Juncker said an army is not a project of the near future. Pretty clear to me. As I said... not in my lifetime. He proposed an alternative for the present which does not go nearly as far as creating an army. The Poles have joined up, but have said they would leave if things went too far in this direction.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (63 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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Juncker said an army is not a project of the near future. Pretty clear to me. As I said... not in my lifetime. He proposed an alternative for the present which does not go nearly as far as creating an army. The Poles have joined up, but have said they would leave if things went too far in this direction.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
more bad news:
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can't believe some people still have an unwavering faith in this whole brexit process.
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can't believe some people still have an unwavering faith in this whole brexit process.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
The EU has been moving toward that goal for many years, just like the European super state, there were provisions in the Lisbon treaty.
EU leaders launch ‘historic’ plan for joint military force
Astute
Well-Known Member
Hardly anyone defends the Tories or May. So I don't get the chance to put my point across much. Corbyn is seen as Labours saviour by some. Those who detest us leaving the EU love Corbyn. And Corbyn wants out of the EU. I just don't get it.
The only good thing I ever say about Bliar was his charisma. Something that has been lacking from a Labour leader since. And some try to say that Corbyn is charismatic. But they can't explain why.
The Tories were so weak the last general election. They were there for the taking. And they still nearly got the majority.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I still can't believe the unending love for the EU after all the truth has come out.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
you can find those type of contradictions pretty much anywhere you look with the exception of the Libs. They are pretty much pro EU throughout their party and throughout the whole process.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s like he hasn’t read his own links. If he had when you read the reasoning why some sort of a joint defence policy seems common sense when you consider how volatile Putins Russia is and witness how impotent the UN was in situations like the former Yugoslavia. The effects of that being felt just this week. That’s ethnic cleansing witnessed by our own troops because the UN couldn’t agree on jack. British forces were a mile down the road while men and boys were being slaughtered and couldn’t do a thing because of UN weakness. Anyone who’s ever seen the footage of distraught British soldiers sat on tanks hearing first hand what was happening down the road and one captain admitting he knew what was happening but couldn’t do anything without the UN’s say so would or should be moved to do something better than that.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
but you and others still haven't said a word about the frankly abysmal economic predictions that have come out this week, I find it hard to comprehend.
None of this would be happening if we had voted remain so as flawed as the EU is wouldn't we have been better staying in, at least until we had a clear plan and decent leadership to get us out?
Yes. That is exactly what I said. 23 members have signed up to the project- which isn’t an army and which is voluntary.
And which, because of the current US attitude that Europe should do more to defend itself, is a very prudent idea.
Seeing as Juncker admitted that an army was not a project of the near future in one of your several posts confirming that there are no plans, I think your title suggestion is quite apt.
Astute
Well-Known Member
And as I keep saying we won't have a clue until we see what sort of deal that we get.
Some like to ignore those in the EU that want a good deal. They just want to give full exposure to those who say we will crash and burn. The same people got the crash of 2007 wrong. They are wrong more than right. And they are supposed to be experts. But saying rhis leaves me open to thise trying to make out that I am anti EU and love the Tories for some reason.
Decent leadership? Could be a long time before that happens. No party seems to be in a rush to put their best people forward. All parties have much better.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
but it has transpired this week we have the lowest growth of any G7 country.
The lowest predicted growth of any modern budget. That wages won't get back to pre crash levels for 2 decades and that the deficit won't be cleared until at least 2030.
To add to this we are having to use valuable money to fund Brexit. I can't find anyone contradicting this but a lot of people don't seem bothered.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Position paper transmitted to the UK: essential principles on the financial settlement
Here’s the link Dave put up for you several pages ago that you keep ignoring. The EU have set their stall out. It’s our government that is posturing because they don’t know what to do, hence the emergency cabinet meeting.
Hence the downgraded growth forecast.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It is a wait and see thing. Not going to panic. We will still be in growth. We are not starting from a lower base like other countries.
