The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (80 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

I know we have some very different views on this thread but even by the low standards we hold politicians to this is shocking. The biggest thing to happen in a generation if not longer and we are literally making it up as we go along.

That is an outright disgrace. This chancer should not be leading our negotiations. Ffs.

 

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[lifeskyblue]

I know we have some very different views on this thread but even by the low standards we hold politicians to this is shocking. The biggest thing to happen in a generation if not longer and we are literally making it up as we go along.

We knew this during the referendum campaign; neither side had a clue what they were talking about, neither had a plan (Remain should they lose, Leave should they win). It was all lies, creating fear and misinformation.
Since the result it is clear the negotiators have no plan (no plan at all let alone a Plan B,C or D) and are lurching from one crisis to the next just ‘hoping’ it will turn out for the best.
Cameron should be called to account for holding the referendum when his government had not given any thought to the possible outcome.


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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

That's shocking if true. It doesn't matter if you're a remainer or leaver, stuff like this needs to be done for the good of us all. Heads need to be on the chopping block and I'm not talking metaphorically. They're screwing us all over.

Agree with both posts there.

Everyone is going to suffer like this.

 

[chiefdave]

As to your response on the dental study, it's about as much of a 'shove my fingers in my ears' response as the Swedish Government gave when they said Bernt Herlitz's comments were 'hateful'. In actual fact, what he has reported has turned out to be completely true. My point therefore still stands, reporting facts is now considered hate if they are not agreed with. Do you see how dangerous that is?

If you're also distancing Bernt Herlitz's findings to those of the NBFM then basically what you are saying is that there were two studies, and they both had the same findings? Funny that. Yes, there may be a swing of a few years, so those that tested as 15, could also be 18. It really is clutching at straws from you... Maybe it isn't 82% of migrants there that are not children, maybe it is 78%, or even 87%. The end result is that this is clearly an issue.

Have you actually read what you're referring to with the NBFM and Herlitz. In both instances they were only looking at people suspected of being adults who were claiming free dental treatment as children. Given they were already suspected a result of 100% wouldn't be out of the question but in no way can you jump from the results to proclaiming that 78%, 82%, 87% or any other percentage of migrants are not children. The two things aren't related.

Your approach, not for the first time, is anyone that doesn't fit in with your stance is making things up and part of some huge conspiracy. Those that do agree with you, no matter how 'dodgy' are accurate. Its confirmation bias at its finest.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

We knew this during the referendum campaign; neither side had a clue what they were talking about, neither had a plan (Remain should they lose, Leave should they win). It was all lies, creating fear and misinformation.
Since the result it is clear the negotiators have no plan (no plan at all let alone a Plan B,C or D) and are lurching from one crisis to the next just ‘hoping’ it will turn out for the best.
Cameron should be called to account for holding the referendum when his government had not given any thought to the possible outcome.


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I think they had given thought to the outcome. It was remain or die. Hence the project fear. There was no way they thought they would lose. That isn't having a pop at anyone by the way, the remain campaign just alienated more people than it won over.

I've said it all along, had they played it maturely and offered here's the good bits, and here's the bad bits about the EU openly, people would have made a more rational decision. They wouldn't have felt bullied, and they wouldn't have felt as if the flaws of the EU were being covered up from them.

I was totally on the fence even 'til the day of the vote, but I will hold my hands up and say that my vote may have been different had I not found myself treated like shit for even daring to argue both sides from the middle. Just for trying to make my own judgement, that was classed as wrong. I think for that exact reason many people like me voted the other way. Nothing about the EU felt right at that time.

That's not to say the leave campaign was good, it wasn't. I think this is one way you can actually compare this to the American election. If it was anyone on the other side instead of Hillary, he probably wouldn't have won.

 

[chiefdave]

We knew this during the referendum campaign; neither side had a clue what they were talking about, neither had a plan (Remain should they lose, Leave should they win). It was all lies, creating fear and misinformation.
Since the result it is clear the negotiators have no plan (no plan at all let alone a Plan B,C or D) and are lurching from one crisis to the next just ‘hoping’ it will turn out for the best.
Cameron should be called to account for holding the referendum when his government had not given any thought to the possible outcome.

In a way you can justify remain not having a plan as their whole campaign was based around everything staying the same. There was virtually no mention of remain and reform or acknowledgement that the EU needed to change. That's what lost them my vote.

Leave on the other hand knew that a win would mean huge changes. The warning signs were there the morning after the vote when the most prominent campaigners couldn't distance themselves from the campaign fast enough. Followed by Cameron doing exactly what he'd promised not to do and resigning.

