The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (26 Viewers)

[Astute]

Exactly.

Yes exactly. Locked away for nearly 50 years. Or are you trying to say that it isn't true?

 

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[martcov]

We were lied to! Secret document FCO 30/1048 kept truth about EU from British for 30 years

But ah it is the Express

Have they released the assessment of Brexit papers yet? Not from 1971, but the recent ones?

 

[martcov]

Yes exactly. Locked away for nearly 50 years. Or are you trying to say that it isn't true?

We are not ruled by unelected foreign politicians. There is a leaving procedure. We kept our sovereignty, controlled our borders, fought wars together with the US and ignored other EU country’s views on these wars.

But, our bananas were classified into Class 1 and Class 2...

 

[Astute]

Have they released the assessment of Brexit papers yet? Not from 1971, but the recent ones?

Trying to change the subject as usual?

 

[Astute]

We are not ruled by unelected foreign politicians. There is a leaving procedure. We kept our sovereignty, controlled our borders, fought wars together with the US and ignored other EU country’s views on these wars.

But, our bananas were classified into Class 1 and Class 2...

And how about Junckers last revelations? EU army, one man steering the ship EU enterprise, finances to be overlooked by the EU and taken over when required.....

Control our own borders?

 

[martcov]

Trying to change the subject as usual?

The subject is the EU now. You changed it by posting some Express crap about 1971. We weren’t even in the common market at that time and people were up in arms about decimalisation. Plucky Brits fighting against this European idea of a decimal system. Then we had the Lbs and ounces struggle. Now we have Brexit... times don’t change..

 

[skybluetony176]

So how do you take McDonnell's claim that "big business now trusts Labour more than the government on the economy"
McDonnell says big business sees Labour as government in waiting
I think that statement is a lie.

Politicians are just like papers. Full of spin. Haven’t read what the article says but already you have spin on spin. So you have to look for the details. What McDonnell says will probably have some elements of truth as will the selected quotes from what he said in the paper. Neither will give you the full picture and spin on spin will always be less accurate on face value than just spin.

 

[martcov]

And how about Junckers last revelations? EU army, one man steering the ship EU enterprise, finances to be overlooked by the EU and taken over when required.....

Control our own borders?

Defence Union- not EU army. Merging 2 presidencies, but keeping the democratically elected EU Parliament. Far cry from one man running the EU. An EU chancellor with powers over certain parts of fiscal policy in the Eurozone. Totally different to what you claim. This has to be voted on anyway.

Yes we do control our borders. Try coming in without a passport.

 

[Astute]

The subject is the EU now. You changed it by posting some Express crap about 1971. We weren’t even in the common market at that time and people were up in arms about decimalisation. Plucky Brits fighting against this European idea of a decimal system. Then we had the Lbs and ounces struggle. Now we have Brexit... times don’t change..

So you don't want to talk about how we got into this situation. I am shocked yet again.

 

[Astute]

Defence Union- not EU army. Merging 2 presidencies, but keeping the democratically elected EU Parliament. Far cry from one man running the EU. An EU chancellor with powers over certain parts of fiscal policy in the Eurozone. Totally different to what you claim. This has to be voted on anyway.

Yes we do control our borders. Try coming in without a passport.

He called it an EU army.

One person steering the ship EU enterprise isn't one person in charge?

Juncker said about the powers the EU chancellor will have. You have always tried to deny it.

It isn't hard to get an EU passport. Then we have no control.

 

[clint van damme]

So how do you take McDonnell's claim that "big business now trusts Labour more than the government on the economy"
McDonnell says big business sees Labour as government in waiting
I think that statement is a lie.

big business had a huge representation at this years Labour party conference, much bigger than usual.
Now they may have just been hedging their bets in case Labour gets in rather than making a statement of trust but they were definitely there.
I said in another post, BAE were there and you can guarantee that whatever they offer Corbyn were he to become PM would see at best his pledge to ban arms sales to the Saudis watered down if not abandoned altogether.