Nobody can say it will be good. Nobody can say it will be bad.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Is that right?
Dave says we should agree to paying for everything without knowing how much it will cost. Not even to the nearest 10 billion.
It is all posturing. Maybe it would be best if we acted like c.unts like Barnier and Juncker do. It could all of been done in a friendly and constructive way. But they have made it as difficult as they can.
Actually it is not a wait and see thing. The effects are here now and are being measured. Do you prefer going downwards towards a lower base, or coming upwards from a lower base? If I were younger, I would be looking at countries moving upwards as opposed to a country which has manoeuvred itself into a difficult position to place my future in.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
you're ignoring the facts mate. We're talking about the G7 countries, none of them are starting from a low base, (maybe Japan).
And by the way, a senior Indian diplomat has today said that the price for a free trade deal with Indian will be easy access to visas for Indian citizens and even then a deal may not get signed until 2030. So much for the fabled free trade deals we'll be signing a one minute past midnight on March 29th/30th.
Britain must accept more immigrants if it wants a free trade deal, Indian diplomat warns
Imagine the reaction of certain sections of the leave vote when they find out we might be getting more brown people
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The honest man Dr Liam Fox also promised us that the Brexit negotiations would be the easiest in the country's history. Thank God we have such a fine and honourable man representing us.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Can you stop insulting people even when in jest?
I don't disagree. But they are all forecasts. And most will be wrong. It could even be worse for us. We just don't know.
But most of our trade is outside the EU. Some would like that fact to be hidden. Business leaders throughout the EU want a good deal as we buy much more than we sell. So it isn't time to slit your wrists yet.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
How is he insulting people? We were told that a large reason for the leave vote was due to migration, especially eastern Europeans.
It sounds like you've been listening to the likes of Davies who entered negotiations without knowing how the EU works.
Friendly constructive way? We’ve got the likes of Davis and Johnson saying stupid provocative things and wanting their cake and eating it. Or that the EU can go whistle...
Or May not clarifying what she means by honouring commitments. Or Davis turning up at meetings with no papers on the table.
I posted the link of the leaked papers which the Irish got hold of with the opinions of EU members on our negotiating ‚skills‘. They think we are amateurs.
The ‚thick as mince‘ Davis just told the Germans they should put prosperity before politics.... exactly the criticism of Brexit levelled by Europeans.
Even you made the comment ‚tell us something we don’t know‘. Now you are suggesting that Barnier and, of course, Juncker are the bad guys and it could have been different if they weren’t so difficult. No. We have a useless government where the PM cannot even control her own cabinet and even if Barnier and Juncker were the friendliest and most constructive people in the world, we would still have fxxked it.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
what insult? It's true, for certain sections of the leave vote it was nearly all about immigration, (ESB1 said it was about immigration for the majority, I'm not sure I agree). So how do you think those people will feel if we end up with increased immigration from the sub continent?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Said all along that the only thing that will change is the demographics when it comes to immigration. Seems India is jockeying for position to make sure that they’re at the front of the queue for the replacement immigration to EU immigration into the UK. I wonder how many more developing countries will take the same stance as India as part of any trade deal? Maybe that’s what people meant when they said countries will be lining up to do a deal with us when we leave the EU? I doubt it though, we’re talking about people who thought everyone will bow down before us with a begging bowl hoping to do a trade deal on our own terms.
Not happening so far. It seems the EU being a protectionist organisation also gave us some protection too.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Just spent 3 pages on here “discussing” with someone about how our culture is being “diluted” and he doesn’t like it. He fails to understand that foreign influence has not diluted our culture on the contrary it’s shaped it. His traditional British Sunday roast has been reduced to beef without foreign veg that’s been introduced into the UK over centuries. He can’t even have it in a sandwich because bread is an Egyptian invention.