Where we go from here I don't know. The clock is ticking and surely even the most passionate of the leave supporters will concede we can't do this on the fly.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Have you actually read what you're referring to with the NBFM and Herlitz. In both instances they were only looking at people suspected of being adults who were claiming free dental treatment as children. Given they were already suspected a result of 100% wouldn't be out of the question but in no way can you jump from the results to proclaiming that 78%, 82%, 87% or any other percentage of migrants are not children. The two things aren't related.

Your approach, not for the first time, is anyone that doesn't fit in with your stance is making things up and part of some huge conspiracy. Those that do agree with you, no matter how 'dodgy' are accurate. Its confirmation bias at its finest.

That's a really weak response, even for your standards.

I guess it is a success that only 82% of migrants turned out to be adults instead of 100%. It fits in with your denial really well.

Your approach, not for the first time, is bizarre. You try and make it out that what I am saying is wrong, but then admit a large amount of migrants checked were in fact adults. It would be a lot more simple for you to just admit it straight away rather than play games, that way we could actually discuss how to fix the issue (unlike the Swedish government), instead of me having to put you on the ropes again...

 

[chiefdave]

I guess it is a success that only 82% of migrants turned out to be adults instead of 100%. It fits in with your denial really well.

82% of migrants did not turn out to be adults, that's a totally false statement.

4,200 people who the Swedish Migration Agency already suspected were adults are subject to medical age assessments (an assessment that is far from accurate in the first place). Of those 581 have been completed:
442 were categorised as “suggests that the person examined is 18 years old or older”
134 were categorised as “possibly suggests that the person examined is below 18 years old”
5 were categorised as “possibly suggests that the person examined is 18 years old or older”

The key fact you're missing is that for that same time period there were 35,000 unaccompanied migrant children so even if you think the test is 100% accurate then the number falsely claiming to be children is 1.3%

 

[Marty]

I think they had given thought to the outcome. It was remain or die. Hence the project fear. There was no way they thought they would lose. That isn't having a pop at anyone by the way, the remain campaign just alienated more people than it won over.

I've said it all along, had they played it maturely and offered here's the good bits, and here's the bad bits about the EU openly, people would have made a more rational decision. They wouldn't have felt bullied, and they wouldn't have felt as if the flaws of the EU were being covered up from them.

I was totally on the fence even 'til the day of the vote, but I will hold my hands up and say that my vote may have been different had I not found myself treated like shit for even daring to argue both sides from the middle. Just for trying to make my own judgement, that was classed as wrong. I think for that exact reason many people like me voted the other way. Nothing about the EU felt right at that time.

That's not to say the leave campaign was good, it wasn't. I think this is one way you can actually compare this to the American election. If it was anyone on the other side instead of Hillary, he probably wouldn't have won.

I'm very centre politically but I was on the Leave vote from the start, I'm not sure I would have even changed my mind with a strong campaign from remain, but I know plenty of others who may have. I wrote a massive post around the time of the referendum as to the reasons, I've alluded to one of these only a day or two ago.

The EU has good and bad aspects, but I feel the bad outweigh the good. I feel that the EU should be a 2 tier system, with 2 currencies, It should have allowed free trade between us all, but things like currencies and FOM, could only be shared where living standards and wages are similar. So you would have the likes of Germany, UK, France, etc in one zone and then the poorer countries in the other zone, the likes of Greece can't even devalue.

 

[clint van damme]

Its rapidly gone from we've done the reports but nobody is allowed to see them, to we've done them but a lot of vital information is missing (when parliament said they had to be released), to we've not done them at all. How can they get away with that?

if they don't exist then he should be sacked for not revealing so prior to the vote on them being released. A waste of time and money.
Anyone defending this clown shoe really needs a word with themselves.

 

[martcov]

I'm very centre politically but I was on the Leave vote from the start, I'm not sure I would have even changed my mind with a strong campaign from remain, but I know plenty of others who may have. I wrote a massive post around the time of the referendum as to the reasons, I've alluded to one of these only a day or two ago.

The EU has good and bad aspects, but I feel the bad outweigh the good. I feel that the EU should be a 2 tier system, with 2 currencies, It should have allowed free trade between us all, but things like currencies and FOM, could only be shared where living standards and wages are similar. So you would have the likes of Germany, UK, France, etc in one zone and then the poorer countries in the other zone, the likes of Greece can't even devalue.

Germany opted out of FOM for Romanians and Bulgarians for the first 5 years of their membership to avoid the mad rush and allow a bit of catch up. We didn’t. I don’t get that. Why?

