The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (356 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

I agree but it can’t involve Ni being different to Britain. It is part of Great Britain for goodness sake.

No it isn't.

 

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[Kingokings204]

It's not part of Great Britain, it's part of the United Kingdom

In that case then, we will end up with a hard border.

Sorry I did mean UK. You knew what I meant I’m sure as all the know it alls came out and corrected me in typical fury and anger as normal. Genuine apologies again.

I don’t think it doesn’t have to end in a hard border. I don’t think it will. The Uk government has said it won’t implement a hard border itself. If one is erected it would be the Irish government to do it but they said they don’t want one either.

The point being there is no appetite from ether side for it.

 

[skybluetony176]

Watching the news. What a mess.

 

[Kingokings204]

Watching the news. What a mess.

So anyway. Where does this leave brexit? The EU are united behind Dublin and won’t accept a hard border between the North and South of Ireland and the DUP won’t accept a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the U.K. meaning that it won’t get voted through parliament as the Tories don’t have a majority without the DUP.

Yes that’s about the size of it. It’s a stalemate at the moment.

 

[martcov]

Sorry I did mean UK. You knew what I meant I’m sure as all the know it alls came out and corrected me in typical fury and anger as normal. Genuine apologies again.

I don’t think it doesn’t have to end in a hard border. I don’t think it will. The Uk government has said it won’t implement a hard border itself. If one is erected it would be the Irish government to do it but they said they don’t want one either.

The point being there is no appetite from ether side for it.

So now we’re know it alls for pointing out your crass mistakes. You are the one who told us the Northern Irish are all proud Brits. Let’s see what happens. You are the one who said everyone knew what they were voting for. Obviously not. You were the one who said people voted for control of our borders. How? No one wants a border. Apart from your minority proud Brit unionist party. How do you know whether the Irish will erect it? If anyone erects it on the ROI side, it will be an external EU border. Maybe the EU erect it. Or, maybe the Brexit Brits will have to erect it to stop smuggling including people smuggling if the EU refuse to erect one.

 

[skybluetony176]

If the DUP pull out of their arraignment with the government does that mean a general election?

According to reports on the news TM though she was going to the meeting with the DUP on board and then had to phone a friend when she learned that the DUP were having a press conference declaring that they weren’t supporting the deal. Then later on you get the Irish leader actually showing some sympathy with TM while pointing out that he thought the deal was agreed and just needed everyone to sign.

 

[chiefdave]

If the DUP pull out of their arraignment with the government does that mean a general election?

Technically no but in practice yes it would. The Tories would have a minority government so would struggle to pass anything in parliament. They would really have no other choice than to call an election unless they can find someone else to go in with them.

 

[Marty]

The Irish border situation is something I didn't even think about and have no idea how to solve it, it'll cause problems whatever way they try to resolve it.

I would be interested to hear possible solutions though.

 

[Kingokings204]

So now we’re know it alls for pointing out your crass mistakes. You are the one who told us the Northern Irish are all proud Brits. Let’s see what happens. You are the one who said everyone knew what they were voting for. Obviously not. You were the one who said people voted for control of our borders. How? No one wants a border. Apart from your minority proud Brit unionist party. How do you know whether the Irish will erect it? If anyone erects it on the ROI side, it will be an external EU border. Maybe the EU erect it. Or, maybe the Brexit Brits will have to erect it to stop smuggling including people smuggling if the EU refuse to erect one.

I made a rushed error, the way you act it was if I voted for brexit!

Hang on, you’re the same poster who is in denial about German politics and merkels situation at the moment. You deny the rise of far right and far left groups across the EU. You told every leave voter to be ashamed of themselves in what was a free democratic choice and vote. (My personal favourite) You demonstrated a clear ignorance to the bond markets earlier this thread. You can’t admit Sweden is in a really bad place because of their violent crime rate rise. The nhs and housing market and suppressed wages has nothing to do mass immigration. Oh and Greece was fucked anyway was a classic line from you.

