The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (89 Viewers)

[Kingokings204]

Individual ministers introducing or amending legislation or acts of parliament is a very slippery slope. Extreme and far fetched example but imagine if a minister with a liking for juveniles decided to lower the age of consent without consulting Parliament?
More realistic, plenty on here hate McDonnell, Abbott etc. Imagine if they were in government and attempted to by pass Parliament trying to get through some legislation? There would, quite rightly be uproar.

Of course there will be some who think this is a stepping stone to halting Breixt, but like you, they are missing the bigger picture quite spectacularly.

I feel your views are quite naive. Lord Adonis isn’t alone and he with all due respect has more of a say than you will ever have. Many remain mps voted the other way just for the record. Are they wrong? Like you say some want to halt brexit and want to frustrate the process as much as possible for their own gains. Sad but predictable.

 

---

[Kingokings204]

And as was shown last night, some Labour Mps would vote for the right deal.

What's Ken Clarke's self interest then? He's hardly going to advance himself.

Ken Clarke is a euro fanatic like Mart. He is so deluded it’s embarrassing. He wants a United States of Europe and wants nothing to stop it. Again like Mart.

 

[Kingokings204]

Like what? Would this be along the lines of people bearing arms comment that Farage made?

No, at the ballot box

 

[clint van damme]

I feel your views are quite naive. Lord Adonis isn’t alone and he with all due respect has more of a say than you will ever have. Many remain mps voted the other way just for the record. Are they wrong? Like you say some want to halt brexit and want to frustrate the process as much as possible for their own gains. Sad but predictable.

you are happy for parliamentary sovereignty to be undermined then?
You are happy for a proven liar to introduce legislation without it having parliamentary scrutiny? Because this is what you are saying in a roundabout way, I just want you to confirm because I find it staggering.

 

[clint van damme]

Ken Clarke is a euro fanatic like Mart. He is so deluded it’s embarrassing. He wants a United States of Europe and wants nothing to stop it. Again like Mart.

what do you want, because it's not democracy.

 

[Grendel]

And as was shown last night, some Labour Mps would vote for the right deal.

What's Ken Clarke's self interest then? He's hardly going to advance himself.

Clarke has an obsession with the EU only paralleled by Ted Heath

 

[Kingokings204]

you are happy for parliamentary sovereignty to be undermined then?
You are happy for a proven liar to introduce legislation without it having parliamentary scrutiny? Because this is what you are saying in a roundabout way, I just want you to confirm because I find it staggering.

No thats wrong. I’m saying I accept last nights result. It’s clear that people in higher places than you want to stop brexit and brag about the result to undermine a democratic referendum on Twitter of all places. He is a Lord in the House of Lords. I find that staggering personally.

 

[Kingokings204]

Clarke has an obsession with the EU only paralleled by Ted Heath

The deluded fool still wants the euro tomorrow if we could. It’s embarrassing.

 

[Kingokings204]

what do you want, because it's not democracy.

Might what to send that post to Lord Adonis if I were you.

 

[skybluetony176]

what do you want, because it's not democracy.

Totalitarianism by the sounds of it.

 

[Sick Boy]

No, at the ballot box

Voting in Labour?

 

[clint van damme]

No thats wrong. I’m saying I accept last nights result. It’s clear that people in higher places than you want to stop brexit and brag about the result to undermine a democratic referendum on Twitter of all places. He is a Lord in the House of Lords. I find that staggering personally.

That's a separate issue. last night was all about the time honoured tradition of Parliamentary sovereignty and the result was the right one.
People using it for their own agenda is a separate issue. In the same way that pro EU Boris used the Brexit campaign for his own ends it doesn't mean everyone involved in the campaign had an ulterior motive.

 

[skybluetony176]

Might what to send that post to Lord Adonis if I were you.

He’s a Baron, not a Lord.

 

[Kingokings204]

He’s a Baron, not a Lord.

Ok send it to Baron Adonis.

 

[Kingokings204]

That's a separate issue. last night was all about the time honoured tradition of Parliamentary sovereignty and the result was the right one.
People using it for their own agenda is a separate issue. In the same way that pro EU Boris used the Brexit campaign for his own ends it doesn't mean everyone involved in the campaign had an ulterior motive.