 

[martcov]

if they don't exist then he should be sacked for not revealing so prior to the vote on them being released. A waste of time and money.
Anyone defending this clown shoe really needs a word with themselves.

We can argue on here with the limited information that we have and no one suffers, but to find out that our own government is carrying out the biggest economic change in post war history with around the same amount of information or planning knowledge is a disaster.

 

[martcov]

That's a really weak response, even for your standards.

I guess it is a success that only 82% of migrants turned out to be adults instead of 100%. It fits in with your denial really well.

Your approach, not for the first time, is bizarre. You try and make it out that what I am saying is wrong, but then admit a large amount of migrants checked were in fact adults. It would be a lot more simple for you to just admit it straight away rather than play games, that way we could actually discuss how to fix the issue (unlike the Swedish government), instead of me having to put you on the ropes again...

You aren’t putting anyone on the ropes. You are showing how right wing sites with an agenda have turned the facts around by omitting certain factors. As CD says you are actually talking about possibly 1,3% blagging it. But you are totally wound up by it.

You should really fact check these sites you quote. I am not denying that are bad people or ungrateful bastards amongst the refugees, but I am always suspicious when people only list refugee crimes and they often turn out not to be what they have been said to be. These sites will not list any of the over 400 attacks on refugees in the last quarter in Germany. Why?

Right wing violence is increasing as the AfD amongst others such as Pegida has legitimised it for some. Hence...“they are only taking things into their own hands“ „understandably“ „it is not as bad as gang rape“ etc..

The same tactic is used on the press „Lügenpresse“ was the Goebbels Slogan when building up the Nazis before they came to power. „Lying press“ is now „fake news“. Discredit the people who are holding you to account. Goes for Bannon, Trump, Roy Moore at the moment, and so on. In Putin’s Russia the journalists get murdered... even more effective.

 

[dutchman]

The many times David Davis talked about Brexit analysis he says doesn’t exist

 

[Marty]

Germany opted out of FOM for Romanians and Bulgarians for the first 5 years of their membership to avoid the mad rush and allow a bit of catch up. We didn’t. I don’t get that. Why?

Both Romania and Bulgaria joined in 2007, 15 countries had restrictions, 7 countries lifted restrictions early, some in 2009 and others in 2011, 8 maintained restrictions for the maximum of 7 years, including both Germany and the UK.

 

[Sick Boy]

Both Romania and Bulgaria joined in 2007, 15 countries had restrictions, 7 countries lifted restrictions early, some in 2009 and others in 2011, 8 maintained restrictions for the maximum of 7 years, including both Germany and the UK.

We didn't when Poland joined.

 

[Sick Boy]

The many times David Davis talked about Brexit analysis he says doesn’t exist

No idea how he can keep his job.

 

[martcov]

Both Romania and Bulgaria joined in 2007, 15 countries had restrictions, 7 countries lifted restrictions early, some in 2009 and others in 2011, 8 maintained restrictions for the maximum of 7 years, including both Germany and the UK.

Maybe we should have put pressure on to extend that. Did we or was it not possible?

 

[clint van damme]

The many times David Davis talked about Brexit analysis he says doesn’t exist

this is the man in charge of us leaving the EU. holy fuck!!

 

[CCFCSteve]

In a way you can justify remain not having a plan as their whole campaign was based around everything staying the same. There was virtually no mention of remain and reform or acknowledgement that the EU needed to change. That's what lost them my vote.

Leave on the other hand knew that a win would mean huge changes. The warning signs were there the morning after the vote when the most prominent campaigners couldn't distance themselves from the campaign fast enough. Followed by Cameron doing exactly what he'd promised not to do and resigning.

Where we go from here I don't know. The clock is ticking and surely even the most passionate of the leave supporters will concede we can't do this on the fly.

A crazy situation and Cameron and Osborne (who I voted for) have got to take responsibility for this. It's disgraceful no planning was undertaken in advance of the vote (ie what we would want, what the major hurdles/issues would be and how we would try to address these). Typical arrogance of a majority of the political class that the public would fall in line....but they didn't.

People talking about Davis getting impact assessments done are missing the point, what's done is done. It's now about negotiating as good a deal as possible.

Like most economic analysis it's all guesswork anyway. There are so many variables it's bordering on impossible to estimate the impact of leaving the EU...especially before any trade discussions have taken place (or staying in for that matter - ie has anyone produced a study/assessment on what would happen if net migration stayed at £250k-300k for the next 5 to 10 years ? Did anyone produce impact assessments when we agreed treaty after treaty ?