Yes. Our culture is based upon being invaded and being the invader. We were raided and sometimes subdued by various tribes throughout our early history. Before and after the Roman invasion and 400 years of being a part of their empire. 1066 saw the invasion and subjection by the Normans. Around the Elizabethan and Henry VIII times we became a World power because of our navy and continued adding bits on to our Empire. All these invaders left a trace, from our language to our buildings and way of life. We bought home parts of other people’s cultures from our Empire and, since the war, millions of migrants from our ex colonies. This increased the ethnic variety in our population. Now we have EU migrants. The end result is a modern society which is one of the top few countries in the world. Despite people claiming our culture has been diluted... If you removed the last 2000 years of being invaded or invading, you would end up with an uncultured primitive people speaking a language with limited vocabulary. Our language is one of the richest in terms of vocabulary ( if not the richest ? ) because of our absorption of other people’s language and cultures.
One reason for our success has been migration. We could not have increased our GDP to today’s level without immigration after WWII. WWII being a major cause of so called dilution... if you like to call it that. That was the reason for the EU. To end European wars and their destruction. WWII was caused by Nation States following selfish nationalistic ambitions.
I cannot understand the desire to turn the clock back and try and recreate an ultra nationalist environment. What could possibly go wrong?
I am all for supporting national sports teams and personalities. But to try and become the Britain of the 30s and 40s boldly standing against Germany and Europe is sick. Then comes the revolting Farage, as an example, encouraging “youngsters” to watch the British Expeditionary Forces heroically saving themselves from a Germany that no longer exists. Really. Some people need to get a perspective on where we are, and how we got there.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying we should pay some plucked out of thin air figure. You're not going to get an exact figure now because some items in the calculation will rely on things that haven't even happened yet!
I'm saying that reading the EU's position paper there is nothing in there that seems unreasonable. I've asked you numerous times to say what in that paper you specifically disagree with but you never answer.
I'm more than happy to change my opinion of the EU's position if someone can make a case for doing so but our government won't, or can't, give a similar statement of our position and those saying the EU are being unreasonable, such as yourself, won't say what in the paper they don't agree with.
Astute
Well-Known Member
What is a 'brown' person?
Astute
Well-Known Member
I have answered it several times. So here we go again.
They say 3 things must be sorted out first. Our exit bill, the rights of EU residents that have come here to live and what will happen with the border in Ireland. It all sounds simple if you don't consider it.
So the exit bill. We will be in the EU until 2019 minimum. The budget was set until 2020. So if we stay until 2020 what bill will there be? Then you have the EIB. They have now said that we have to pay towards projects for years to come. This includes projects not even started or agreed on. This is a massive amount. So how can this be under funds already agreed? How many tens of billions could this become? And whilst in the EU we are a member. But when we leave the EU we can't be a member anymore. But although we can't be a member they still want the full 16.1% off us. So how many more.dodgy looking loans do you think they can give out in the next 8 years or so? Then you have the piss take. They have stopped most investments in the UK. So we can't be a member, no investments in the UK but we are up for the funds for many years to come. Barnier is now saying that we must pay our 14% cost of running the EU. We have always paid 12.5% since Maggie got the rebate because of unfair advantages to French farmers. He wants to take this away. Doesn't sound a lot. But that is 4.5 billion a year. So over 3 years it adds 13.5 billion. So no. I don't trust them. They are putting it up as much as they can. But we still must say what we will pay for without not having a clue how much each part will cost. Would you go into a shop if you didn't know the price of anything but would only find out when it was time to pay?
Immigrants rights? This should be sorted out and signed straight away. This affects millions of people. People from the UK have made their lives in the EU. People from the EU have made their lives in the UK. They should not be used as pawns in a stupid game of bluff and double bluff. They should.not be used to inflate peoples egos. It should be signed now so they can know where their futures lie. Borh sides are saying the deal is about done. But it can't be finalised until the Brexit bill....where a bill isn't given.....is sorted. Fuck them. Put the people first. Have they considered what it is doing to those affected?