I agree. And I accept the vote. It’s fine by me but I am pointing out many people higher than us clearly see last night as a victory and brag on Twitter.

Like you say it’s parliamentary sovereignty and that’s a good thing imo.

 

[Kingokings204]

Voting in Labour?

Yes perhaps. Or someone completely unheard of like ukip were. Ukip got 4m votes in 2015 GE. That’s incredible for a fringe party.

UKIPs best days could be ahead if brexit doesn’t happen or reversed.

Labour is a interesting one actually because two Labour mps were very scathing last night and voted with the government. A lot of Labour voted brexit. That’s a lot of votes. Can they win them over do you think? What’s your view?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yes perhaps. Or someone completely unheard of like ukip were. Ukip got 4m votes in 2015 GE. That’s incredible for a fringe party.

UKIPs best days could be ahead if brexit doesn’t happen or reversed.

Labour is a interesting one actually because two Labour mps were very scathing last night and voted with the government. A lot of Labour voted brexit. That’s a lot of votes. Can they win them over do you think? What’s your view?

UKIP's best days are already behind them.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[martcov]

Well that’s bollocks isn’t it? He raped and pillaged the polish workers pension scheme didn’t he?

Tusk also supports the Hungarian regime - sometimes I’m sure you are on the wind up.

Doesn’t effect what I said. Polish government in trouble with the EU for trying to do away with democratic norms. Hungary will use veto to protect them.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Clarke has an obsession with the EU only paralleled by Ted Heath

So basically he did what he thought was right... which is what he's elected to do.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes perhaps. Or someone completely unheard of like ukip were. Ukip got 4m votes in 2015 GE. That’s incredible for a fringe party.

UKIPs best days could be ahead if brexit doesn’t happen or reversed.

Labour is a interesting one actually because two Labour mps were very scathing last night and voted with the government. A lot of Labour voted brexit. That’s a lot of votes. Can they win them over do you think? What’s your view?

I will reply to you tomorrow. I'm celebrating my birthday/SISU's 10th anniversary.

 

[Grendel]

So basically he did what he thought was right... which is what he's elected to do.

He’s elected to serve his constituents not promote ideological self interest.

 

[Grendel]

Doesn’t effect what I said. Polish government in trouble with the EU for trying to do away with democratic norms. Hungary will use veto to protect them.

So you support tusks treatment of the polish and the removal of their pension rights?

 

[martcov]

So you support tusks treatment of the polish and the removal of their pension rights?

Try reading. I said being reviled by the present Polish government is a plus. Whatever else may be going on.

 

[Grendel]

Try reading. I said being reviled by the present Polish government is a plus. Whatever else may be going on.

So do you agree with his treatment of polish pension schemes?

 

[martcov]

So do you agree with his treatment of polish pension schemes?

Quote me where I agree with anything he says or does.

 

[skybluetony176]

Watching question time it seems that people who voted for the sovereignty of the British Parliament by voting leave are angry about the sovereignty of the British Parliament being upheld last night.

Seems to me a lot of people have let themselves lose sight of what they voted for.

 

[martcov]

Watching question time it seems that people who voted for the sovereignty of the British Parliament by voting leave are angry about the sovereignty of the British Parliament being upheld last night.

Seems to me a lot of people have let themselves lose sight of what they voted for.

The death threats are flowing in for the ‚traitors“. As Grieve has reported. Some people think parliamentary democracy ended with the referendum. I am glad for every „democratic check“ along the Brexit path.

 

[Astute]

UKIP's best days are already behind them.

The idea of Ukip was to get us out of the EU. So now there is nothing left for them other than the racist vote.

But what will happen if we get a hard Brexit or we end up staying in?

Many Labour voters will only ever vote Labour. Many Tory voters will only ever vote Tory. Many Labour voters would never vote Tory whatever. Many Tory voters would never vote Labour whatever. You then have millions of floating voters. Labour and Tories are in a mess over Brexit.

So where are these votes going to go?

 

[Astute]

you are happy for parliamentary sovereignty to be undermined then?
You are happy for a proven liar to introduce legislation without it having parliamentary scrutiny? Because this is what you are saying in a roundabout way, I just want you to confirm because I find it staggering.