 

[clint van damme]

A crazy situation and Cameron and Osborne (who I voted for) have got to take responsibility for this. It's disgraceful no planning was undertaken in advance of the vote (ie what we would want, what the major hurdles/issues would be and how we would try to address these). Typical arrogance of a majority of the political class that the public would fall in line....but they didn't.

People talking about Davis getting impact assessments done are missing the point, what's done is done. It's now about negotiating as good a deal as possible.

Like most economic analysis it's all guesswork anyway. There are so many variables it's bordering on impossible to estimate the impact of leaving the EU...especially before any trade discussions have taken place (or staying in for that matter - ie has anyone produced a study/assessment on what would happen if net migration stayed at £250k-300k for the next 5 to 10 years ? Did anyone produce impact assessments when we agreed treaty after treaty ?

you're missing the point, quite spectacularly, he misled parliament. Whether the assessments would have been accurate or not is irrelevant, he lied about their existence and let his fellow MPs waste time which we pay them for conducting an unnecessary vote.
What's done is done doesn't cut it. He needs sacking.

 

[dutchman]

People talking about Davis getting impact assessments done are missing the point, what's done is done. It's now about negotiating as good a deal as possible.

I think you're missing the point that Davis told Parliament they existed when they didn't, or that they didn't when they did, whichever you choose to believe.

Edit: sorry, didn't see Clint's post above this one before I posted.

 

[Marty]

We didn't when Poland joined.

Bloody Poles coming over here, stealing our jobs.

 

[Marty]

Maybe we should have put pressure on to extend that. Did we or was it not possible?

It's not possible, it's a max of 7 years then you have no choice in the matter.

 

[Grendel]

And you, the one who feels offended when people mention similarities to Nazis... now insulting people who are trying to politely put their ideas forward. If you know so much about the rise of Nazism, you will know that the Nazis insulted and intimidated people who didn’t agree with them. Earlsdon was playing the victim recently claiming people were insulting people with similar views to him. Once again it is the people on the right throwing insults about.

The person most obsessed with far right extremism and nazis is you.

You remind me of that old politician Harvey Proctor. He was rabidly anti homosexual. Sadly a journalist investigation showed he had a strange nocturnal interest in taking rent boys to his apartment and whipping them. Spanking Harvey was never the same again.

I wonder if we peaked in your cellar what we might find? Pair of jackboots? Silly fake Chaplin moustache. People who are so obsessively anti something are often well caught with their trousers down one day - if you know what I mean.

 

[Sick Boy]

The person most obsessed with far right extremism and nazis is you.

You remind me of that old politician Harvey Proctor. He was rabidly anti homosexual. Sadly a journalist investigation showed he had a strange nocturnal interest in taking rent boys to his apartment and whipping them. Spanking Harvey was never the same again.

I wonder if we peaked in your cellar what we might find? Pair of jackboots? Silly fake Chaplin moustache. People who are so obsessively anti something are often well caught with their trousers down one day - if you know what I mean.

When is the German car industy going to directly get involved in these negotiations then? I presume the UK is also keep its trump card up its sleeve to strike the killer blow and get whatever it wants?

Nice work in diverting away from those posting far-right material and turning it around onto a moderate, BTW.

 

[Grendel]

When is the German car industy going to directly get involved in these negotiations then? I presume the UK is also keep its trump card up its sleeve to strike the killer blow and get whatever it wants?

Nice work in diverting away from those posting far-right material and turning it around onto a moderate, BTW.

The German car industry already is involved as is For due to its Belgium manufacturing operation

What you seem to be missing is that the trade deal will be relative for both sides. So if we end with with tariffs so do the European countries - all studies conclude the impact on jobs will be worse in Europe if it’s not a free trade arrangement. Which would prove once and for all the EU is not interested in it’s members and proves we are correct to get out.

As for Martcov he hates freedom of choice, loathes democracy and is anti civil liberties.

He’s further to the right than Farage.

 

[Sick Boy]

The German car industry already is involved as is For due to its Belgium manufacturing operation

What you seem to be missing is that the trade deal will be relative for both sides. So if we end with with tariffs so do the European countries - all studies conclude the impact on jobs will be worse in Europe if it’s not a free trade arrangement. Which would prove once and for all the EU is not interested in it’s members and proves we are correct to get out.

As for Martcov he hates freedom of choice, loathes democracy and is anti civil liberties.

He’s further to the right than Farage.

So you're interested in studies now and not dismissing them as some sort of project fear? Your second point is ridiculous and you know it.

 

[skybluetony176]

The person most obsessed with far right extremism and nazis is you.

You remind me of that old politician Harvey Proctor. He was rabidly anti homosexual. Sadly a journalist investigation showed he had a strange nocturnal interest in taking rent boys to his apartment and whipping them. Spanking Harvey was never the same again.

