The UK has a PM described as obsessed with immigration in her previous post, and all governments in Schengen, which is an open border agreement, have ID cards. It would appear that, in the case of the EU, it is the opposite of what you claim. The state knows where I live, but that is it. Apart from the taxman or social services if I were to claim anything. That level of control is normal and not excessive- as long as I don’t go against the very liberal constitution.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (154 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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The UK has a PM described as obsessed with immigration in her previous post, and all governments in Schengen, which is an open border agreement, have ID cards. It would appear that, in the case of the EU, it is the opposite of what you claim. The state knows where I live, but that is it. Apart from the taxman or social services if I were to claim anything. That level of control is normal and not excessive- as long as I don’t go against the very liberal constitution.
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest, who on here would be in favour of a complete worldwide open border policy, the absolute right to freedom of movement to and from any country, no questions asked?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
What do you think about the Snoopers Charter?
A lot of people are able to travel abroad using their ID card. How is that any different to a passport? Remove that and you've restricted movement.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
The EU is basically a form of prototype for what you’ve just described. One currency one government one army one president. Etc etc
No I wouldn’t want that personally. It causes all sorts of obvious problems from the start. How do you regulate anything. Anybody literally could be anybody. Basically if I could buy a ticket from England to China and committed a load of crimes, Who the hell knows who I am and where I’ve come from? Drugs? Illegal stuff? Anything bad?
It’s bascially a free for all extreme left wing anarchy is what your question poses. No laws no borders no nothing. It wouldn’t work.
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Absolutely against that. In the EU where there are common standards on many things and close police cooperation between member states, especially in Schengen, where you can fish criminals out - as in the case of Amri - is a different case.
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
But many serious criminals have walked into the UK from EU member states, many of whom have gone on to offend again.
The same EU that is a „protectionist racket“ led by the elite in the interests of big corporations? Is a prototype for extreme left wing anarchy with no laws or borders?
You leavers ought to work out a single story line between you.
Constantly contradicting yourselves.
The only thing you have kept to is „you lost, get over it.
Latest poll shows largest lead since the vote to remain.
Many UK criminals have been living in Spain for years. Many move around inside the UK. I am all for cooperation through things like Europol. We will never stop all criminals moving around, but all have shown their ID to get into the UK at border controls. It must be possible to increase EU cooperation, but leaving won’t stop anything- unless we ban tourism and trade.
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
I agree, my original question came with no hidden agenda, i asked it to try and get wide ranging response to something that interests me.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I'll tell you what is contradiction. The way the word democracy is used on here.
There is someone called Mart that if a vote goes the way he wants he calls it democracy. If it doesn't he tells you that there should be another vote. Or ignore the vote and don't allow another as the voters are idiots or ill informed.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
could you explain how it is "extreme left wing anarchy" or is that just more hyperbole?
Getting rid of borders and easier transportation of goods is definitely not left wing, neither is anarchy.
For what's it's worth I don't agree with it though I think losing the free movement of EU citizens will be a sad loss.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So the amount of criminals who went to Spain to spend their ill gotten gains and escape punishment normally kept their nose clean. Whereas those from the EU?
Romanian migrant raped woman in the UK days after release from prison in his home country
And there is nothing we can do about it
Romanian criminals avoid extradition under UK law
But at least they are not a danger to us....
Murderous Sinaloa Cartel uses Romanian criminals to smuggle cocaine through ports including Felixstowe and Harwich
Yeah. But it only affects junkies and those already into crime....
Operation GOLF – A UK and Romanian Joint Investigation Tackling Romanian Organised Crime and Child Trafficking - Together Against Trafficking in Human Beings - European Commission
Yeah but us law abiding citizens won't be affected.....
Revealed: The 17 most dangerous suspected criminals hiding out in the UK
But at least there isn't many of them here....
413,000 people from Romania and Bulgaria now living in UK
At least those who came here to work don't commit crimes.....
Crime boss brags about making £20,000 a day tricking drivers using key jammers
But it is worth it to have open borders....
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
it's not true that we can't stop criminals from the EU entering the country, we can.
Obviously it's not happening and it should be but it can be stopped. I don't think anyone can deny that the open border policy makes it easier for this type of person to evade the law.
So that’s it? Get rid of the 3 million EU citizens as these stories prove that they are criminals? Do you read your posts?
Amongst them were details of Juncker’s Commission‘s actions to clamp down on people trafficking. ( who are the customers btw? ).
The man trying to sell a device was „bragging“ as he thought he would get 500£. Yes these devices are being used everywhere by criminals, but they are not restricted to use by EU migrants. The Sun publishers are only interested in EU migrants though.
The 17 wanted men were wanted for crimes committed in other countries and were a reciprocal EU operation to that of the British and other police in Spain called Captura.
Putting out lists of criminals and crimes of one minority group is not a new idea. The NAZI Party, US American, Souh African and Rhodesian far right white racist groups along with our own National Front, British Movement etc. have been doing this or have used this tactic since way before your usage via social media. Add Earlsdon‘s and Captain Dart‘s sources as current users of the tactic.
Your sarcastic comments just show the level you are at. Totally brainwashed by the Brexit press.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So make your mind up.
We can stop criminals from coming in but open borders makes it easier?
Romanians can't be sent back whatever they do. Did you read the links? They have human rights. And we won't be able to do criminal checks on those who apply for residency as the EU won't allow it.