 

[martcov]

So you don't want to talk about how we got into this situation. I am shocked yet again.

I know how we got into this situation and am appalled... Brexit is proving to be a total cock up...

 

[Kingokings204]

I know how we got into this situation and am appalled... Brexit is proving to be a total cock up...

Says you. I thought we haven’t even left yet?

Yes we aren’t helped by a weak Mrs May and split cabinet but we will be absolutely fine. There are some of us who are even optimistic about brexit. God forbid.

 

[martcov]

He called it an EU army.

One person steering the ship EU enterprise isn't one person in charge?

Juncker said about the powers the EU chancellor will have. You have always tried to deny it.

It isn't hard to get an EU passport. Then we have no control.

Maybe, but it is a Defence Union and is about pooling resources. 23 countries have signed up.

Juncker has put forward a policy agenda which proposes an EU chancellor ( minister of finance) to oversee certain budgetary aspects of Eurozone countries.

Try getting a German passport. You have to have lived in Germany 8 years, have no outstanding tax debts, have paid maintenance for any children, speak German, have a clean police record,
pass an exam about German political culture and the German constitution, be registered at a German address and show your latest tax return.

 

[clint van damme]

Says you. I thought we haven’t even left yet?

Yes we aren’t helped by a weak Mrs May and split cabinet but we will be absolutely fine. There are some of us who are even optimistic about brexit. God forbid.

Why are you optimistic?

 

[martcov]

Says you. I thought we haven’t even left yet?

Yes we aren’t helped by a weak Mrs May and split cabinet but we will be absolutely fine. There are some of us who are even optimistic about brexit. God forbid.

Says you who can’t know that it will be fine because we have not left yet. Yes the present government is weak, disorganised and lacking in a common policy for Brexit, and I can be therefore be justified in saying that, up until now Brexit is a cock up.

 

[chiefdave]

They have a method. We say what we will pay for. Then after everything is agreed they come oit with the bill that they have made up. And you think it is right?

There is no method, that is why they are negotiating. We know something of the EU's stance as they have published their position paper. We have not done the same from out side. If and when a methodology is agreed then that will be what is used. They aren't spending all this time negotiating to then make it up as you suggest.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Why are you optimistic?

Because we don't have the hidden agenda of wanting it to be shit getting in the way.

- Not necessarily aimed at you.

 

[clint van damme]

Because we don't have the hidden agenda of wanting it to be shit getting in the way.

- Not necessarily aimed at you.

any actual proper reasons, indicators that the economy is going to pick up, stuff like that?

If you can't give me any, can you give me a good reason why the Government ignored a Parliamentary vote in favour of releasing the Breixt impact reports? I can only think of one and it worries me.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Are you talking reported crimes or speculated crimes? Because I’m old enough to remember the perception that all black people are criminals in the white community, although I never believed it myself. That of course isn’t the case and never was. Still hasn’t stopped the fact that if you’re black even today you’re many more times likely to be stopped and searched than if you’re white so clearly some perceptions are hard to shake.

So in my deluded ignorant world I chose not to believe that all black people are criminals. Silly me.

I will point out again that if what you say is true a paper like the Mail would be all over it and they ain’t. In fact the only comment I can see from them is regarding school children having to have a police escort to school. Something that you reluctantly acknowledge but skip over.

Classic. You're losing the argument so it's time to scream 'racist'. I can't say I'm shocked.

The truth is, not only do you have absolutely no idea what's going on over there, but you're also in complete denial of any incident that happens regarding migrants and trouble. It makes debate with you pointless.

 

[martcov]

Trying to change the subject as usual?

No, just asking why the Brexit impact papers haven’t been released?

 

[martcov]

Classic. You're losing the argument so it's time to scream 'racist'. I can't say I'm shocked.

The truth is, not only do you have absolutely no idea what's going on over there, but you're also in complete denial of any incident that happens regarding migrants and trouble. It makes debate with you pointless.

Why are you so obsessed with incidents involving migrants?

 

[Astute]

I know how we got into this situation and am appalled... Brexit is proving to be a total cock up...

