The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (305 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

I’m stating Northern Ireland is British. No more or less. You’re going to in depth to a very complicated situation. I try and keep it simple and Northern Ireland are a British country and Ireland is a republic. There is the border problem to solve as a result.

I don’t want to go into every Irish citizen and ask them as I don’t have the time these days.:wideyed:

it's not a simple issue so trying to keep it simple is pointless.
As for going to every Irish citizen, they had a referendum to change their constitution and rescind their claim to the 6 counties that constitute the North.
To install a hard border goes against that referendum as well as the GFA. I thought Brexiteers knew this as they knew exactly what they were voting for?

 

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[Grendel]

Wouldn't every single person who was banging on about taking back control of our borders want and expect there to be a hard border complete with passport checks and all the usual immigration controls you'd expect when entering another country?

I’ve been to loads of non Eu countries in the last few years and other than one big queue access is easier than getting through Paris or Amsterdam passport control.

I don’t know what you are on about.

 

[Astute]

I know a few people from the north who prefer to describe themselves as Northern Irish, not British. They also want NI to remain in the CU and SM. It's not going to be possible for NI to leave both and avoid a hard border.

I know Scottish people who prefer to describe themselves as being Scottish and not British.

I know Welsh people who prefer to describe themselves as Welsh and not British.

I know People from England who prefer to describe themselves as English and not British.

And they are all in my family.

Nothing wrong with being patriotic. Or should we just have a GB football team?

Or should we quickly built hard borders?

 

[Astute]

Do you? It doesn't sound like it

You don't need a passport to cross in Ireland, which I believe he is referring to.

So you didn't read what I said. How unusual.

 

[Grendel]

Funny thing is Sick Boy predicts Scottish independence in the next few years. As they will immediately apply to rejoin the EU that means a hard border.

So he seems not to see it as an issue

The term hard border conjures up images of iron gates, barbed wire, snarling alsatians and sinister security guards - and deliberately so.

How very silly.

 

[Astute]

That has nothing to do with what Dave posted whatsoever. Why not join in the debate and demonatrate your neutrality rather than coming out with soundbites from the Mail?

Isn't it strange how you twist what is said and then Mart agrees with you.

Dave said that we were not told of the implications of us leaving. Most of us would agree. All we were told was things to put enough fear into us that would make us vote remain.

So what did you hear being said that was different? Because both sides did project fear and nothing else.

 

[Astute]

You don’t need photographic proof of who you are to cross from north to south. The only reason you need photographic evidence of who you are to cross the water into Ireland is as a result of the September 11th attacks and zero to do with anything discussed. If you flew to Newcastle from Birmingham you need the same photographic evidence of who you are.

Who said from North to South? Making it up as you go along again. You don't need a passport as I said but you need photographic proof to be safe. So most already take their passport as I said.

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom

Do you still want to try and prove me wrong yet again and fail?

And yet again someone is wrong and Mart agrees with them.

 

[skybluetony176]

Who said from North to South? Making it up as you go along again. You don't need a passport as I said but you need photographic proof to be safe. So most already take their passport as I said.

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom

Do you still want to try and prove me wrong yet again and fail?

And yet again someone is wrong and Mart agrees with them.

The problem and conversation is about traveling between north and south not the issues of boarding a plane post 9/11. You should at least try and make it relevant if you’re going to join in a conversation. At least KOK understands what’s being discussed even if we don’t agree on solutions.

 

[martcov]

Who said from North to South? Making it up as you go along again. You don't need a passport as I said but you need photographic proof to be safe. So most already take their passport as I said.

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom

Do you still want to try and prove me wrong yet again and fail?

And yet again someone is wrong and Mart agrees with them.

I never disputed the free travel area. I am interested how that will work if we have a hard Brexit. We’ve had it since the 20s, and it continued whilst we were both in the EU. Now we have a new situation. Why would the 27 allow this in the case of hard Brexit? Don’t quote Norway as they have free movement.

 

[Astute]

The problem and conversation is about traveling between north and south not the issues of boarding a plane post 9/11. You should at least try and make it relevant if you’re going to join in a conversation. At least KOK understands what’s being discussed even if we don’t agree on solutions.

What has 9/11 got to do with it?

Nothing.

But you don't want to admit being wrong as usual.

 

[Kingokings204]

The border will be clearer, but not clear cut? Explain.

I just meant it’s not clear cut at the moment but in time it will become clearer. In my opinion a solution will be found.

 

[martcov]

I just meant it’s not clear cut at the moment but in time it will become clearer. In my opinion a solution will be found.