So we can't stop them from coming in and we can't remove them. Or is the person quoted who looks after their human rights lying?
But their rights are more important than our rights. Mart will tell you that. And Juncker tells us that it is a regrettable part to pay for having open borders. Bit a price worth paying he says.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Sarcastic?
They have been your views.
So the one with the jammer is living in Coventry. I would like to know which car wash place to keep away from. I only ever get my cars washed in these places and nearly always give at least a fiver tip as they work hard and do a good job. But this has made me think again.
And no. This isn't sarcasm either.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
what do you mean make your minds up, I was just pointing out that your statement, "we can't do anything about it", is incorrect.
And I haven't changed my mind, I said earlier in this thread we should spend more on border control, whether in or out of the EU. But that would mean diverting money from the top 1% wealth grab and this government isn't going to do that.
There is someone called Astute who cannot distinguish between vote and vetoe and who claims to a democrat.
The vote on letting parliament decide was dismissed by you in case the MPs didn’t vote the way you want at the end of negotiations. There may be a disaster if the MPs vote the wrong way.
Presumably you think the MPs would vote wrongly because they are selfish and only in it for themselves as you claim.
I keep pointing out that democracy is the right to choose, which includes reacting to changing situations. If you say that the advisory vote was binding for all eternity then you are missing the point of democracy. If the majority decide that Brexit is a car crash, then they have the right to stop it.
Why was the word advisory included in the referendum? It implies a get out clause in case we are heading for a cliff edge. That is what Parliament voted for. If not, why wasn’t the word binding used?
I notice the quotes from Astute do not include any about tax dodging by millionaires e.g. migrant newspaper owners with dual nationality.
Just sticks to Romanian peasants.
They are not necessarily my views. You just made that up again.
I use them as well. At the Butts and the Albanian at the Black Prince. Dead nice and a good job.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Not if you are a member state in the EU you can't...without their express agreement of course
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Wondered how long it would take before ypu threw that one in. Fact is - these polls were mostly suggesting remain victory before the actual referendum. The latter being the only one that counts!!!
Polls told us Clinton would beat Trump - and loads of other things before being left with egg on their face. Would YOU believe your future as told by a psychic...coz that's pretty much the same thing - prediction based upon what they are told...mostly unreliable!
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Really? Where does it say that? All I know is that you can trigger article 50
They weren’t that far out with Hillary and she did „win“ the popular vote. They weren’t that far out with the referendum, trouble is that people believed remain would win and maybe that’s why some didn’t vote. Of non voters the poll says 4:1 in favour of remain which implies that more remainers couldn’t be bothered to vote than leavers.
I don’t get where you get „mostly unreliable“ from. Is there a statistic for that? Why do we still bother with polls if they are mostly wrong?
Anyway, it is up to our system to see what happens next.
If there is a demand to exit Brexit, then it will show in future voting trends. If not, it will fade away. A lot depends on what happens with our economy. If people‘s wages don’t keep up with inflation and firms start to lay people off there will be discontent and possibly a backlash against the people who led us down this path. If things go the other way, remainers will just go quiet and we will move on.
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Astute
Well-Known Member
Border control?
So we can have extensive border controls for people of the EU?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Yeah.
So the millionaires are more dangerous than those I mentioned I suppose
But when I mention those from the EU committing fraud and tax avoidance the pro EU lot defend them.
Then you say there are no double standards from the pro EU lot.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So what have I made up? I posted the links.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
No, people from the EU are free to travel to this country. However, your statement that we can't stop criminals isn't true. We can stop EU citizens with criminal records entering the country.
I also pointed out, that even if we leave the EU, we will need to give customs the resources if we want more effective border control. Given this governments track record, I would say that is unlikely.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Astute
Well-Known Member
So how do we know who has a criminal record?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I've no idea. That wasn't my point, you said with regard to someone who had offended in this country after being released from jail in his home country we could not do anything about him coming here, that's not true.
I would imagine to check everyone coming in will require resources that customs don't have.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
They would never say it in print or public. They simply scheme things that way.
I say 'mostly' because of things like sponsors/commissioners having vested interests in the outcomes of the polls...they have become a tool to sway the not yet committed...or destabilise the committed. Don't trust the polls: the systemic issues that make voter surveys unreliable - & I personally don't bother much at all with polls.
The reason we as a nation voted out is largely down to things moving too fast in the opposite direction to what you describe...THAT sowed discontent among the less skilled & lower paid.
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Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Wasn’t Clinton 98% to win according to CNN? Funny YouTube video of that when they had to admit trump won. Idiots. She was never 98% likely to win in anyone’s poll.
Every poll had remain winning the EU ref and that was that. Polls are a good guide but not factual.
Every poll had remain winning the EU ref and that was that. Polls are a good guide but not factual.
Yeah.
So the millionaires are more dangerous than those I mentioned I suppose
But when I mention those from the EU committing fraud and tax avoidance the pro EU lot defend them.
Then you say there are no double standards from the pro EU lot.
No one defends tax dodging. Made it up again.
Where is the untruth? Making it up again.
She „won“.
No. It varied in 2016. Leave started doing well as from January. Remain as from Jo Cox‘s death. Then it was a slight lead and a slight loss until the day. Leave won by a small margin on the day