Joining a common market when it wasn't about joining a common market was as bad as it gets. We will find out about Brexit at a later date. But You will be a German by then.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

any actual proper reasons, indicators that the economy is going to pick up, stuff like that?

If you can't give me any, can you give me a good reason why the Government ignored a Parliamentary vote in favour of releasing the Breixt impact reports? I can only think of one and it worries me.

They probably haven't released it for the same reason why the Swedish police force won't release data on demographics of crime. They know the answers will fuel the fire even more.

I still think my reason stands though, a lot of people still believe if Brexit gets in the right hands and is done properly, the amount of opportunities that will come out of it will be a new lease of life. That is across all boards.

I can't say much for the economy. As I've said before, this was a cultural vote, not an economic one. I think most people who voted leave were prepared for some kind of economic downtime following June 23rd.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Why are you so obsessed with incidents involving migrants?

Are you now admitting that there are incidents?

I'm not obsessed, I'm only bring it up to illustrate my point that Merkel's policy, reinforced by the EU was extremely damaging, and also a huge part of the reason why the vote to leave won.

 

[Astute]

Says you who can’t know that it will be fine because we have not left yet. Yes the present government is weak, disorganised and lacking in a common policy for Brexit, and I can be therefore be justified in saying that, up until now Brexit is a cock up.

Says you that refuses to call an army an army.

 

[martcov]

Because we don't have the hidden agenda of wanting it to be shit getting in the way.

- Not necessarily aimed at you.

If there is a hidden agenda, it is trying to make a monumental cock up look good. No evidence of Brexit looking good yet. So we dig out papers from1971 and implicate Heath in unproven sex scandals. We have people talking about European armies, or non existent presidents of Europe and imagined open borders. Deflecting from the cock up, and hoping to fxxk that something positive to do with Brexit appears on the horizon.

It won’t happen.

 

[Kingokings204]

Why are you optimistic?

Get to govern ourselves again.
We can make decisions that matter and in my opinion brexit is a big reason why labour and tories aren’t the same anymore. There is a clear choice at the ballot box again.
Trade deals with the rest of the world that suit us. Opens ourselves up to the rest of the world.
Control immigration that has got way out of hand on the last 15 years.
Create a fairer society and don’t favor the EU over other world nations.
Spend our own money and not hand over 11b net every year for next to nothing. Or was it for “free trade?”
Not have unelected beaurocrats in Brussels control us.

Everything we have seen from Brussels and juncker and co makes me double glad we are leaving. thankfully. Even spreadsheet Phil sounded optimistic over brexit for once. I couldn’t believe my ears yesterday.

 

[clint van damme]

They probably haven't released it for the same reason why the Swedish police force won't release data on demographics of crime. They know the answers will fuel the fire even more.

I still think my reason stands though, a lot of people still believe if Brexit gets in the right hands and is done properly, the amount of opportunities that will come out of it will be a new lease of life. That is across all boards.

I can't say much for the economy. As I've said before, this was a cultural vote, not an economic one. I think most people who voted leave were prepared for some kind of economic downtime following June 23rd.

So what fire is it going to fuel?
Are you suggesting it contains bad news? Are you happy they ignored a democratic vote? What would happen if they ignored the Brexit vote, (it was only an advisory referendum).

To be fair to you, you have consistently said it was a cultural vote but a lot of people have been telling us we are going to be better off yet yesterdays budget had the worse growth figures of any modern budget. I would suggest the kind of economic downturn we are in for is going to be very bad. I would love to see some evidence that contradicts that statement.

 

[martcov]

Are you now admitting that there are incidents?

I'm not obsessed, I'm only bring it up to illustrate my point that Merkel's policy, reinforced by the EU was extremely damaging, and also a huge part of the reason why the vote to leave won.

How many refugees came to Britain?

In other words the lies from Farage who stood before a poster of refugees in Croatia were the reason for voting leave.

Extremely damaging? Not really.

We signed up to the Geneva Convention for a reason. Germans know what it is to be a refugee fleeing an advancing army.