Of course a solution will be found. This whole conversation is about what it will be. I’m for moving the border to the sea as that would be easiest to control and keep the GFA in effect.

The DUP will jump up and down, but they will have to respect the GFA and the vote for border controls through Brexit.

ROI and the EU don’t want a border on their territory. We want border control, so it will have to be between Brexit Britain and Remain NI and the ROI.

Enjoy.

 

[skybluetony176]

What has 9/11 got to do with it?

Nothing.

But you don't want to admit being wrong as usual.

I have been travelling to Ireland by sea and air to both Belfast and Dublin my whole life, that’s 43 years. And I’m telling you that I never once had to show photo identification pre 9/11. In fact I didn’t even have a passport until I was 19 for the first time I traveled abroad. That’s at least 19 times (sometimes we’d go twice in a year) pre 9/11 with no photo ID available if I did have to show it, which I didn’t. 9/11 changed everything except the north/south border and its the north/south border that’s likely to change because of brexit. Try telling me I’m wrong when you have an idea of what you’re talking about.

 

[skybluetony176]

Of course a solution will be found. This whole conversation is about what it will be. I’m for moving the border to the sea as that would be easiest to control and keep the GFA in effect.

The DUP will jump up and down, but they will have to respect the GFA and the vote for border controls through Brexit.

ROI and the EU don’t want a border on their territory. We want border control, so it will have to be between Brexit Britain and Remain NI and the ROI.

Enjoy.

Channel four did a thing recently where they gave a load of English people a blank map of Ireland and asked them to draw where the north south border was. Unsurprisingly hardly any of them knew. Certainly no one drew it on the coast separating two U.K. countries and that’s a real prospect. An EU border dividing the UK. I wonder how many of the we know what we voted for mob voted for that? Or even considered it.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Protestants voted remain on mass

No....no they didn't.

Catholics voted to remain......Protestants voted to leave.

https://www.qub.ac.uk/brexit/Brexitfilestore/Filetoupload,728121,en.pdf



As for anecdotal evidence, I used to travel to Derry 4 times per year for work, as well as Belfast, Cork, Limerick & Dublin on many occasions both pre & post the Good Friday agreement........I have ALWAYS had to show photo ID........maybe I just look dodgy

 

[skybluetony176]

No....no they didn't.

Catholics voted to remain......Protestants voted to leave.

https://www.qub.ac.uk/brexit/Brexitfilestore/Filetoupload,728121,en.pdf



As for anecdotal evidence, I used to travel to Derry 4 times per year for work, as well as Belfast, Cork, Limerick & Dublin on many occasions both pre & post the Good Friday agreement........I have ALWAYS had to show photo ID........maybe I just look dodgy

You should probably read what you link before you link it. You’ve just disproved your own post with the evidence that you’ve linked. Still, saved me the job. Cheers.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

You should probably read what you link before you link it. You’ve just disproved your own post with the evidence that you’ve linked. Still, saved me the job. Cheers.

I don't see how.....it says....

Catholics overwhelmingly voted to stay by a proportion of 85 to 15 while Protestants voted to leave by a proportion of 60 to 40. Similarly, two thirds of self-described ‘unionists’ voted to leave while almost 90 percent of self-described ‘nationalists’ voted to remain

 

[Astute]

I have been travelling to Ireland by sea and air to both Belfast and Dublin my whole life, that’s 43 years. And I’m telling you that I never once had to show photo identification pre 9/11. In fact I didn’t even have a passport until I was 19 for the first time I traveled abroad. That’s at least 19 times (sometimes we’d go twice in a year) pre 9/11 with no photo ID available if I did have to show it, which I didn’t. 9/11 changed everything except the north/south border and its the north/south border that’s likely to change because of brexit. Try telling me I’m wrong when you have an idea of what you’re talking about.

Who do you travel with? They need reporting.

://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Would you like to explain this then?

 

[Astute]

I don't see how.....it says....

Catholics overwhelmingly voted to stay by a proportion of 85 to 15 while Protestants voted to leave by a proportion of 60 to 40. Similarly, two thirds of self-described ‘unionists’ voted to leave while almost 90 percent of self-described ‘nationalists’ voted to remain

Looks like he is digging a hole so deep that he will be in Australia soon.

 

[skybluetony176]

Even the Brexit Committee of MP's set up to oversee Brexit say that goverment proposals aren't workable on the Irish Border.

MPs doubt Brexit Irish border fix

 

[Astute]

Even the Brexit Committee of MP's set up to oversee Brexit say that goverment proposals aren't workable on the Irish Border.