As for the border in Ireland, there is no appetite for a hard border from anyone. It requires a special solution to a very complex country and situation. Again you seem to be wanting a hard border? I know you don’t but stop banging on about it then. No one does.

 

[dutchman]

The Irish border situation is something I didn't even think about and have no idea how to solve it, it'll cause problems whatever way they try to resolve it.

I would be interested to hear possible solutions though.

Yes simple, the Republic of Ireland can leave the EU superstate any time it likes.

 

[skybluetony176]

I would be interested to hear possible solutions though.

Dump brexit? It was only an advisory referendum after all

We’ve give it our best go and it didn’t really work out. It’s become a girlfriend who was appealing while you were getting to know her but now you’ve got to know her you’ve realised she’s a psychopath

 

[Marty]

Dump brexit? It was only an advisory referendum after all

We’ve give it our best go and it didn’t really work out. It’s become a girlfriend who was appealing while you were getting to know her but now you’ve got to know her you’ve realised she’s a psychopath

Well, thats me convinced. Brexit is off!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Technically no but in practice yes it would. The Tories would have a minority government so would struggle to pass anything in parliament. They would really have no other choice than to call an election unless they can find someone else to go in with them.

Lib Dems in exchange for another referendum...?

 

[Liquid Gold]

There is just no way that I can see this is going to work, especially now parliament has the final say on any Brexit deal.

1. NI is given special treatment as was mooted today - DUP votes it down.
2. We refuse Ireland's demands and a hard border comes into effect and we revert to WTO tariffs - The Conservative centrists vote it down.
3. We retain access to the single market, customs union and freedom of movement - The Conservative right votes it down

The problem is made worse given that we're on a limited time frame. I personally don't see how we get anywhere without another election but the Conservatives will never call one because they're scared to death of Corbyn becoming PM

 

[fernandopartridge]

Foster is an English name. Oh that’s not her maiden name you might say. You’re right, her maiden name is Kelly. Wholly Irish and predominantly Catholic which can only really lead you to one conclusion. Her family converted to the Protestant faith and most likely during the potato famine to receive the kings shilling as it was known. She’s as Irish as they come, Scotland has nothing to do with her unless her family left Ireland to return at some point later. In which case she’s still as Irish as they come, Northern Irish but still from the Ireland. What you’ve done is the equivalent of telling someone of Indian heritage and their ilk to move back to Pakistan. It’s ignorance of the highest level.

You then bring hard brexit into it as if you somehow understand where she is coming from. You don’t. She needs a hard brexit. The face of Northern Ireland is changing, the Catholic faith has caught up the Protestant faith in terms of numbers and set to pass and now you have the scenario where a large portion of the Protestant faith especially in the border counties like Fermanagh where she is from rely on the south for trade and work would rather see a united Ireland than lose their livelihood which is what a hard brexit with a border in Ireland could do. She won’t accept a border with the rest of the U.K. because she knows ultimately where that is going, so she’s fighting to remain British. Regardless of the costs. She knows the feeling on the ground, she’s not stupid. Especially the feeling in her own constituency and she’s fighting to save her identity.

Fair enough Tony, thanks for the explanation and apologies for the wind up!

Your second paragraph shows why I'm so disparaging of the DUP. They will never get beyond their sectarian beliefs.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Astute]

There is just no way that I can see this is going to work, especially now parliament has the final say on any Brexit deal.

1. NI is given special treatment as was mooted today - DUP votes it down.
2. We refuse Ireland's demands and a hard border comes into effect and we revert to WTO tariffs - The Conservative centrists vote it down.
3. We retain access to the single market, customs union and freedom of movement - The Conservative right votes it down

The problem is made worse given that we're on a limited time frame. I personally don't see how we get anywhere without another election but the Conservatives will never call one because they're scared to death of Corbyn becoming PM

It isn't just the Tories that are scared of Corbyn becoming PM.

