community by claiming their US population is in effect a lobby group on London radio?

Most people ignore Farage on the whole, I do. Why are you fixated on Farage?