MPs doubt Brexit Irish border fix

And as usual MP's are clueless until you find an article that goes with what you say. Then suddenly they know everything.

 

[skybluetony176]

Who do you travel with? They need reporting.

://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Would you like to explain this then?

The clue is in your own link you moron. Try reading it again and try reading some of the links within the page itself. It wasn't written in stone in the 1920's never to be changed. It's been amended many times to accommodate changes not just in Ireland and the UK but also the world. You're just reading a guide to the current post 9/11 post GFA version of it. Are you really this stupid or is it an act?

 

[skybluetony176]

And as usual MP's are clueless until you find an article that goes with what you say. Then suddenly they know everything.

This is MP's saying MP's are clueless. Not really sure what point you think you are making.

 

[skybluetony176]

Looks like he is digging a hole so deep that he will be in Australia soon.

Oh, the irony.

 

[skybluetony176]

I don't see how.....it says....

Catholics overwhelmingly voted to stay by a proportion of 85 to 15 while Protestants voted to leave by a proportion of 60 to 40. Similarly, two thirds of self-described ‘unionists’ voted to leave while almost 90 percent of self-described ‘nationalists’ voted to remain

Because you said Protestants voted to leave, although you have just acknowledged 40% didn't.

 

[Astute]

The clue is in your own link you moron. Try reading it again and try reading some of the links within the page itself. It wasn't written in stone in the 1920's never to be changed. It's been amended many times to accommodate changes not just in Ireland and the UK but also the world. You're just reading a guide to the current post 9/11 post GFA version of it. Are you really this stupid or is it an act?

Moron?

Show some evidence then.

 

[Astute]

This is MP's saying MP's are clueless. Not really sure what point you think you are making.

MP's are clueless. Agreed?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Looks like he is digging a hole so deep that he will be in Australia soon.

I see Tony has attempted to gloss over the fact that he was completely wrong about the protestant vote......

.....and then gloss over his piss poor attempt to discredit my evidence by accusing me of not reading my own link......which clearly he didn't read himself....or maybe he just didn't understand it.

Anyway......Happy Friday Folks.

 

[Astute]

Because you said Protestants voted to leave, although you have just acknowledged 40% didn't.

So what is a 60/40 vote then?

 

[Captain Dart]

Channel four did a thing recently where they gave a load of English people a blank map of Ireland and asked them to draw where the north south border was. Unsurprisingly hardly any of them knew. Certainly no one drew it on the coast separating two U.K. countries and that’s a real prospect. An EU border dividing the UK. I wonder how many of the we know what we voted for mob voted for that? Or even considered it.

Watch as British people struggle to draw where Irish border is

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Because you said Protestants voted to leave, although you have just acknowledged 40% didn't.

Ha ha.....I posted a link to evidence that proved you were talking out of your arse.........just admit you were wrong & move on.

 

[Astute]

I see Tony has attempted to gloss over the fact that he was completely wrong about the protestant vote......

.....and then gloss over his piss poor attempt to discredit my evidence by accusing me of not reading my own link......which clearly he didn't read himself....or maybe he just didn't understand it.

Anyway......Happy Friday Folks.

Just a normal day for Tony the Tory :smuggrin:

 

[chiefdave]

We as leavers do want border controls. I repeat I don’t know one leaver who wants a border with Ireland.

But you can't have both. You either have border controls or you retain the open border between NI and ROI. That's where the border between the UK and EU will be.

I’ve been to loads of non Eu countries in the last few years and other than one big queue access is easier than getting through Paris or Amsterdam passport control.

But that's the point. You say when you go to those counties there is a big queue. What about the 35K people who work on the other side of the border to which they live. Are they all expect to queue up twice a day?

 

[Astute]

Ha ha.....I posted a link to evidence that proved you were talking out of your arse.........just admit you were wrong & move on.

You have more chance of Juncker admitting his part in the massive tax dodge for Luxembourg than of Tony the Tory admitting he is wrong. And we know that as he has enough opportunities to do so.

 

[skybluetony176]

Moron?

Show some evidence then.

You've shown the evidence yourself. It lists some of the amendment in your own link. There is even Links within your link to the amendments, It talks about dates when further agreements have been made, It talks about dates when agreements end, it talks about Indian and Chinese immigrant rights between the UK and Ireland, amendments that have just come into force in the last 2-3 years. Please tell me this is an act, you really not that stupid that you post up links that discredit yourself and you don't even realise.