 

[Astute]

So anyway. Where does this leave brexit? The EU are united behind Dublin and won’t accept a hard border between the North and South of Ireland and the DUP won’t accept a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the U.K. meaning that it won’t get voted through parliament as the Tories don’t have a majority without the DUP.

Everyone should be behind not wanting a hard border in Ireland.

But this is where the difficulties start.

Is there going to be a trade deal? If there is then there is not a certain need for a hard border anywhere. If there is no trade deal then some sort of hard border will be needed even if just for transportation of goods. This is why I have always said that a trade deal should be decided on before the problem of what to do with Ireland is decided.

 

[Astute]

Technically no but in practice yes it would. The Tories would have a minority government so would struggle to pass anything in parliament. They would really have no other choice than to call an election unless they can find someone else to go in with them.

Yes it would be a minority government. But only just. For a vote to be lost for the Tories it would mean everyone from all parties to vote against them. Everyone would also have to turn up. Then you have the rebels that don't vote the way that they are told to.

I don't see it as a big enough problem to cause another general election just yet. But it depends on what the Tories want to push through. This makes me a bit happier on having a Tory government.

 

[dutchman]

Yes it would be a minority government. But only just. For a vote to be lost for the Tories it would mean everyone from all parties to vote against them. Everyone would also have to turn up. Then you have the rebels that don't vote the way that they are told to.

I don't see it as a big enough problem to cause another general election just yet. But it depends on what the Tories want to push through. This makes me a bit happier on having a Tory government.

But hasn't it demonstrated beyond all doubt that Theresa May is totally incapable of running even a piss-up in brewery?

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes simple, the Republic of Ireland can leave the EU superstate any time it likes.

Haha haha!

 

[Sick Boy]

The Irish border situation is something I didn't even think about and have no idea how to solve it, it'll cause problems whatever way they try to resolve it.

I would be interested to hear possible solutions though.

NI stays in the single market

 

[Sick Boy]

Sorry I did mean UK. You knew what I meant I’m sure as all the know it alls came out and corrected me in typical fury and anger as normal. Genuine apologies again.

I don’t think it doesn’t have to end in a hard border. I don’t think it will. The Uk government has said it won’t implement a hard border itself. If one is erected it would be the Irish government to do it but they said they don’t want one either.

The point being there is no appetite from ether side for it.

That's it, attempt to pass the blame and responsibility onto someone else.

The only way that's going to happen is if the UK adheres to EU regulations moving forward, which makes all of this pointless.

 

[Sick Boy]

Everyone should be behind not wanting a hard border in Ireland.

But this is where the difficulties start.

Is there going to be a trade deal? If there is then there is not a certain need for a hard border anywhere. If there is no trade deal then some sort of hard border will be needed even if just for transportation of goods. This is why I have always said that a trade deal should be decided on before the problem of what to do with Ireland is decided.

Apart from that at trade deal will be similar to the one with Canada and will be completely different to what we have now.

Even with a deal, if the UK is importing goods that are banned in Ireland, there will still need to be a border to ensure that it doesn't get in.

There's not going to be a trade deal before the border is sorted out, the Irish government are never going to agree to that.

Get used to it.

 

[Sick Boy]

There is just no way that I can see this is going to work, especially now parliament has the final say on any Brexit deal.

1. NI is given special treatment as was mooted today - DUP votes it down.
2. We refuse Ireland's demands and a hard border comes into effect and we revert to WTO tariffs - The Conservative centrists vote it down.
3. We retain access to the single market, customs union and freedom of movement - The Conservative right votes it down

The problem is made worse given that we're on a limited time frame. I personally don't see how we get anywhere without another election but the Conservatives will never call one because they're scared to death of Corbyn becoming PM

The whole thing really is a mess, it is looking like we have 2 options.

1. Leave with no deal whatsoever

2. Cancel the whole thing

Either way we are going to have an incredibly fractured society for a very, very long time.

Cheers, Dave!

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes that’s about the size of it. It’s a stalemate at the moment.

Do you mean between May and the DUP? She will be frantically trying to get them on side this week.