The Irish border. Either a massive mistake putting this in the first part of talks or a masterstroke by Juncker to cause shit during negotiations. What sort of border will there be? Well that all depends on what sort of trade deal that can be negotiated. Yes that sounds easy enough. But what happens with the Irish border must be decided before they even start negotiations on a trade deal. A tariff free deal would make it easy. Full tariffs would make it hard. But this needs to be decided before we know the slightest on any trade deal. So how can any decision be made?
Yes I wanted us to stay in the EU. But in the back of my mind I wanted what was best for my younger kids and my grandkids. House prices are getting stupid. My eldest kids have bought their own properties. But it is getting harder all the time. And with our population going up by over half a million each year it will keep on getting harder. I don't trust any political party to change how many houses are being built. The government will be either Labour or the Tories. They have done nothing about the situation.
The NHS can't cope in many areas. I see it the most when someone comes here and needs to use it. They are amazed how easy it is here. The last time was when my daughter in laws mother was here. She was having breathing difficulties. She walked into a near empty hospital. She was seen straight away. Her follow up appointment the next day with our doctor was an appointment an hour after calling up for one. This is what we are used to. This is how it should be. How many have it the same? Immigrants don't come here to live. We don't have homeless people on the streets. House prices are cheap in some areas. Properties start at about 40k in some areas. You can get a 6 bed house for just over 100k in some areas. Skilled wages are high. Crime is low. I have a 13.5 mile beach on my doorstep where holiday makers don't go. I have the Lake District that I can see from the beach. People are very friendly. People have pride in qhere they live. So it isn't a scumbag area that makes house prices cheap. The worse areas are as good as the better areas in some cities. But when I go elsewhere I see the difference. We are getting traffic lights on the M6 as it can't cope with the traffic that has been getting worse over the last few years.
Then some try to call me racist for saying what I have observed.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Calm down dear.
Most of our trade is outside the EU. It is down to those that you stoutly defend in the EU for what sort of trade deal there is. But whatever happens you will still defend them.
If they want what is best for the people of the EU there will be a good deal. How much faith do you have in the EU for wanting what is best for the people of the EU?
Whatever trade deal, immigration deal or Irish border deal there is has to be ratified by MEPs and heads of state from 27 countries. Do you think that they will ratify a deal that is not best for them? Are all these people in on a scurrilous plot organised by a few evil people?
EIB:
Brexit is 'biggest travesty of modern times', says head of bank | Metro News
It is us who want to stay in the EIB or at least have a relationship with the EIB... although we are leaving. The EU is sceptical about that.
It is us who won’t guarantee citizens rights because of people like yourself who believe that EU citizens would have more rights than yourself.
It is us that don’t want Northern Ireland to remain in the customs union which would create a sea border and solve the land border problem.
It is us who haven’t said what we think we should pay as a divorce bill. The EU have laid out what they think we should be liable for.
The most vehement anti migration areas in Germany are largely those with the least migrants. From what you say here, it seems to be the same in the UK.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I'd imagine the people coming from India will be brown. You know I'm right so are trying to play semantics. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, but there will be plenty who won't be happy.
Of course, the Government might say no deal and that's one of our target markets out the window.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So you honestly don't know how much of an insult it is?
My eldest daughter is half asian. She is black. But she looks like she has a sun tan.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
How would you feel if people were ranting on about migration to her and blaming her grandparents/great grandparents for a lot of the countries problems?
Fair play to you though, I had an Indian girlfriend when I was 14 (18years ago) and took quite a bit of abuse from white people for it, even got attacked by some neo Nazis. One time a group of Asian lads asked me if she was my girlfriend, instead of getting the anticipated abuse, they said how happy they are that we were a mixed couple.
Luckily things have (mostly) changed for the better now.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I'm using it to parody people who moan about people coming here. You know as well as I do that swapping white immigrants for non white immigrants is going to have certain sections of our country going mental.
Like I say, if that's what it takes to tap into a market of a billion people then I've no problem and it's not like the Indians that are already here haven't contributed, they've probably contributed more than most.