How has this had an effect on you in Britain? It hasn’t. There was no reason to embark on this risky venture because of the Syrian refugees.

 

[Kingokings204]

If there is a hidden agenda, it is trying to make a monumental cock up look good. No evidence of Brexit looking good yet. So we dig out papers from1971 and implicate Heath in unproven sex scandals. We have people talking about European armies, or non existent presidents of Europe and imagined open borders. Deflecting from the cock up, and hoping to fxxk that something positive to do with Brexit appears on the horizon.

It won’t happen.

Desperate stuff as usual from you. What about the biggest lie of all “we are joining a common market” many labour politicians knew then this wasn’t a common market? You ignore this yet your happily admit to wanting a eu superstate and one Eu government, currency and border.

Very hypocritical of you.

 

[martcov]

Get to govern ourselves again.
We can make decisions that matter and in my opinion brexit is a big reason why labour and tories aren’t the same anymore. There is a clear choice at the ballot box again.
Trade deals with the rest of the world that suit us. Opens ourselves up to the rest of the world.
Control immigration that has got way out of hand on the last 15 years.
Create a fairer society and don’t favor the EU over other world nations.
Spend our own money and not hand over 11b net every year for next to nothing. Or was it for “free trade?”
Not have unelected beaurocrats in Brussels control us.

Everything we have seen from Brussels and juncker and co makes me double glad we are leaving. thankfully. Even spreadsheet Phil sounded optimistic over brexit for once. I couldn’t believe my ears yesterday.

Have you not noticed the increase of civil servants and bureaucrats being recruited to work in the agencies replacing the work done by EU bureaucrats?

You may be glad, but that doesn’t help.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

If there is a hidden agenda, it is trying to make a monumental cock up look good. No evidence of Brexit looking good yet. So we dig out papers from1971 and implicate Heath in unproven sex scandals. We have people talking about European armies, or non existent presidents of Europe and imagined open borders. Deflecting from the cock up, and hoping to fxxk that something positive to do with Brexit appears on the horizon.

It won’t happen.

You mean, you hope it won't happen.

The EU army is a threat, as is open borders. As I've said, the latter is a big part of the reason people voted to leave. I've crossed international borders within Europe so many times and have almost never been checked (unless flying). I honestly would not mind being stopped for five minutes if it meant we were safer. There is no doubt that we would be too.

 

[clint van damme]

Get to govern ourselves again.
We can make decisions that matter and in my opinion brexit is a big reason why labour and tories aren’t the same anymore. There is a clear choice at the ballot box again.
Trade deals with the rest of the world that suit us. Opens ourselves up to the rest of the world.
Control immigration that has got way out of hand on the last 15 years.
Create a fairer society and don’t favor the EU over other world nations.
Spend our own money and not hand over 11b net every year for next to nothing. Or was it for “free trade?”
Not have unelected beaurocrats in Brussels control us.

Everything we have seen from Brussels and juncker and co makes me double glad we are leaving. thankfully. Even spreadsheet Phil sounded optimistic over brexit for once. I couldn’t believe my ears yesterday.

so only one of those reasons is to do with the economy which is my main concern, ("Trade deals with the rest of the world that suit us. Opens ourselves up to the rest of the world.")
And to be honest that is just rhetoric. I don't currently see any evidence of these much fabled trade deals actually happening, particularly if we leave with no deal, the picture will be a lot brighter if we do.

And if we want to control immigration we are still going to have to fund proper border controls, do you think that will happen given the cuts happening to every other part of the public sector?

Do you think it could be coincidence that we leave the UK at around the same time as the EU introduces stricter tax evasion laws?

As for "Not have unelected beaurocrats in Brussels control us.". We have a government who is making a habit of trying to circumnavigate or ignore parliament. Is that really an improvement?

 

[Astute]

No, just asking why the Brexit impact papers haven’t been released?

It took nearly 50 years for us to find out that they knew we were not joining a common market like we were told.

So what do you mean? See which politician lied the most?