 

[skybluetony176]

Your second paragraph shows why I'm so disparaging of the DUP. They will never get beyond their sectarian beliefs.

Something May should have realised when she got into bed with them. Clearly she didn’t. Hence the mess we’re in.

 

[Sick Boy]

Something May should have realised when she got into bed with them. Clearly she didn’t. Hence the mess we’re in.

It looks like the reality of getting involved with them is finally beginning to dawn on her. The future of the country could well come down to whether or not the DUP agree.

 

[skybluetony176]

Everyone should be behind not wanting a hard border in Ireland.

But this is where the difficulties start.

Is there going to be a trade deal? If there is then there is not a certain need for a hard border anywhere. If there is no trade deal then some sort of hard border will be needed even if just for transportation of goods. This is why I have always said that a trade deal should be decided on before the problem of what to do with Ireland is decided.

But depending on the trade deal it could exacerbate the problem of sorting the Irish border. The border between the UK and at the EU will define any trade deal.

 

[martcov]

I made a rushed error, the way you act it was if I voted for brexit!

Hang on, you’re the same poster who is in denial about German politics and merkels situation at the moment. You deny the rise of far right and far left groups across the EU. You told every leave voter to be ashamed of themselves in what was a free democratic choice and vote. (My personal favourite) You demonstrated a clear ignorance to the bond markets earlier this thread. You can’t admit Sweden is in a really bad place because of their violent crime rate rise. The nhs and housing market and suppressed wages has nothing to do mass immigration. Oh and Greece was fucked anyway was a classic line from you.

As for the border in Ireland, there is no appetite for a hard border from anyone. It requires a special solution to a very complex country and situation. Again you seem to be wanting a hard border? I know you don’t but stop banging on about it then. No one does.

Made up facts again. Worse than Astute.

I posted what the latest on Merkel’s situation is. I also said from the start that no one wants another election and that I think she will form a coalition. I was surprised that the FDP wouldn’t play ball ( which I posted on here ).

I don’t deny the rise of the right. I pointed out that is regional in Germany. More in the East than the West. I also keep pointing out that it is still „only“ 1 in 8 who voted AfD as a whole. Others like to make out it was 1 in 6 or more.

I didn’t tell every leave voter to be ashamed of their vote. I told you as you obviously don’t have a clue what you voted for.

Sweden isn’t a really bad place. I just posted a comparison between Lobdon and Stockholm which shows it is Stockholm is no worse than London. I think the rest will be better than the UK apart from some ghetto type areas. Like to see some facts on that not just National Socialist opinions from certain sources.

The NHs has a lot to do with an ageing population, lack of funding and a lack of staff. Not purely because of migrants.

Greece was not a wealthy country before the EU. It’s tax system was weird. Every new government created new civil service jobs for its friends, some people were tax exempt- military, shipping- people retired very early and there was no large scale industrial base. They had a great run on tick in the EU until the crisis where they were left exposed. Now you like to blame the EU for everything. I say it is not so simple.

The housing market has a lot to with lack of investment in affordable housing going back years. More single households. Land banks. An ageing Population. Etc.. and more immigrants including non EU. It’s not purely because of the EU.

You take the simplest argument in all cases. A classic leaver. Not able to comprehend the various situations and saying that anyone who points out your lack of knowledge must be wrong.

I am well aware of why exchange rates fluctuate.

Despite me constantly saying that I am against border controls- I live in a country with 8 land borders. Millions cross borders every day on the continent. It would be plain stupid to reintroduce internal EU border throughout Europe on a.peemanent Basis. You voted for border control on UK external borders and accuse me of wanting a border on the island of Ireland? You are utterly bonkers.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It looks like the reality of getting involved with them is finally beginning to dawn on her. The future of the country could well come down to whether or not the DUP agree.

That reality was obvious when she got into bed with them like Tony said

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Liquid Gold]

It isn't just the Tories that are scared of Corbyn becoming PM.

Such a strange thing to post.