Some of you are so Pro EU that you either don't read properly what people are saying or you want to twist what is said.

If you look back I said there is good and bad with the vote that took place.

The good is that nothing can get pushed through if the vote means anything. There is plenty of time for it to get overruled though.

The bad is that if any deal that is come to gets turned down without there being a better offer we would end up with a hard Brexit. Yet some seem to think it is worth it.

But what is hard Brexit?

A hard border in Ireland?

WTO rules for sure.

Loss of rights of migrants to stay here?

Loss of rights of people from the UK to live in the EU?

These are just a few of the points. It could end up being a total mess. And all because of egos and seeing a way to showcase some MP's 'talents'.

Once it was decided that we were leaving all MP's should have united and gone for what is best for the UK. But we have ended up with a leader that wanted to stay in leading the leave. Then we have a leader that always wanted to leave using it to point score against his rival. He has put his principles to one side to try and gain votes in the future. But is a short term gain worth long term pain?

It has been a farce from the start. All the knowledge that we had before the vote was which lies were the most believable. And out of the ones you believed which ones did you fear the most.

If Juncker hadn't made his comment about Cameron lying about having talks we wouldn't have got the Brexit vote. If Cameron wasn't desperate for votes in the previous election he wouldn't have offered the vote. If he had given proper information instead of using scare tactics I think we would have voyed remain. That bloke has a lot to answer for.

The whole thing has become a joke.

So we now have Tory MP's voting with Labour and Labour MP's voting with the Tories. Normally I would be happy with this. But all it has done is caused a bigger mess.

And just like with the Brexit vote most people can't seem to look at the bigger picture. Those who want out refuse to look at the bad points of leaving. Those who want to stay in refuse to look at the bad points of staying.

And those who were unsure are even more clueless now.

 

[clint van damme]

Some of you are so Pro EU that you either don't read properly what people are saying or you want to twist what is said.

If you look back I said there is good and bad with the vote that took place.

The good is that nothing can get pushed through if the vote means anything. There is plenty of time for it to get overruled though.

The bad is that if any deal that is come to gets turned down without there being a better offer we would end up with a hard Brexit. Yet some seem to think it is worth it.

But what is hard Brexit?

A hard border in Ireland?

WTO rules for sure.

Loss of rights of migrants to stay here?

Loss of rights of people from the UK to live in the EU?

These are just a few of the points. It could end up being a total mess. And all because of egos and seeing a way to showcase some MP's 'talents'.

Once it was decided that we were leaving all MP's should have united and gone for what is best for the UK. But we have ended up with a leader that wanted to stay in leading the leave. Then we have a leader that always wanted to leave using it to point score against his rival. He has put his principles to one side to try and gain votes in the future. But is a short term gain worth long term pain?

It has been a farce from the start. All the knowledge that we had before the vote was which lies were the most believable. And out of the ones you believed which ones did you fear the most.

If Juncker hadn't made his comment about Cameron lying about having talks we wouldn't have got the Brexit vote. If Cameron wasn't desperate for votes in the previous election he wouldn't have offered the vote. If he had given proper information instead of using scare tactics I think we would have voyed remain. That bloke has a lot to answer for.

The whole thing has become a joke.

So we now have Tory MP's voting with Labour and Labour MP's voting with the Tories. Normally I would be happy with this. But all it has done is caused a bigger mess.

And just like with the Brexit vote most people can't seem to look at the bigger picture. Those who want out refuse to look at the bad points of leaving. Those who want to stay in refuse to look at the bad points of staying.

And those who were unsure are even more clueless now.

This isn't about Brexit, it's about parliamentary sovereignty. I would feel the same if a minister of any party had tried to pull this stunt over any issue. I can't believe you can't see it.

 

[Sick Boy]

This isn't about Brexit, it's about parliamentary sovereignty. I would feel the same if a minister of any party had tried to pull this stunt over any issue. I can't believe you can't see it.

Some are so blinded by their hatred.

 

[martcov]

Some of you are so Pro EU that you either don't read properly what people are saying or you want to twist what is said.

If you look back I said there is good and bad with the vote that took place.

The good is that nothing can get pushed through if the vote means anything. There is plenty of time for it to get overruled though.