I wonder if we peaked in your cellar what we might find? Pair of jackboots? Silly fake Chaplin moustache. People who are so obsessively anti something are often well caught with their trousers down one day - if you know what I mean.

Presumably you have Ann Lucas locked up in your basement then.

 

[skybluetony176]

The German car industry already is involved as is For due to its Belgium manufacturing operation

What you seem to be missing is that the trade deal will be relative for both sides. So if we end with with tariffs so do the European countries - all studies conclude the impact on jobs will be worse in Europe if it’s not a free trade arrangement. Which would prove once and for all the EU is not interested in it’s members and proves we are correct to get out.

As for Martcov he hates freedom of choice, loathes democracy and is anti civil liberties.

He’s further to the right than Farage.

All studies? Haven’t you heard. We haven’t done any.

 

[CCFCSteve]

you're missing the point, quite spectacularly, he misled parliament. Whether the assessments would have been accurate or not is irrelevant, he lied about their existence and let his fellow MPs waste time which we pay them for conducting an unnecessary vote.
What's done is done doesn't cut it. He needs sacking.

I'm not missing the point as I wasn't making one about whether Davis is competent or should keep his job. My point was regarding the lack of use of any assessments now and the fact that if they were going to be produced this should've been in advance of the referendum vote so the public had further information (However unreliable/inaccurate the assessments might have been they probably wouldnt have been any worse than the threat of immediate recession and 500k job losses which appeared to have no actual basis)

Let's be honest all we heard during the debate was unsubstantiated bullshit from both sides

 

[martcov]

The German car industry already is involved as is For due to its Belgium manufacturing operation

What you seem to be missing is that the trade deal will be relative for both sides. So if we end with with tariffs so do the European countries - all studies conclude the impact on jobs will be worse in Europe if it’s not a free trade arrangement. Which would prove once and for all the EU is not interested in it’s members and proves we are correct to get out.

As for Martcov he hates freedom of choice, loathes democracy and is anti civil liberties.

He’s further to the right than Farage.

What on earth are you on? I dared to point out lies and omission of important factors by right wing National Socialist web sites to push their agenda. Yes, I don’t like Nazis or people pushing similar anti democratic agendas. Your dumbfuck logic twists that to therefore I am a secret Nazi and don’t like democracy.

The German car industry will move it’s part producers and target new markets such as Poland.

If it was me, I would see the UK as a declining market at least short term.

 

[martcov]

The German car industry already is involved as is For due to its Belgium manufacturing operation

What you seem to be missing is that the trade deal will be relative for both sides. So if we end with with tariffs so do the European countries - all studies conclude the impact on jobs will be worse in Europe if it’s not a free trade arrangement. Which would prove once and for all the EU is not interested in it’s members and proves we are correct to get out.

As for Martcov he hates freedom of choice, loathes democracy and is anti civil liberties.

He’s further to the right than Farage.

I see you got a like from KoK. Obviously liked the bit of me being more right than Farage. Or the bit about spanking and whipping young rent boys. Sorry I am not more right wing than Farage and I know nothing about rent boys. @KoK: Grendel seems to remember more details than I do, PM him for contact to rent boys.

 

[dancers lance]

What on earth are you on? I dared to point out lies and omission of important factors by right wing National Socialist web sites to push their agenda. Yes, I don’t like Nazis or people pushing similar anti democratic agendas. Your dumbfuck logic twists that to therefore I am a secret Nazi and don’t like democracy.

The German car industry will move it’s part producers and target new markets such as Poland.

If it was me, I would see the UK as a declining market at least short term.

The irony of this being that quite a few of these "German Car Companies" wouldn't even exist without the actual Nazi regime, but it was a while back, doesn't seem to count anymore.
Just one of many....In an historical investigation commissioned by the company — the last German auto company to do so, preceded by Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW — found that when Audi was operating under the name Auto Union, it struck a deal with the SS, by which more than 3,700 inmates from Nazi concentration camps were put to work for the company.

 

[martcov]

The irony of this being that quite a few of these "German Car Companies" wouldn't even exist without the actual Nazi regime, but it was a while back, doesn't seem to count anymore.
Just one of many....In an historical investigation commissioned by the company — the last German auto company to do so, preceded by Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW — found that when Audi was operating under the name Auto Union, it struck a deal with the SS, by which more than 3,700 inmates from Nazi concentration camps were put to work for the company.

The Germanworkers at VW were paid in part with credits for a car. That was their carrot. But in the end production was switched to wartime vehicles and the workers lost out.

I am sure there are other stories about forced labour during the war.