I take you at face value when you say you’re a labour voter and nutural on the eu but when all you take away from that post is a chance to have a dig at Corbyn when that really wasn’t the point then your motives look a bit suspect.

 

[Kingokings204]

Made up facts again. Worse than Astute.

I posted what the latest on Merkel’s situation is. I also said from the start that no one wants another election and that I think she will form a coalition. I was surprised that the FDP wouldn’t play ball ( which I posted on here ).

I don’t deny the rise of the right. I pointed out that is regional in Germany. More in the East than the West. I also keep pointing out that it is still „only“ 1 in 8 who voted AfD as a whole. Others like to make out it was 1 in 6 or more.

I didn’t tell every leave voter to be ashamed of their vote. I told you as you obviously don’t have a clue what you voted for.

Sweden isn’t a really bad place. I just posted a comparison between Lobdon and Stockholm which shows it is Stockholm is no worse than London. I think the rest will be better than the UK apart from some ghetto type areas. Like to see some facts on that not just National Socialist opinions from certain sources.

The NHs has a lot to do with an ageing population, lack of funding and a lack of staff. Not purely because of migrants.

Greece was not a wealthy country before the EU. It’s tax system was weird. Every new government created new civil service jobs for its friends, some people were tax exempt- military, shipping- people retired very early and there was no large scale industrial base. They had a great run on tick in the EU until the crisis where they were left exposed. Now you like to blame the EU for everything. I say it is not so simple.

The housing market has a lot to with lack of investment in affordable housing going back years. More single households. Land banks. An ageing Population. Etc.. and more immigrants including non EU. It’s not purely because of the EU.

You take the simplest argument in all cases. A classic leaver. Not able to comprehend the various situations and saying that anyone who points out your lack of knowledge must be wrong.

I am well aware of why exchange rates fluctuate.

Despite me constantly saying that I am against border controls- I live in a country with 8 land borders. Millions cross borders every day on the continent. It would be plain stupid to reintroduce internal EU border throughout Europe on a.peemanent Basis. You voted for border control on UK external borders and accuse me of wanting a border on the island of Ireland? You are utterly bonkers.

Sorry it’s utter denial, you can’t comprehend why you lost and are looking and scraping for anything other than your own fault just like Most the remainers I know. It had to be Russian medling or it’s not knowing what we voted for. Or we are thick and stupid as I’ve been called on here. I should be ashamed remember. (My favourite) It couldn’t possibly be you were on the wrong side of the argument and literally can’t accept it.

Denial in the dictionary means “a physiological process by which painful truths are not admitted into an individuals consciousness”

That perfectly describes you. Brilliant.

 

[mrtrench]

Agree with most of this, however:

he NHs has a lot to do with an ageing population, lack of funding and a lack of staff. Not purely because of migrants. Agree, but increasing the population is also having an effect.

Greece was not a wealthy country before the EU. It’s tax system was weird. Every new government created new civil service jobs for its friends, some people were tax exempt- military, shipping- people retired very early and there was no large scale industrial base. They had a great run on tick in the EU until the crisis where they were left exposed. Now you like to blame the EU for everything. I say it is not so simple. True, but he EU has made it much much worse as they cannot deflate their currency to remain competitive.

The housing market has a lot to with lack of investment in affordable housing going back years. More single households. Land banks. An ageing Population. Etc.. and more immigrants including non EU. It’s not purely because of the EU. Also true, but increased population is a major factor, possibly the biggest factor and I doubt we'd be at crisis point without it. Ageing population isn't an issue per se - stamp duty is. I'd abolish stamp duty.

 

[Astute]

But hasn't it demonstrated beyond all doubt that Theresa May is totally incapable of running even a piss-up in brewery?

And beyond doubt I have questioned her from the start.

 

[Captain Dart]

If the DUP pull out of their arraignment with the government does that mean a general election?

They won't do that, this is a bit of hard line posturing to curry favour with DUP supporters. Remember Foster has her own issues to face, the Ash for cash scandal hasn't gone away.

It will all be solved by the end of next week.