The bad is that if any deal that is come to gets turned down without there being a better offer we would end up with a hard Brexit. Yet some seem to think it is worth it.

But what is hard Brexit?

A hard border in Ireland?

WTO rules for sure.

Loss of rights of migrants to stay here?

Loss of rights of people from the UK to live in the EU?

These are just a few of the points. It could end up being a total mess. And all because of egos and seeing a way to showcase some MP's 'talents'.

Once it was decided that we were leaving all MP's should have united and gone for what is best for the UK. But we have ended up with a leader that wanted to stay in leading the leave. Then we have a leader that always wanted to leave using it to point score against his rival. He has put his principles to one side to try and gain votes in the future. But is a short term gain worth long term pain?

It has been a farce from the start. All the knowledge that we had before the vote was which lies were the most believable. And out of the ones you believed which ones did you fear the most.

If Juncker hadn't made his comment about Cameron lying about having talks we wouldn't have got the Brexit vote. If Cameron wasn't desperate for votes in the previous election he wouldn't have offered the vote. If he had given proper information instead of using scare tactics I think we would have voyed remain. That bloke has a lot to answer for.

The whole thing has become a joke.

So we now have Tory MP's voting with Labour and Labour MP's voting with the Tories. Normally I would be happy with this. But all it has done is caused a bigger mess.

And just like with the Brexit vote most people can't seem to look at the bigger picture. Those who want out refuse to look at the bad points of leaving. Those who want to stay in refuse to look at the bad points of staying.

And those who were unsure are even more clueless now.

The bigger picture is the rule of law coming from parliament. An advisory referendum did not give a blank cheque. The vote will probably be respected, but parliament remains sovereign. To try and ignore that sovereignty is against the principles of parliamentary democracy. You claim that parliament voluntarily giving up some of it’s sovereignty to the EU is undemocratic and you and others claim that by leaving, parliament is regaining sovereignty. When it votes to enforce it’s sovereignty, you quickly adapt your stance to say, „but that doesn’t count when I think that it is not in my interest‘.

 

[Astute]

This isn't about Brexit, it's about parliamentary sovereignty. I would feel the same if a minister of any party had tried to pull this stunt over any issue. I can't believe you can't see it.

I can see the bigger picture.

As I said it was good that it was voted for. But a catastrophe if it fucks everything up.

The same people that were saying their biggest fear was a hard Brexit have suddenly changed their mind.

The politicians are not after what is best for us. Many don't even give a fuck about us. Only an idiot would try to deny this. But they could stop a decent deal going through and then blame the other side.

But as usual the most important thing is point scoring than common sense.

 

[Astute]

The bigger picture is the rule of law coming from parliament. An advisory referendum did not give a blank cheque. The vote will probably be respected, but parliament remains sovereign. To try and ignore that sovereignty is against the principles of parliamentary democracy. You claim that parliament voluntarily giving up some of it’s sovereignty to the EU is undemocratic and you and others claim that by leaving, parliament is regaining sovereignty. When it votes to enforce it’s sovereignty, you quickly adapt your stance to say, „but that doesn’t count when I think that it is not in my interest‘.

You say democracy is voting in MEP members and letting them get on with it. But in the UK democracy is voting in MP's and questioning what they should be getting on with.

So which one is it?

 

[clint van damme]

I can see the bigger picture.

As I said it was good that it was voted for. But a catastrophe if it fucks everything up.

The same people that were saying their biggest fear was a hard Brexit have suddenly changed their mind.

The politicians are not after what is best for us. Many don't even give a fuck about us. Only an idiot would try to deny this. But they could stop a decent deal going through and then blame the other side.

But as usual the most important thing is point scoring than common sense.

I haven't changed my mind about hard Brexit being a terrible scenario, but I think what Davis was trying to do is worse and I didn't anticipate a minister trying to pull a stunt like that.
I still don't believe this will lead to a hard Brexit or a no Brexit but we'll see.
I still want us to leave, not because I think it's the right think to do but because I think the result of the referendum should be respected.

It's not about point scoring, it's about maintaining sovereignty, something which many leave voters said was one of the main reasons for the leave vote. You can't bang on about sovereignty but then criticise it when it swings into action like the other night which is what many are doing.